[REVIEW] Acebeam W10. 1KM of throw, in your front pocket. 21700/18650, USB-C charging.

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Firelight2
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djozz wrote:
Is this a double aspheric flashlight? I thought the optics is just a single lens projecting the laser-excited die ?

Agreed.

It’s not a double aspheric. It’s a laser that points backwards onto a phosphor plate. That phosphor emits light which goes out the single aspheric lens.

The tight beam comes from the very high intensity allowed by the LEP, which is about twice that of the most intense available LEDs.

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CarpentryHero wrote:
I see a lot of doubts about aspherics giving good throw, too be fare this and the weltool Lep fire the laser into the phosphor and intoa reflector that then sends it through the aspheric.

For a long long time I’ve been asking for a double aspheric lens flashlight to do what this is doing, a ridiculously tight beam in a narrow package. This does it even smaller.

Double aspheric lens had been the king of throw with led’s from 8 or 9 years ago. The setup was the a little bigger than an arm. It was a pencil beam with no spill.

I believe illum (illumination supply) had a code Spooky for Halloween for a discount.


There is no “reflector” in the weltool.
Unless you’re talking about the 45 degree mirror in the center of the lens which has literally nothing to do with the beam or throw.
djozz
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CarpentryHero wrote:

For a long long time I’ve been asking for a double aspheric lens flashlight to do what this is doing, a ridiculously tight beam in a narrow package. This does it even smaller.

Double aspheric lens had been the king of throw with led’s from 8 or 9 years ago. The setup was the a little bigger than an arm. It was a pencil beam with no spill.

I believe illum (illumination supply) had a code Spooky for Halloween for a discount.


Is a double aspheric a flashlight that first uses an internal lens to produce a virtual reduced image of the light source inside the flashlight head which is then projected into the world by a second front lens? I have never seen such a flashlight but it will take up quite some extra length (like several cm).
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A double aspheric cannot improve throw compared to a single aspheric of the same diameter.

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To date I’ve never scene one factory made, just hobbiest made.
Their was a tutorial someone did on YouTube called LightCannon. Had 5 or 6 parts to the video. But that wasn’t the first one ever made. That one looks like it’s almost 3 feet long.
The length between lenses probably varies based on the led

I’m glad I’m not the only flashlight collector out there, I was beginning to think I was strange.
My name is Kendall and I’m a Flashaholic from western Canada

djozz
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The_Driver wrote:
A double aspheric cannot improve throw compared to a single aspheric of the same diameter.

I believe it can if it is a two-stage system with an intermediate image. The first (very short focus) lens creates a reduced size intermediate image that is projected by the front lens of the light.

Edit: on second thoughts it will not work because the reduction step by the first lens requires a limited incoming beam angle, so the secondary virtual light source (the intermediate image) will be reduced in size but the luminance will be the same. netto result: lots of light wasted and a smaller hotspot but without throw increase.

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This is the lastest one that was made

https://youtu.be/H7YUapn6s8U

I’m glad I’m not the only flashlight collector out there, I was beginning to think I was strange.
My name is Kendall and I’m a Flashaholic from western Canada

djozz
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CarpentryHero wrote:
This is the lastest one that was made

https://youtu.be/H7YUapn6s8U


That is Endermann’s Optofire, it does not use a double aspheric lens, just a single aspheric lens for projecting the hotspot. It does include a Wavien collar but that is a completely different piece of optic, has nothing to do with the imaging of the led die.
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The_Driver wrote:
A double aspheric cannot improve throw compared to a single aspheric of the same diameter.

Depends on F#.
http://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1103112#comment-1103112
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It does the same principle as a double aspheric, Two focusing points.

I don’t think the original thread that someone did on double aspheric lenses survived in CandlePowerForums.

I’m glad I’m not the only flashlight collector out there, I was beginning to think I was strange.
My name is Kendall and I’m a Flashaholic from western Canada

Enderman
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Hi, I made the Lightcanon and the Optofire Smile
They don’t use double aspheric, they use a single aspheric and a wavien collar.
Only one focusing point.
The collar reflects unused light back at the LED, so the same focal point as before.

