Neal's Gadget silence

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ToyKeeper
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Mark M wrote:
disinformation…
Our world is in a very sad state.

Yeah. Sad

Lies spread like the flu, while truth comes limping behind.

It was once a common theory that people believed ridiculous things because they didn’t have access to information. But now we have the internet, detailed info about almost every topic at our fingertips… and it seems the issue has only gotten worse. Whatever it is that causes ignorance, it isn’t a lack of access to information.

In some cases, there’s literally hundreds or thousands of years of solid evidence proving that an idea is false, and people believe it anyway. For example, the idea that the Earth is flat. But tell someone their idea is false, and present the evidence, and they go “Hey, you’re not the thought police! You can’t tell me what to think! That’s just your opinion!”

Sigh.

I don’t know what makes people behave like that. It’s like they have a broken immune system — but for information. So they pick up whatever information illnesses they’re exposed to and then spread it to others with similar weaknesses. And much of the time, these infoviruses end up being permanent or at least take a very long time to heal.

I also don’t know how to solve it. But we can at least reduce the chance of getting sick by practicing good information hygiene. As for what that means, well, getting info about controversial topics from whoever writes the juiciest tweets … is not good information hygiene. Accurate information is rarely juicy; usually it’s dull and dry.

For anyone interested in getting a booster shot for their information immune system, here’s a video tutorial about navigating digital information.

Mark M
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I am just old enough that I grew up in the 90s with unfettered access to the internet. In those days modem speed was rated in baud. Back then on Usenet and bulletin board systems, accuracy was the currency of the day and everyone sought the truth. Then in the late 90s or early 2000s the internet became so popular everyone had access and not just technophiles. Now it seems that bots have taken over and people lack the tools to discern real information from false information.

Maybe it was just that people who had access back then were the ones who tended to be educated. But now everyone has access to the internet and these same people demand that the information they spew carries the same weight as subject experts. I agree that something is fundamentally broken and I am not sure it can be fixed, but I hope the loud few who spread the truth can teach those who don’t care or choose not to care.

Everyday I work with professionals who are more educated and even more intelligent than I am. I try very hard to learn everything I can from them. Anytime I am corrected by one of them it makes me happy that I have learned something new, even if it bruises my ego. I only wish most people felt this way.

BOO5TED
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G0OSE wrote:
That’s not how it works with Paypal. Neal had his chance to resolve it, he didn’t bother so lost the case. The buyer gets a refund and keeps the item.

So you’re saying he got a light for free then? He complained little and get a refund but refuse to send the light back? Who’s in the wrong now?

Just sayin’.

"America has three cities, New York, San Francisco and New Orleans. Everywhere else is Cleveland."- Tennessee Williams

 

 

AbnInfantry
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BOO5TED wrote:
You complain little and get a refund but refuse to send the light back? Who’s in the wrong now?

Where did G0OSE say he “refused” to send the light back? What I read was that Neal failed to respond to a PayPal dispute. In that case PayPal resolves the dispute in the buyer’s favor, issues a refund, and no return is required. How does that make the customer “in the wrong”? There’s also the pesky fact that returning a typical flashlight to China from the USA or Europe will cost more than the price of the flashlight.

Kevin Z
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BOO5TED wrote:
G0OSE wrote:
That’s not how it works with Paypal. Neal had his chance to resolve it, he didn’t bother so lost the case. The buyer gets a refund and keeps the item.

So you’re saying you got a light for free then? You complain little and get a refund but refuse to send the light back? Who’s in the wrong now?

Just sayin’.


That’s called compensation, neal had plenty of chances to sort it out , he didn’t so Paypal did.
fazalmajid
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ToyKeeper wrote:
Lies spread like the flu, while truth comes limping behind.

It was once a common theory that people believed ridiculous things because they didn’t have access to information. But now we have the internet, detailed info about almost every topic at our fingertips… and it seems the issue has only gotten worse. Whatever it is that causes ignorance, it isn’t a lack of access to information.

To be fair, much (most?) of that information is untrue.

Quote:
In some cases, there’s literally hundreds or thousands of years of solid evidence proving that an idea is false, and people believe it anyway. For example, the idea that the Earth is flat. But tell someone their idea is false, and present the evidence, and they go “Hey, you’re not the thought police! You can’t tell me what to think! That’s just your opinion!”

Most people don’t want the truth, they want confirmation, which is more comfortable. Things like tribal identity are handled by the reptilian brain and not susceptible to rational argument.

Quote:
I don’t know what makes people behave like that. It’s like they have a broken immune system — but for information. So they pick up whatever information illnesses they’re exposed to and then spread it to others with similar weaknesses. And much of the time, these infoviruses end up being permanent or at least take a very long time to heal.

