FireflyLite E12R 12*emitters 15000LM 1x21700 Flashlight

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thefreeman
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It’s more like a candle flicker (random) but faster, not like a fixed frequency flicker (e.g. from a slow PWM), so it’s not showing the stroboscopic effect. On mine it’s not very pronounced though.

gchart
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Yes, I noticed when pulling one of mine at the end of a runtime test but before it shut off. It’s almost like it can’t decide between being 1 lumen and 1 1/2 lumens. Like you’ve said, it’s likely caused by that low of a sense voltage when the current is that low. Not a big deal in my book but if you use your light at the lowest of modes very frequently it might be more of an issue.

Part of the reason some people may not notice it is because the default floor is at Level 3 (config link). If you were to change the floor config to be Level 1, you might be more apt to notice it.

thefreeman
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gchart wrote:
Part of the reason some people may not notice it is because the default floor is at Level 3 (config link). If you were to change the floor config to be Level 1, you might be more apt to notice it.

Actually I think I was on level 2, I must have not configured it correctly the first time. On level one the flickering is really obvious.

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thefreeman wrote:
Light Veteran wrote:

but..

Why in level 1 and 2 there is flickering? Facepalm
This is 100 dollar flashlight. In FW3A there isn’t flicker in moon mode.. and is a 30 dollar flashlight.. argh
Maybe I hope this problem will be is solved quickly

Cheers from enthusiast user

On the FW series there are 2 constant curent channels, one for high/mid power (7?x7135) and one for low power (1×7135), dimming the mid power channel with 8 bit PWM (1:255) would only get down to an equivalent of around 10mA~3lm, but by dimming the low power channel we can get down to 350mA/255 = 1.4mA~0.5lm. This is an easy way to get low levels because adding a 7135 based channel is trivial, but as we know they are not very efficient.

With the E12R 6A buck driver it is more complicated to add another channel (can’t use a 7135), a small high side linear current source could be used but I don’t think they are common, adding another small power buck led driver (with high side sensing) could be done maybe if a suitable part exists, board space could be an issue, I’m not sure this is would be a good solution.

So here dimming is done on one channel only, this time with 10bit (1:1023) in order to get more resolution and lower minimum : 6A/1023 ~ 6mA~2lm. The problem that arises with a higher resoltion dimming is that the voltage sensed across the current sense resistor becomes very low, let’s say the sense voltage is 60mV at 6A (with a 10mΩ sense resistor), it gets reduced to ~60μV at the minimum level, at this point there might be noise which affect the stability of the current control loop, component variation probably affect this and we get an output that flickers more or less (without taking into account perception variation between people).

One good solution I think is using a bigger sense resistor (= bigger sense voltage) only for low current (we can’t use a big resistor for high current due to power waste), this is what I’ve implemented in the drivers I’m developping, Loneoceans used this too in the LumeX1 driver. I opened a Zebralight H600 II yesterday and they also used this solution (3 sense resistors actually) I would assume they use this on all their lights.

The E12R driver was developped by Loneoceans, I’m sure that if Fireflies want to have reliable (very) low levels, they can ask him for an updated design.

Thank you thefreeman for explain what happen
I think we don’t use E12R in moon mode full day but in small cases for read in the night it would be nice.. now there is mini candle flicker party mode in level 1 Big Smile
I hope they find a solution for future project
I have measure 0.45 uA from off and 6.2 mA in level 1

Light addicted

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chouster wrote:
thefreeman wrote:
Light Veteran wrote:

but..

Why in level 1 and 2 there is flickering? Facepalm
This is 100 dollar flashlight. In FW3A there isn’t flicker in moon mode.. and is a 30 dollar flashlight.. argh
Maybe I hope this problem will be is solved quickly

Cheers from enthusiast user

On the FW series there are 2 constant curent channels, one for high/mid power (7?x7135) and one for low power (1×7135), dimming the mid power channel with 8 bit PWM (1:255) would only get down to an equivalent of around 10mA~3lm, but by dimming the low power channel we can get down to 350mA/255 = 1.4mA~0.5lm.