Something like this uses a double aspheric: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?422036-Mj%F6lnir-Cust...
The double aspheric system does not increase lux, it increases lumens.

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Enderman wrote:
Hi, I made the Lightcanon and the Optofire Smile
They don’t use double aspheric, they use a single aspheric and a wavien collar.
Only one focusing point.
The collar reflects unused light back at the LED, so the same focal point as before.

Something like this uses a double aspheric: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?422036-Mj%F6lnir-Cust...
The double aspheric system does not increase lux, it increases lumens.

The wavier collar reflecting the unused light back at the led until it makes it out in a specific direction, changes the beam pattern and refocuses the light, atleast that’s my understanding.

Double aspheric increases lumens that hit a specific spot so how does that not increase Lux.

I’m glad I’m not the only flashlight collector out there, I was beginning to think I was strange.
My name is Kendall and I’m a Flashaholic from western Canada

Enderman
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CarpentryHero wrote:

The wavier collar reflecting the unused light back at the led until it makes it out in a specific direction, changes the beam pattern and refocuses the light, atleast that’s my understanding.

Double aspheric increases lumens that hit a specific spot so how does that not increase Lux.


With a wavien collar the beam pattern does not change, nor does it refocus light.
Since it is all bounced back to the LED, the light that is bounced back increases the led intensity by bouncing off of the LED again.
Both before and after it is coming from the area of the LED, so the beam just becomes brighter and nothing else changes.

With a double aspheric you do get more lumens but they are not “in a specific spot”, they actually are spread out more.
If you compare a single aspheric to a double aspheric, the double aspheric will project more lumens but the projected spot of light is bigger.
It is a linear relationship, more lumens -> more area = same intensity.
Since lenses aren’t perfect having the second aspheric will slightly reduce the light transmission and total lux.

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Reflecting the light back at the led until it makes it out the hole, does change the beam though, your just running a reflector backwards creating a tighter hotspot.
Any kind of reflector will help throw light but they all change the beam in some way.
I don’t disagree that two lenses means light loss for each lense that the light passes through.

I’m glad I’m not the only flashlight collector out there, I was beginning to think I was strange.
My name is Kendall and I’m a Flashaholic from western Canada

djozz
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Quote:
ust running a reflector backwards creating a tighter hotspot.

No, no tighter hotspot, exactly the same size. Brighter but not tighter. The wavien collar is not part of the optical system that projects light from the led to the hotspot.
Agro
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No, not any reflector will help throw. In a lens light most reflectors will make just a secondary beam, that is: rings.
No, a properly focused collar used with a symmetric LED dies does not affect beam shape.
Why?

  • The light that would be originally in the beam – is unaffected. The collar reflects only the light that goes towards flashlight body.
  • The light reflected by the collar focuses on the LED. The LED’s phosphor absorbs the photons and re-emits them in a random direction. Some of them are re-emitteted towards the lens and increase throw – w/out affecting the beam. The others are lost and don’t affect the beam either.
  • There’s light not absorbed by phosphor, reflected off LED dome etc. It may bounce around the light several times, but it’s always LED-reflector path unless it goes from the LED towards the lens. In which case it increases throw w/out affecting the beam.

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djozz wrote:
Quote:
ust running a reflector backwards creating a tighter hotspot.
No, no tighter hotspot, exactly the same size. Brighter but not tighter. The wavien collar is not part of the optical system that projects light from the led to the hotspot.

The light must get through the collar, it’s not magic, it makes it brighter by refocusing the light out an opening at the end. It doesn’t create lumens, it’s gathering up the stragglers and putting them in a narrower path. It definitely still requires an aspheric lens to create a tight beam.

