Noctigon K1 info / review

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drewpawlow
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Yours isn’t broken. I get the same hole in the center at very close distances in Convoy L2, C8 and P60 builds using the CSLPM1 and CSLNM1. Not sure why it happens, guessing it has something to do with the height of the emitter. But I’m probably wrong.

p60 isn’t dead

noboneshotdog
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Here are the specs from Hanks sales link.

W1 (Osram CSLNM1.TG): 900lm, Lux : 650kcd

W2 (Osram CSLPM1.TG): 1400lm, Lux: 550kcd

Thier ain’t no bones in a hot dog. F. York

TMaxxJJ
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I wish this was going to be available with the Osram at warmer (even neutral) tints. Is there any particular reason as to why the white flat isn’t or can’t be available at 4000-5000k?

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twisted raven wrote:
The hole in the beam from such close distance isn’t from having a defective unit, that’s just how well-focused beams look at close range. Having used an Acebeam T21 and Maxtoch X Pro modified with Black Flat and White Flat 2mm accordingly, I can attest to that artifact.

The second graph doesn’t make it seem too regulated on highest output? Unless the second graph is with the warm room thermal regulation as well.

drewpawlow wrote:
Yours isn’t broken. I get the same hole in the center at very close distances in Convoy L2, C8 and P60 builds using the CSLPM1 and CSLNM1. Not sure why it happens, guessing it has something to do with the height of the emitter. But I’m probably wrong.

She was joking. Read the last part of her post.
“This light is not meant to be used for up-close work. Because it’s a dedicated thrower, the hotspot is small and intense. It takes a few meters for the beam to collimate, and up-close it makes a donut-shaped beam. This is totally normal for throwers, but it may be unexpected for anyone who hasn’t used a long-range thrower before.”

BurningPlayd0h
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SammysHP wrote:
BurningPlayd0h wrote:
It’s not using linear regulators, but rather a FET + sense resistor for determining current IIRC? Like the recent Convoy drivers do.
You can think of the FET in this case like a variable resistor that adjusts its value so that it allows a fixed current to flow. And that’s a linear regulator.

Interesting, I didn’t realize it would still burn off the excess voltage in the same way. I suppose you get the advantage of constant current instead of PWM but that has it’s downsides (like tint shift with changing current) too.

TMaxxJJ wrote:
I wish this was going to be available with the Osram at warmer (even neutral) tints. Is there any particular reason as to why the white flat isn’t or can’t be available at 4000-5000k?

Because Osram hasn’t produced it at those tints. I doubt there is a physical/engineering reason why they can’t, as they’ve had emitters with very high luminance and 95+ CRI in warm tints.

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Those lumen numbers seem too high for the Osrams.

Hank, what tint and flux bin are the Osram 1mm and 2mm?

TMaxxJJ
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BurningPlayd0h wrote:
TMaxxJJ wrote:
I wish this was going to be available with the Osram at warmer (even neutral) tints. Is there any particular reason as to why the white flat isn’t or can’t be available at 4000-5000k?

Because Osram hasn’t produced it at those tints. I doubt there is a physical/engineering reason why they can’t, as they’ve had emitters with very high luminance and 95+ CRI in warm tints.

That’s what I mean. It seems odd because these emitters are designed for throwers (or at least perfect to use in them), and we know that warmer temps are better for throwers. So if there is no physical/engineering reason why they can’t be made, why haven’t they?

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SKV89 wrote:
Those lumen numbers seem too high for the Osrams.

Hank, what tint and flux bin are the Osram 1mm and 2mm?

They are listed at 6000k tint. Check out: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/63255

900 and 1400 lumens seems reasonable.

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twisted raven wrote:
The hole in the beam from such close distance …
drewpawlow wrote:
Yours isn’t broken. I get the same hole …

That part was a joke. Smile

(edit: added a smiley to the OP to make it more obvious that I don’t actually think it’s broken … it’s mostly just demonstrating why throwers aren’t used at close range)

twisted raven wrote:
The second graph doesn’t make it seem too regulated on highest output?

I’ll see if I can find a higher-amp cell for another turbo test.

Like all linear regulated drivers, it stays in regulation until the battery voltage falls below the emitter Vf. The amount of time it stays flat depends almost entirely on which battery is used.

I don’t have any high-amp 21700 batteries though, which are what you’d want if the goal is the longest regulation period on turbo. I only have high-energy (high mAh) cells, which give longer overall runtime with less heat, and are better for every mode except turbo.

In any case, I hope to add more runtime tests to the graph. It takes a while to run each test and recharge the cell though.