I also don’t know how to solve it. But we can at least reduce the chance of getting sick by practicing good information hygiene. As for what that means, well, getting info about controversial topics from whoever writes the juiciest tweets … is not good information hygiene. Accurate information is rarely juicy; usually it’s dull and dry.

Epistemology is hard. Logic is hard. You can only do this for yourself, by opening yourself to multiple points of view, including those you disagree with and take you outside your comfort zone. As for others, it is almost impossible to do so, only if a leader from their own tribe has a change of heart will they reconsider.

The real problem is hucksters, politicians and others who cynically exploit these biases for personal gain or power. As long as the incentives are there, they will continue. You cannot penalize them without trampling on free speech, and if you do that, it’s more likely the unpopular truths like the theory of evolution that will be banned, not flat-earth ers or anti-vaxxers.

G0OSE
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BOO5TED wrote:
G0OSE wrote:
That’s not how it works with Paypal. Neal had his chance to resolve it, he didn’t bother so lost the case. The buyer gets a refund and keeps the item.

So you’re saying you got a light for free then? You complain little and get a refund but refuse to send the light back? Who’s in the wrong now?

Just sayin’.


I’m not getting any lights for free here, I haven’t even bought any! just to clear that up. Facepalm . I was just replying to your comment, where YOU were quoting the other guy.

I was pointing out Paypal’s stance, that’s all. THEY tell you that you can keep it (I’ve had it a few times over the years, wrong item received etc). Technically it’s theirs to give away since they paid the refund (the original payment was months ago, and long since withdrawn by the seller). They have to hope they can claim that back or are insured, shrewd sellers don’t leave money in their account which makes it hard to claim back.
I was told by Paypal during a previous contact where I was owed money and they subsequentially refunded (dunno if true) they don’t have an ‘auto collect’ feature which can grab funds as soon as they hit an account (as in a refund), they have to do it manually, and only try a few times – if there’s none in there at that point they can’t take any. I’m pretty sure they can’t debit your card or bank either without permission as it’s not a direct debit.

dorpmuller
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ToyKeeper wrote:
Mark M wrote:
disinformation...
Our world is in a very sad state.
Yeah. Sad Lies spread like the flu, while truth comes limping behind. <snip>

https://youtu.be/yqdHl83GBdg

"I am the flashlight king! I can light anything!"

Kindle
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Mark M wrote:
Anyone ever notice the same people who never vaccinate themselves against the flu are the same people creating a stink about the coronavirus? The flu will undoubtedly kill more people in the US this year, but somehow it is the coronavirus they are worried about.

Careful, that is succumbing to the same form of confirmation bias that you are frustrated by in others. That being said I agree with your overall point in general.

Mark M wrote:
I am just old enough that I grew up in the 90s with unfettered access to the internet. In those days modem speed was rated in baud. Back then on Usenet and bulletin board systems, accuracy was the currency of the day and everyone sought the truth. Then in the late 90s or early 2000s the internet became so popular everyone had access and not just technophiles. Now it seems that bots have taken over and people lack the tools to discern real information from false information.

Maybe it was just that people who had access back then were the ones who tended to be educated. But now everyone has access to the internet and these same people demand that the information they spew carries the same weight as subject experts. I agree that something is fundamentally broken and I am not sure it can be fixed, but I hope the loud few who spread the truth can teach those who don’t care or choose not to care.

This is an even greater example of the same. I’ve been connected since the 80’s, there has always been disinformation flowing through the tubes. There has certainly been a shift in the whys and hows behind the distribution of misleading data as the internet entered into the purview of corporations & state actors, but it has always required effort to filter out incorrect & deceptive information online.

Also in my experience once you get outside of an individuals’ area of study or expertise they tend to fall into the traps as the ‘uneducated’.

Ventsi
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The theory of evolution is an unpopular truth? Is this the USA we’re talking about? Because only in a very religious country the theory of evolution could be unpopular. For us Europeans it’s the only truth more often than not.

Kindle
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Ventsi wrote:
The theory of evolution is an unpopular truth? Is this the USA we’re talking about? Because only in a very religious country the theory of evolution could be unpopular. For us Europeans it’s the only truth more often than not.

(I know we’re going far off top at this point but the this comment made me curious)

Percentage of the population that believe humans have always existed in their current form:
USA – 18%
Bulgaria – 31%

Percentage who believe humans have evolved & the driving force behind evolution:
USA – Natural selection 33%, Guided by a higher power 48%
Bulgaria – Natural selection 48%, Guided by a higher power 10%

Edit: In case I presented that in a confusing manner. 33% of American adults believe in evolution & that it is the result of natural selection while 48% of American adults do believe that humans have evolved but that the process of evolution was guided by a higher power (ie god).

So a higher percentage of Americans believe in evolution but a much higher percentage also believe that evolution is guided an by an outside force.

Interesting that around 9% of Bulgarians replied with no response or don’t know. That appears consistent with other central/eastern Europeans who took the survey.