Same thing the first of two aspheric lenses would do but more efficiently

I’m glad I’m not the only flashlight collector out there, I was beginning to think I was strange.
My name is Kendall and I’m a Flashaholic from western Canada

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Agro wrote:
No, not any reflector will help throw. In a lens light most reflectors will make just a secondary beam, that is: rings.
No, a properly focused collar used with a symmetric LED dies does not affect beam shape.
Why?
  • The light that would be originally in the beam – is unaffected. The collar reflects only the light that goes towards flashlight body.
  • The light reflected by the collar focuses on the LED. The LED’s phosphor absorbs the photons and re-emits them in a random direction. Some of them are re-emitteted towards the lens and increase throw – w/out affecting the beam. The others are lost and don’t affect the beam either.
  • There’s light not absorbed by phosphor, reflected off LED dome etc. It may bounce around the light several times, but it’s always LED-reflector path unless it goes from the LED towards the lens. In which case it increases throw w/out affecting the beam.

I agree but I’m not talking any reflector and an aspheric lense, I was just saying that, by it reflecting it back at the source until it heads out the end of the collar (which is a backwards reflector) your focusing the beam.

Considering it culminated all the light and projects it out too the lens, how am I wrong by saying it’s creating a tighter beam. It’s functionally a projector before it gets to the lens

I’m glad I’m not the only flashlight collector out there, I was beginning to think I was strange.
My name is Kendall and I’m a Flashaholic from western Canada

The_Driver
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Enderman wrote:
Hi, I made the Lightcanon and the Optofire Smile
They don’t use double aspheric, they use a single aspheric and a wavien collar.
Only one focusing point.
The collar reflects unused light back at the LED, so the same focal point as before.

Something like this uses a double aspheric: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?422036-Mj%F6lnir-Cust...
The double aspheric system does not increase lux, it increases lumens.

The small lens (we call it “pre-collimator”) needs to be spherical, not aspherical. That is how Vinz always did it. I have also had a light made using such a second lens. It works great for the focused mode but makes the defossused mode a bit more ugly.

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CarpentryHero wrote:
Agro wrote:
No, not any reflector will help throw. In a lens light most reflectors will make just a secondary beam, that is: rings.
No, a properly focused collar used with a symmetric LED dies does not affect beam shape.
Why?
  • The light that would be originally in the beam – is unaffected. The collar reflects only the light that goes towards flashlight body.
  • The light reflected by the collar focuses on the LED. The LED’s phosphor absorbs the photons and re-emits them in a random direction. Some of them are re-emitteted towards the lens and increase throw – w/out affecting the beam. The others are lost and don’t affect the beam either.
  • There’s light not absorbed by phosphor, reflected off LED dome etc. It may bounce around the light several times, but it’s always LED-reflector path unless it goes from the LED towards the lens. In which case it increases throw w/out affecting the beam.

I agree but I’m not talking any reflector and an aspheric lense, I was just saying that, by it reflecting it back at the source until it heads out the end of the collar (which is a backwards reflector) your focusing the beam.

Considering it culminated all the light and projects it out too the lens, how am I wrong by saying it’s creating a tighter beam. It’s functionally a projector before it gets to the lens

These effects are seperate. The additional light coming out of the opening is created by the blue part of the spectrum of the LED hitting it again and being converted to more yellow-green light (it changes direction after the conversion, it’s scattered). This increases the intensity and also dramatically changes the tint (more yellow-green).

If you used a mirror (collar) that doesn’t reflect the blue part of the spectrum there wouldn’t be a large increase in Luminance. You would just cut off 75% of the LEDs total emitted light.

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Changing the tint doesn’t add brightness though, so it is infact pulling light that would be in the spill and putting into the main beam.

I don’t think it would cut brightness, unless your converting light that’s not in our visible spectrum into seeable and usable light. But Led’s Don’t have that

I’m glad I’m not the only flashlight collector out there, I was beginning to think I was strange.
My name is Kendall and I’m a Flashaholic from western Canada

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This is a great torch. Buy it and don’t worry (just don’t expect much spill). lol

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CarpentryHero wrote:
Changing the tint doesn’t add brightness though, so it is infact pulling light that would be in the spill and putting into the main beam.