….

So here dimming is done on one channel only, this time with 10bit (1:1023) in order to get more resolution and lower minimum : 6A/1023 ~ 6mA~2lm.

Not questioning a single thing you stated above, I don’t understand most of it tbh.

I just want to point out a few things and your numbers come in handy:

Nichia recommends operating the 219BT-V1 at a current greater than 10 % of the sorting current (I think that’s 700 mA, so 10 % would be 70 mA) to “stabilize the LED characteristics”.

I know, we normally don’t really care what manufacturers recommend, especially when it comes to maximum currents. We exceed them by factors of 2, 3, 4, 5… as long as it gets brighter.

Now, let’s take a closer look at these minimum ratings: 70 mA x 12 LEDs = 840 mA is what they’d recommend for this set-up, 6 mA is what we through at it. That’s 140 times lower than what Nichia says is fine to have stable LED characteristics. What do they mean with these characteristics? I don’t really know. Could it be related with the flickering? Do the non-Nichia versions have that “issue”? I don’t know. And by “what we through at it” I really meant us flashlight nerds, most of us.

We want the switching driver, we want the great efficiency, we want all modes pwm-free, we want to have moon modes so low that we can look into the dim glowing dies. But we complain when one emitter isn’t as bright as the other in the 0.5 lm mode or when one part of a XHP70.2 isn’t lit at 0.5 lm mode.

The fact is: these LEDs aren’t really meant for that.

I don’t need those super low modes. Do you? Maybe pwm isn’t such a bad thing after all. Adding another channel with low-current-LEDs? Would be even more efficient, but then you couldn’t look at the dim glowing dies of the main emitters. Smile

I wouldn’t want to pay extra dollars just to have the last box checked.

I just set my E12R so that the lowest mode is a little brighter than default but flicker-free and I’m super super happy with this light.

I try every led I buy directly with multimeter in diode mode. I never measure the current but is very very very low.. probably under minimal technical specification and I never see flicker.

Light addicted

Mechanic80
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I’m really on the fence about the E12R, right now leaning towards buying it but I’m seeking some advice/opinions.

I already own an EC01 and FTO2S (sst20×4) and I love both and use them daily at work and home. I’ve read through a good portion of this thread and it’s obvious I know far less than a lot of people here when it comes to specifics like driver and emitter differences. I understand lumens and candela, flood/throw but not much else.

Any light I buy from now on has to have charging capabilities and at least be brighter or have more throw than my Astrolux EC01. I also think the FTO2S is about the thickest light I want because anything thicker wouldn’t fit in my magnetic flashlight holder I use at work, silly, but for the price of a good light I’m allowed to be picky!

I see that a lot of the people who bought the E12R didn’t go for the highest lumen emitters and I wonder why? This light obviously isn’t a thrower so why not get the absolute brightest flood? If not for all my reading here that’s exactly what I would’ve done. I figure if it’s no brighter than my FTO2S what’s the point. Is there any specific reason I shouldn’t choose the highest lumen option?

Astrolux EC01
Astrolux FTO2S
More to come...

Sillen
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E12R isn’t about the highest lumens – it’s component & build quality, LED options and a hint of novelty.

I used to think max flood or max throw was everything but now have a bunch of light purchased solely on one or more of quality, tint and novelty. The price of some ‘pretty’ lights could have gotten me thousands more lumens – Reylight Pineapple(s), Enogear AA & TC8 Titanium & GT Micro Cu. Some 500 lumen torches are $500-$1000 or more.

EC01 & FT02S are great bang for buck lights, I have FT02S w/ XHP50 but sometimes an S2+ with SST20 2700K in a striking body color will do just as well.

Lux-Perpetua
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Mechanic80 wrote:
(...)I see that a lot of the people who bought the E12R didn't go for the highest lumen emitters and I wonder why? This light obviously isn't a thrower so why not get the absolute brightest flood? If not for all my reading here that's exactly what I would've done. I figure if it's no brighter than my FTO2S what's the point. Is there any specific reason I shouldn't choose the highest lumen option?