Source: Pew Research Center 1, 2, 3

Ventsi
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Interesting statistics. There must be something wrong with the research though. For my 36 years, outside of very old people, I met literally a handful of people that claim evolution isn’t real and they were all clearly insane on more than one level.

Maybe they conducted the survey in weird areas of the country where people are more religious and less educated.
I’m sure you can relate to this – a survey in Alabama and California would yield very different results. In the same way the 5 largest cities in BG are vastly different than the other areas.
I also haven’t been stopped by people on the street (cough NYC cough) to explain to me the miracles of Jesus and stuff. We don’t have “one nation under god” in our anthem, nor do we mention god in our currencies, nor does our politicians mention god.

Also from your links: “Our estimate of the share of Americans who reject evolution and express a creationist view drops considerably (from 31% to 18% of U.S. adults) when respondents are immediately given the opportunity to say God played a role in human evolution.” There’s a small problem. The bible doesn’t mention anything about evolution, afaik. So either god created the Earth, or there was evolution. You can’t have both, but some people are trying to.

Anyway, I hope you don’t take it personally what I said about the USA, I have in-laws in Georgia and I’m sure it’s very different there than other parts of the US. As the US is the most religious out of the developed countries, I assumed there’s a great amount of people that denies evolution, but I guess I was wrong. If you want we could continue this subject on DM, let’s not ruin the user’s thread further Smile

Henk4U2
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This thread is starting to be rather offensive to people with other beliefs/priciples.
Not agreeing on something does not mean the other is not playing with a full deck.

You are a flashaholic if you are forced to come out of the closet, to make room for more flashlights.

Ventsi
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Sorry I was just baffled by the claim that Evolution is “unpopular truth”. I don’t mean to continue this discussion, at least not in this thread.

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Ventsi wrote:
Interesting statistics. There must be something wrong with the research though. For my 36 years, outside of very old people, I met literally a handful of people that claim evolution isn’t real and they were all clearly insane on more than one level.

Maybe they conducted the survey in weird areas of the country where people are more religious and less educated.

Or you are placing too much weight on your anecdotal experiences. Think about your immediate response of “it doesn’t support what I believe therefore it must be wrong”. That is a perfect example of why we as individuals often find it so difficult to differentiate bad data from good.

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We don’t have “one nation under god” in our anthem,

I would imagine not as it was written while the country was still under communist rule. Big Smile

(It just made me chuckle)

Quote:
also from your links: “Our estimate of the share of Americans who reject evolution and express a creationist view drops considerably (from 31% to 18% of U.S. adults) when respondents are immediately given the opportunity to say God played a role in human evolution.” There’s a small problem. The bible doesn’t mention anything about evolution, afaik. So either god created the Earth, or there was evolution. You can’t have both, but some people are trying to.

shrug The doctrinal beliefs of various denominations (or more, the beliefs of individuals that aren’t in line with official catechicsm) regarding what is allegorical & what is literal is it’s own convoluted discussion & far beyond what would be acceptable here.

Kindle
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Henk4U2 wrote:
This thread is starting to be rather offensive to people with other beliefs/priciples. Not agreeing on something does not mean the other is not playing with a full deck.

That isn’t at all what he said.

Ventsi
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Wow you just had to be a dick, hadn’t you Smile

Sorry but it’s a bit too hard to believe that in the USA, the country with the highest amount of religious people out of any other developed country, the country that started the flat earth movement, only 18% reject evolution. Especially after it turned out the data actually states 31%, but some people “changed their mind” after they were presented with a “modified” version of the question. Sure that’s not sketchy at all.

And no, the Bulgarian anthem was not written while the country was under communist rule. It was written in the 19th century.

Kindle wrote:
That is a perfect example of why we as individuals often find it so difficult to differentiate bad data from good.

Talking about good and bad data when the poll size was the enormous amount of 1600 people. OK.

Kindle wrote:
The doctrinal beliefs of various denominations (or more, the beliefs of individuals that aren’t in line with official catechicsm) regarding what is allegorical & what is literal is it’s own convoluted discussion & far beyond what would be acceptable here.

Nice try, pal.
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1600 people is plenty for a very accurate statistical analysis.

But coming back to the large percentage of US citizens who believe that a higher power guided human evolution, I wonder how many of those don’t actually believe it was a god but alien visitors who came to Earth in the past. I know Arthur C. Clarke and Stanley Kubrick haven’t been part of the mainstream media for decades now, but they certainly had an impact on people’s modern beliefs.

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longuylander wrote:
1600 people is plenty for a very accurate statistical analysis.

I don’t fully agree here. They also never say where they conducted the survey. As I said, large cities and small cities would generate vastly different results.