I don’t think it would cut brightness, unless your converting light that’s not in our visible spectrum into seeable and usable light. But Led’s Don’t have that


The light that the wavien collar collects would not be spill.
It would hit the inside of the head of the flashlight and be completely wasted.
This light does not come out of the flashlight because it does not go through the lens.

A collar reflects the light back at the LED projecting the exact same image of the die on the LED.
It does not make a smaller spot or a different beam, it just makes the LED brighter, and the projected spot brighter.

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Enderman wrote:
CarpentryHero wrote:
Changing the tint doesn’t add brightness though, so it is infact pulling light that would be in the spill and putting into the main beam.

I don’t think it would cut brightness, unless your converting light that’s not in our visible spectrum into seeable and usable light. But Led’s Don’t have that


The light that the wavien collar collects would not be spill.
It would hit the inside of the head of the flashlight and be completely wasted.
This light does not come out of the flashlight because it does not go through the lens.

A collar reflects the light back at the LED projecting the exact same image of the die on the LED.
It does not make a smaller spot or a different beam, it just makes the LED brighter, and the projected spot brighter.

The spill of a beam is the light that hits the inside of the head, so why are you saying no? I’ll reword it one more time. Your Wavian collar, collects the light, aims it at the lens. Preventing waste, in essence projecting it onto the lens.
So please stop saying it doesn’t. You are redirecting output so less is wasted, I don’t no why you keep disagreeing then rewording it. Makes me feel like I’m dyslexic up in here.

It’s definitely more efficient then using a small aspheric lens close to the led, then a second one for final focus. It’s doing the same job just more efficiently. If you don’t believe me that’s fine, it’s an idea someone much smarter than me came up with close to a decade ago.

I’m glad I’m not the only flashlight collector out there, I was beginning to think I was strange.
My name is Kendall and I’m a Flashaholic from western Canada

djozz
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Quote:
Your Wavian collar, collects the light, aims it at the lens

No, it collects light and aims it back to the led die. In the die most of this light is absorbed and converted to the different colour and then send out again in random direction. Please accept that that is a completely different, and much more going on both physically and optically than simply “collects and aimed at the lens”.
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CarpentryHero wrote:
Enderman wrote:
CarpentryHero wrote:
Changing the tint doesn’t add brightness though, so it is infact pulling light that would be in the spill and putting into the main beam.

I don’t think it would cut brightness, unless your converting light that’s not in our visible spectrum into seeable and usable light. But Led’s Don’t have that


The light that the wavien collar collects would not be spill.
It would hit the inside of the head of the flashlight and be completely wasted.
This light does not come out of the flashlight because it does not go through the lens.

A collar reflects the light back at the LED projecting the exact same image of the die on the LED.
It does not make a smaller spot or a different beam, it just makes the LED brighter, and the projected spot brighter.

The spill of a beam is the light that hits the inside of the head, so why are you saying no? I’ll reword it one more time. Your Wavian collar, collects the light, aims it at the lens. Preventing waste, in essence projecting it onto the lens.
So please stop saying it doesn’t. You are redirecting output so less is wasted, I don’t no why you keep disagreeing then rewording it. Makes me feel like I’m dyslexic up in here.

It’s definitely more efficient then using a small aspheric lens close to the led, then a second one for final focus. It’s doing the same job just more efficiently. If you don’t believe me that’s fine, it’s an idea someone much smarter than me came up with close to a decade ago.

You are using the wrong technical terms. Spill is part of the light that has already exited the flashlight. The term has no meaning inside the light. It only pertains to lights that have a normal, front-facing reflector (spill is the light that doesn’t hit such a normal reflector, it directly exits the flashlight).

The collar only works because the phosphor of the LED is excited additionally by redirected blue light. The phosphor is not a mirror, it doesn’t reflect a lot of light.

The Wavien collar collects 75% of the total amount of light that a domeless LED emits. The blue part of this 75% re-exites the Phosphor which doubles the Luminance. Thus the 25% of the total light that directly exits the collar (and can then hit a lens) is effectively doubled.