First of all, welcome to BLF! Smile

I must admit I do not have the E12R (yet). However, I suppose many people did not choose to buy the highest output version because:

  • tint color / CCT is important to many members, i.e. anything above 5000K is considered as (too) cold-white.
  • color rendition (CRI) has become more and more important to many members, i.e. XP-L2 and SST20 6500K as best performing emitters have to be ruled out
  • E12R's highlight is not the most-possible output but the fully regulated output at up to 6A thanks to Loneocean's driver.
  • Jacky offers emitters that many competitors don't, e.g. Nichia 219B SW45K R9080 4500K with its outstanding spectrum properties and color rendition.

If you are after maximum turn-on lumens only, I'd recommend buying something like EC03 or comparable with 3-4 XHP50.2 emitters.

Dalamar
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Mechanic80 wrote:
I see that a lot of the people who bought the E12R didn’t go for the highest lumen emitters and I wonder why? This light obviously isn’t a thrower so why not get the absolute brightest flood? If not for all my reading here that’s exactly what I would’ve done. I figure if it’s no brighter than my FTO2S what’s the point. Is there any specific reason I shouldn’t choose the highest lumen option?
I once had a low cri high output CREE that showed green as almost gray and horse piss/poo puddle as clear water. Even marginally above average CRI emitters like 219C could show the piss puddles for what they were: red, murky and nasty. That same cree light was my thow light, but I can shoot just fine at coon blasting range (120yd max) with a ~25% weaker overdriven SST20 C8 with a bit less candela on it. I’d obviously rather have a higher output high cri focused beam, but it seems it won’t happen. The lower CCT and better rendering let you react faster to targets tbfh… blue, purple and green lights are a crime, outdoor light should never have a CCT over 5000, ideally less.

Especially obnoxious with high CCT light is fog is way more apparent…

I only like high CRI. Collection:

Fireflies NOV-MU 21 4500k E21A

Fireflies ROT66 219B SW45 D220

Fireflies E07 219B SW45k (all copper, in mail)

Fireflies E07 219B SW45k

Awaiting release of E07x Pro, only if 219b still stocked.

Emisar D4 (v1) SST20 4000k frosted

 

Varmint removal (throw):

Convoy M21A C8 ver SST20 4000k (5a)

Convoy S2+ SST20 4000k (3200ma)

 

CRI test dump https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1kcl_uOhgfpR4RSsa8F4b-UUVP9mkL6Cr...

SKV89
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Mechanic80 wrote:
I’m really on the fence about the E12R, right now leaning towards buying it but I’m seeking some advice/opinions.

I already own an EC01 and FTO2S (sst20×4) and I love both and use them daily at work and home. I’ve read through a good portion of this thread and it’s obvious I know far less than a lot of people here when it comes to specifics like driver and emitter differences. I understand lumens and candela, flood/throw but not much else.

Any light I buy from now on has to have charging capabilities and at least be brighter or have more throw than my Astrolux EC01. I also think the FTO2S is about the thickest light I want because anything thicker wouldn’t fit in my magnetic flashlight holder I use at work, silly, but for the price of a good light I’m allowed to be picky!

I see that a lot of the people who bought the E12R didn’t go for the highest lumen emitters and I wonder why? This light obviously isn’t a thrower so why not get the absolute brightest flood? If not for all my reading here that’s exactly what I would’ve done. I figure if it’s no brighter than my FTO2S what’s the point. Is there any specific reason I shouldn’t choose the highest lumen option?

I used to buy almost every single ultra high output light but stopped because of the cheap direct drive driver that are meant as toys rather than tools. The EC01 and FT02S are direct drive FET driver lights that has no hardware regulation and highly inefficient. Even FF’s previous generation lights used similar drivers so I hardly used them. These new series of FF lights uses the highly efficient Loneocean designed LUME driver. That is one of several main reason why I’m so excited about FF’s new lineup. They can also hold a very practical output for day to day use whereas other FET driver lights will just see output continuously dropping along with the battery’s voltage.