SammysHP wrote:

Why would you want to do that?

That part is hidden inside the light while it’s assembled, with no risk of shorting. While it’s split into two pieces though, it wouldn’t be a good idea to carry the handle by itself. It would get thread lube all over, and could get lint in the USB port. It’s not meant to be carried around like that.

At minimum, loosen the tailcap before trying to carry the detached handle in a pocket.

Thetasigma wrote:
The cool white is a non-start for me

That’s fair. However, it’s not a cold blue tint like an Olight. I find it looks surprisingly good during use.

Other LED options are coming though, for people who want a lower color temperature and are willing to give up some throw. The one reviewed here is the version optimized for maximum throw.

This is my first Osram White Flat light, and mostly I’m just amazed how such a small light can actually compete against a massive thrower like the BLF GT.

JordanZHP wrote:
Now I need to decide if I go with the Osram leds or wait for something with more lumens…

More lumens or more throw… pick one.

I know which one I prefer for this light — definitely throw. But I recognize that not everyone will want to max out one characteristic… it’s okay to trade some performance for a more balanced result.

EasyB wrote:
Is this the first implementation of ramping FW in a constant current FET driver? It’s great that each mode is regulated, but if you don’t know the current at a given mode doesn’t that defeat some of the purpose of regulation? Like … modes so I know I have the brightest light for a 1 or 2 hour ride.

I’m not sure if it’s the first with smooth ramping. However, there is also a stepped ramp which is there specifically to make output consistent and runtimes predictable. If you want to know how much runtime to expect, use the stepped ramp.

There is also a “manual memory” function which can be used to make the light turn on at the same level every time. This keeps the output and runtime even more consistent, since you can save a favorite level and have a shortcut to it. Simply go to the level you want to save, then click 5 times. Then every time it turns on with a click, it’ll go to that level.

will34 wrote:
Does the W2 version use the same driver just tuned differently? I read people were direct driving this one and performed fine, so no need for a linear type driver?

Not sure, since I haven’t tried the W2 version. Hank says the W2 regulates to 7.8A instead of 4.9A though.

About direct driving though, it might be safe when using a low-amp cell, but even my weak 48G can overdrive a 1mm White Flat a little bit beyond what is safe, and that quickly reduces the LED’s life span and performance. Also, an unregulated FET PWM driver doesn’t get flat output on any mode, so the output will always be different.

With a higher-amp cell, it’s definitely not a good idea to direct drive a White Flat. It can turn the LED into smoke pretty quickly. However, high-amp cells are fine in this light. The power regulation keeps the LED safe. It also makes the driver heat up faster though, so people may find that high-amp cells might cause thermal regulation to decrease output even when the light doesn’t seem hot.

TMaxxJJ wrote:
we know that warmer temps are better for throwers.

That’s debatable. Cooler tints have more Rayleigh scattering, but cooler tints also make more lumens. Real-world measurements have shown that cool white throwers work pretty well. If DB Custom is around, he might have some test results to share.

Having tried both 4000K and 6000K throwers, I don’t see any difference aside from color. However, after using throwers with both XHP35 HI and White Flat, there’s a huge difference in performance per gram and per Watt. The larger emitter requires a much larger host and/or much higher power usage in order to reach the same level of throw.

With the LEDs on the market today, it’s basically a choice between two things:

  • Warmer color temperature
  • Smaller host

When I want a thrower, I’ll generally grab the smallest one which throws far enough for my needs. This tiny White Flat LED allows me to have a host half as large as I would otherwise need, and I think that’s a pretty worthwhile benefit. It’s the difference between carrying the K1 in my coat pocket or having to bring a backpack to carry the GT.

lawallac
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Order placed! I was hoping it would come in a bit less expensive, but this is really a bargain for a 650k lux pocketable light. My first megathrower was the original DEFT and that was what 100-150k lux for the first ones and gladly throw $350 or so to get one of those.

What i’m curious about is how much this appears to beat the D1S i have that I put the same led into. I think the D1s is around 300k lux. So I’m thinking this will appear about 25% more throw. But perception is always weird. I’ve become a fan of Emisar/Noctigon stuff because it comes with some of the most impressive specs, but also really nice quality for the price.

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ToyKeeper wrote:

I don’t have any high-amp 21700 batteries though, which are what you’d want if the goal is the longest regulation period on turbo. I only have high-energy (high mAh) cells, which give longer overall runtime with less heat, and are better for every mode except turbo.

Let’s be honest though, on such a pencil beam thrower, the only mode we want is turbo. It’s not like it’s an edc or big bulky search and rescue light with a broader beam and more output.