This means the collar is around 50% efficient in terms of lumens (total amount of light).

To understand how it works you need to understand what Luminance is/means.

CarpentryHero
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djozz wrote:
Quote:
Your Wavian collar, collects the light, aims it at the lens
No, it collects light and aims it back to the led die. In the die most of this light is absorbed and converted to the different colour and then send out again in random direction. Please accept that that is a completely different, and much more going on both physically and optically than simply “collects and aimed at the lens”.

The exit of the collar is smaller, and as such does cut the directionality of the light, negating most of 180 degrees, so stop saying no. Put the wave an collar on without the lens and look at the wall, then take it off. You’ll see a huge difference in the direction of the beam.
Especially on the scale of the light cannon.

I’m glad I’m not the only flashlight collector out there, I was beginning to think I was strange.
My name is Kendall and I’m a Flashaholic from western Canada

CarpentryHero
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The_Driver wrote:
CarpentryHero wrote:
Enderman wrote:
CarpentryHero wrote:
Changing the tint doesn’t add brightness though, so it is infact pulling light that would be in the spill and putting into the main beam.

I don’t think it would cut brightness, unless your converting light that’s not in our visible spectrum into seeable and usable light. But Led’s Don’t have that


The light that the wavien collar collects would not be spill.
It would hit the inside of the head of the flashlight and be completely wasted.
This light does not come out of the flashlight because it does not go through the lens.

A collar reflects the light back at the LED projecting the exact same image of the die on the LED.
It does not make a smaller spot or a different beam, it just makes the LED brighter, and the projected spot brighter.

The spill of a beam is the light that hits the inside of the head, so why are you saying no? I’ll reword it one more time. Your Wavian collar, collects the light, aims it at the lens. Preventing waste, in essence projecting it onto the lens.
So please stop saying it doesn’t. You are redirecting output so less is wasted, I don’t no why you keep disagreeing then rewording it. Makes me feel like I’m dyslexic up in here.

It’s definitely more efficient then using a small aspheric lens close to the led, then a second one for final focus. It’s doing the same job just more efficiently. If you don’t believe me that’s fine, it’s an idea someone much smarter than me came up with close to a decade ago.

You are using the wrong technical terms. Spill is part of the light that has already exited the flashlight. The term has no meaning inside the light. It only pertains to lights that have a normal, front-facing reflector (spill is the light that doesn’t hit such a normal reflector, it directly exits the flashlight).

The collar only works because the phosphor of the LED is excited additionally by redirected blue light. The phosphor is not a mirror, it doesn’t reflect a lot of light.

The Wavien collar collects 75% of the total amount of light that a domeless LED emits. The blue part of this 75% re-exites the Phosphor which doubles the Luminance. Thus the 25% of the total light that directly exits the collar (and can then hit a lens) is effectively doubled.

This means the collar is around 50% efficient in terms of lumens (total amount of light).

To understand how it works you need to understand what Luminance is/means.

Taking a 180 degrees and turning it into 25% of that is still focusing the beam though, whether theirs more going on or not. I’ve never questioned the efficiency of the collar. Only suggesting that it does infact refocus the light direction.

I’m glad I’m not the only flashlight collector out there, I was beginning to think I was strange.
My name is Kendall and I’m a Flashaholic from western Canada

djozz
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Quote:
Taking a 180 degrees and turning it into 25% of that

…is not focussing, it is called cutting off.

It is impossible to discuss matter if not the accepted terminology is followed, discussions are already hard enough when correct terms are used.

CarpentryHero
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djozz wrote:
Quote:
Taking a 180 degrees and turning it into 25% of that

…is not focussing, it is called cutting off.

It is impossible to discuss matter if not the accepted terminology is followed, discussions are already hard enough when correct terms are used.

Fair enough, you tried to help and I appreciate it

I’m glad I’m not the only flashlight collector out there, I was beginning to think I was strange.
My name is Kendall and I’m a Flashaholic from western Canada

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