After I started reading the links the user provided I found this:
“It’s important to note that our international surveys have used a different approach to ask about evolution, so results are not directly comparable to our new U.S. survey”

If I can add another layer to my “anecdotal evidence”, I’m also not aware of anybody in Europe trying to ban evolution from being taught in public schools.

And I want to clarify something for other Americans reading this pointless conversation – I’m not bashing on the US. The US is a great country that gave all the world many goodies, like the computer I’m writing this on. And I enjoy my stay every time I’m there.

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You can agree or disagree, but this comes back exactly to not understanding facts and choosing to believe what you wish.

Ventsi
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I’m just saying that statistics can present something as a “fact”, but statistics could be twisted and manipulated. Statistics are not fact themselves. They just present data, on the basis of which we can or cannot conclude if something is a fact.

For example, I’ve seen statistic that show black people on average have lower IQ than white people. Should I take this as a fact, or should I at least investigate the methods which they used to came up with this result?

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And any of this has what to do with Neal’s gadgets?

Please, take all the religious/political views to PM or better still to another forum, as it always stirs up emotions. This thread is emotive enough without more being chucked on the fire.

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G0OSE wrote:
And any of this has what to do with Neal’s gadgets?

Please, take all the religious/political views to PM or better still to another forum, as it always stirs up emotions. This thread is emotive enough without more being chucked on the fire.


You’re right, I apologize. I will not post anything offtopic anymore. I urge the other participants to do the same. I’m open to a civilized discussion on PM.
Have a nice Sunday everyone.
BOO5TED
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G0OSE wrote:
I’m not getting any lights for free here, I haven’t even bought any! just to clear that up. Facepalm . I was just replying to your comment, where YOU were quoting the other guy.

I only quoted you, must have had the quotes mixed up. Someone got a refund and a light they didn’t order so that means they got a light for free that they didn’t pay for. That’s the facts. Paypals stance or not that’s means someone got a light for free.

"America has three cities, New York, San Francisco and New Orleans. Everywhere else is Cleveland."- Tennessee Williams

 

 

Kindle
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Ventsi wrote:
Wow you just had to be a dick, hadn’t you Smile

Actually no, I’m not.

I’ve not said anything that should be taken as confrontational.

Quote:
Sorry but it’s a bit too hard to believe that in the USA, the country with the highest amount of religious people out of any other developed country,

What is your definition of ‘developed countries’?

Quote:
the country that started the flat earth movement,

The modern flat earth movement was started in England.

Quote:
only 18% reject evolution. Especially after it turned out the data actually states 31%, but some people “changed their mind” after they were presented with a “modified” version of the question. Sure that’s not sketchy at all.

It merely reflects how complicated polling can be, and the importance of asking the right questions.

Quote:
And no, the Bulgarian anthem was not written while the country was under communist rule. It was written in the 19th century.

The melody for Mila Rodino was written in the 1800s, when it was re-adopted in the 1960s the lyrics were changed in the later versus. The point being that a national anthem that was allowed by the communists was almost certainly not going to have a mention of a god.

Kindle wrote:
Talking about good and bad data when the poll size was the enormous amount of 1600 people. OK.

Given the population of Bulgaria at the time that is pretty large sample size. A 95% confidence level with a margin of error of +/- 4% would have been achievable with fewer than half that number.

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Nice try, pal.

What exactly do you believe I’m ‘trying’?

Boaz
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Why is this in Deal Alerts ?

 

  Remember that there are lots of people paying attention  when they hear multiple members mention that they are having problems with a vendor . Whether it's Neal,lumintop,astrolux,gearbest or Bangood ... You may feel like you're all alone and no one cares that you're getting the screws put to you or being ignored by a vendor.  

   This isn't just a  lack of communication on their part , it's a loud and clear warning to us all .

 

 Maybe putting this into the correct area would help  new people that are considering shopping from these dealers .

 

       καὶ τὸ φῶς ἐν τῇ σκοτίᾳ φαίνει καὶ ἡ σκοτία αὐτὸ οὐ κατέλαβεν

                            

       Dc-fix diffuser film  >…  http://budgetlightforum.com/node/42208

CNCman
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I am putting ALL orders from CHINA on HOLD until things get back to normal.
I have 2 orders from different stores placed weeks before the CNY and they still have NOT shipped.
..

Yokiamy
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Henk4U2 wrote:
This thread is starting to be rather offensive to people with other beliefs/priciples. Not agreeing on something does not mean the other is not playing with a full deck.

Indeed, time for SB to close this thread

Yokiamy
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CNCman wrote:
I am putting ALL orders from CHINA on HOLD until things get back to normal. I have 2 orders from different stores placed weeks before the CNY and they still have NOT shipped. ..

Yep, same here.
They are trying to keep corona behind the great (fire)walls of China as well

Kevin Z
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Well ,if you want a free flashlight,just order from neal & hope he sends the wrong one , lol .

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