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twisted raven wrote:
Let’s be honest though, on such a pencil beam thrower, the only mode we want is turbo.

True. On/off is enough.
Mike

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BurningPlayd0h
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TMaxxJJ wrote:
BurningPlayd0h wrote:
TMaxxJJ wrote:
I wish this was going to be available with the Osram at warmer (even neutral) tints. Is there any particular reason as to why the white flat isn’t or can’t be available at 4000-5000k?

Because Osram hasn’t produced it at those tints. I doubt there is a physical/engineering reason why they can’t, as they’ve had emitters with very high luminance and 95+ CRI in warm tints.

That’s what I mean. It seems odd because these emitters are designed for throwers (or at least perfect to use in them), and we know that warmer temps are better for throwers. So if there is no physical/engineering reason why they can’t be made, why haven’t they?

Flashlights are a TINY portion of overall LED production, very specialized models like are common here are a TINY portion of that.

These are designed for very directional lighting, possibly for car headlights? Not all of these emitters are made to be adapted to every purpose like indoor lighting where warm white is common.

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sp5it wrote:
twisted raven wrote:
Let’s be honest though, on such a pencil beam thrower, the only mode we want is turbo.
True. On/off is enough. Mike

Not for me. I use my GT Mini for my nightly strolls. I have miles of unlighted sidewalks (the realtors now call sidewalks “walking trails”, but I’m old and will continue to call them sidewalks), running throughout my neighborhood. I don’t have to use the light all the time, and I use very low most of the time until I get to the lakes area and look for critters in the water or along the banks, then I use turbo. That’s what makes Anduril so great. I can long press to turn on the lowest level, single click to turn on at my own preset level, or double click to get full power. It looks like this new light will replace my GT Mini.

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So according to the specs the WF2 throws 1483m and the WF1 does 1612m. Only 8.7% more throw. Wonder if the difference will be noticeable in real life.

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twisted raven wrote:
ToyKeeper wrote:
high-energy (high mAh) cells … are better for every mode except turbo.

Let’s be honest though, on such a pencil beam thrower, the only mode we want is turbo.

Let’s be even more honest though. The difference between a flat “turbo” graph and a non-flat “turbo” graph is that one of the two is artificially limited. It could do more, but it doesn’t. So it’s debatable whether it should even count as “turbo” or if it’s just “100%”, since turbo kind of implies that it’s higher than what can be sustained long-term.

I see this point come up for every hot rod light, and it seems to be more about psychology than technology.

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ToyKeeper wrote:
twisted raven wrote:
ToyKeeper wrote:
high-energy (high mAh) cells … are better for every mode except turbo.

Let’s be honest though, on such a pencil beam thrower, the only mode we want is turbo.

Let’s be even more honest though. The difference between a flat “turbo” graph and a non-flat “turbo” graph is that one of the two is artificially limited. It could do more, but it doesn’t. So it’s debatable whether it should even count as “turbo” or if it’s just “100%”, since turbo kind of implies that it’s higher than what can be sustained long-term.

I see this point come up for every hot rod light, and it seems to be more about psychology than technology.

Hot Rods……WOT…. Silly

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visicology?
perscepticology?
uberception?
farcology?

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Do I need it no. Do I want it yeah

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polarweis wrote:
Do I need it no. Do I want it yeah

pretty much all of us on this forum 99% of the time Big Smile
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Th558 wrote:
polarweis wrote:
Do I need it no. Do I want it yeah
pretty much all of us on this forum 99% of the time Big Smile

If you are on this forum you hit that point very quickly Wink

idleprocess
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I randomly hit up intl-outdoor’s website and what do you know, there’s a new product!

I scoffed at the GT because of the size and the astronomical price. This however is tempting because it suffers neither of those downsides – and I don’t particularly need a thrower.

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I found a 21700 cell I had forgotten about — a Samsung 50E. It may not be much higher-amp than the 48G, but it should still be pretty good. So I’ll try to do runtime output tests with it instead.

In any case, even the weak 48G appears to get pretty flat output at all levels up to 7 (out of 7). It’s only turbo where it gets a more direct-drive-like curve.

High-amp cells like the 40T and 30T should stay pretty flat regardless of what level they’re running at. At least, until the battery is actually low.

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ToyKeeper wrote:

Why would you want to do that?

That part is hidden inside the light while it’s assembled, with no risk of shorting. While it’s split into two pieces though, it wouldn’t be a good idea to carry the handle by itself. It would get thread lube all over, and could get lint in the USB port. It’s not meant to be carried around like that.

At minimum, loosen the tailcap before trying to carry the detached handle in a pocket.

You cannot always guarantee a clean environment, for example while camping in a small tent. Built-in charging allows to charge the flashlight on-the-go where you don’t have a fireproof, non-conducting space.

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Wow!

What I wonder is if and when there will be a version of the D4 that takes 21700, has onboard charging and the switch that shows charge levels?

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ToyKeeper wrote:

Why would you want to do that?

That part is hidden inside the light while it’s assembled, with no risk of shorting. While it’s split into two pieces though, it wouldn’t be a good idea to carry the handle by itself. It would get thread lube all over, and could get lint in the USB port. It’s not meant to be carried around like that.

At minimum, loosen the tailcap before trying to carry the detached handle in a pocket.


I share Sammy’s sentiment and your lube remark made it very clear that this style of charging is simply incompatible with one of my most important use cases.
I frequently charge things from powerbanks in tent. The item tends to lie on the tent floor together with 100 other things, some of which may be conductive. A flashlight, unless very small, is too heavy to be put in the tent pocket because it will pull the side wall. While moving around the tent stuff gets kicked around.

With such design a short would be unlikely but possible. Getting stuff dirty with lube would be certain.

I used to be a big fan of how Zanflare F1 did their charging. Now I like it even more.

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BurningPlayd0h wrote:
Flashlights are a TINY portion of overall LED production, very specialized models like are common here are a TINY portion of that.

Agreed. I seriously doubt that flashlights have played a dominant role in the LED industry’s design decisions since the original Luxeons (I, V Portable, III) were introduced circa 2004 and you’d pay dearly for anything capable of >100 lumens per emitter. Times have changed, Lumileds has shrank from their once-dominant position, and with Moore’s Law like leaps in performance some ~15 years later we’re seeing some ~10 times the performance at a fraction of the absolute price, which has opened numerous markets to LED lighting.

Mercifully, there’s still demand for LEDs convenient to flashlights in the larger market.

BurningPlayd0h wrote:
These are designed for very directional lighting, possibly for car headlights? Not all of these emitters are made to be adapted to every purpose like indoor lighting where warm white is common.

I would tend to assume so as well, given that Osram is a player in the automotive market. One of the vexing problems with automotive lighting is that of precise control over output, which is easier done with a point source than a 1D source (i.e. halogen filament) and especially a 2D source (i.e. LED die). LED headlights are indeed a thing, but they’ve not yet dethroned HID when it comes to tight control over light distribution since their cd/mm² is still lower and they’ve yet to emulate HID’s quasi-point source nature. Based on the throw that the K1 seemingly manages with such a small reflector, this LED has closed the gap significantly.

However, it’s worth noting that one of the more prominent application notes on Osram’s product page suggest that projectors (as in digital projectors like you’d see in a conference room) are a target market for this LED. The 6000K CCT is convenient for this application since that’s close to the typical monitor default of 6500K. Much like vehicle headlamps. projectors benefit from point light sources – and previously used xenon short arc bulbs almost exclusively, which are even closer to being a point source than HID.

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Agro wrote:
ToyKeeper wrote:

Why would you want to do that?

That part is hidden inside the light while it’s assembled, with no risk of shorting. While it’s split into two pieces though, it wouldn’t be a good idea to carry the handle by itself. It would get thread lube all over, and could get lint in the USB port. It’s not meant to be carried around like that.

At minimum, loosen the tailcap before trying to carry the detached handle in a pocket.


I share Sammy’s sentiment and your lube remark made it very clear that this style of charging is simply incompatible with one of my most important use cases.
I frequently charge things from powerbanks in tent. The item tends to lie on the tent floor together with 100 other things, some of which may be conductive. A flashlight, unless very small, is too heavy to be put in the tent pocket because it will pull the side wall. While moving around the tent stuff gets kicked around.

With such design a short would be unlikely but possible. Getting stuff dirty with lube would be certain.

I used to be a big fan of how Zanflare F1 did their charging. Now I like it even more.

I see your point but I don’t get your use case. You’d need a hell of a long camping trip to have to recharge this light in a tent, and charging over USB is way less efficient than just carrying a spare cell.

Find all my reviews of flashlights and more gear at www.bmengineer.com

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My remark was more general about this style of USB port in flashlights rather than this flashlight in particular. I did reference its size though I meant more size than the flashlight.
Unless a new emitter option shows up I’m not buying K1 simply because its beam is too narrow for my uses. And in most of uses flashlight is the source of power for other items. And sometimes I charge one flashlight with another simply because it’s easier for me to carry spares in one size. Though that doesn’t happen too often.

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A small pouch should solve the tent-charging thing

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