People like CRI because once you compare FF’s high CRI (besides the LH351D 4000K), you will see how much nicer and more welcoming the light renders your surrounding compared with low quality lighting. If you want high output, I recommend the E12R 5700k 80CRI. It will have high output but at least not piss poor color compared with the typical low cri CW lights.

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I am a little more then green when it comes to flashlights, and I am on the fence with buying this light. Are people having unique problems or finding small glitches with this light? I’ve read some posts on this thread that worry me as I do not know how to work on or fix a buck or boost driver. This light looks awesome, but if it is “finicky” because it’s the first generation and the driver is very complex, I don’t know if I want to take a gamble on a light that is $100. I am Wiingnto admit if this light is too complex for me and maybe too novelty for the average user like myself? Or am I wrong and most people finding this light robust and working well? Please help if you can, those who own it. Thanks!

Also known Emisar and Noctigons and originally had issues with not knowing the intricacies of those lights but have come to realize how to use lights like that. So I have some baseline knowledge.

Basically, is this light fun and enjoyable or are the potential snafus aggravating for people? Sorry if I am off base here. Like I said, I am very interested in this light. I just like to use my lights a lot. And want something that is a good solid type of light, not a shelf queen. . Thanks again

gchart
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I really like mine (in transparency: a review sample). I don’t have any actual problems with mine. The lowest default modes does have a very slight flicker. I’m not sure I’d notice it if someone hadn’t mentioned it. And the switch feels different… not necessarily bad, it’s just different. Oh, and some people that are really used to Anduril 1 will have a few mental adjustments for Anduril 2. I think those are the only negatives I can come up with. I don’t feel like the E12R is a novelty at all. It’s legitimately a really nice light.

Artiet59
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Thank you gchart. I definitely appreciate your feedback.

If I want nice tint- would you recommend Nichia or sst20 or Samsung?

Pavlo
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I’m super happy with mine so far (219B). The lowest 2 levels have a visible flicker. Neither of the low levels are a proper moonlight mode anyways, so setting the base to level 3 instead of 1 or 2 makes no difference to me, and it gets rid of the flicker.
If you like 4500K, go for the Nichia all the way. Tint will look great at all levels.
Between the Samsung and SST20 in 4000K, that’s a more difficult decision. Although the Samsung is technically brighter, SST20 has significantly more throw and will appear brighter in majority of cases, unless you are ceiling bouncing. I find SST20 Color rendering to be a touch better as well.
The Samsung would be my pick if you are wanting to go as floody as possible.

Artiet59
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Pavlo wrote:
I’m super happy with mine so far (219B). The lowest 2 levels have a visible flicker. Neither of the low levels are a proper moonlight mode anyways, so setting the base to level 3 instead of 1 or 2 makes no difference to me, and it gets rid of the flicker.
If you like 4500K, go for the Nichia all the way. Tint will look great at all levels.
Between the Samsung and SST20 in 4000K, that’s a more difficult decision. Although the Samsung is technically brighter, SST20 has significantly more throw and will appear brighter in majority of cases, unless you are ceiling bouncing. I find SST20 Color rendering to be a touch better as well.
The Samsung would be my pick if you are wanting to go as floody as possible.

Very helpful, thank you! I have sst20 4K in other lights and like it, but may go 4500 nichia. Definitely between those two now. I like the thrower idea.
Pavlo
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Based on Ledil/Carclo optic specs, the 219B has more throw than 219C, and is actually quite similar to SST20.
I had a hard time deciding between the two, but no regrets with 219B. It has a better tint overall, and only 500K CCT difference. At times it can feel a touch cool as I usually go for 4000K as my go to Neutral White, but your eyes adjust quickly to the slightly cooler CCT. I find my eyes have a harder time adjusting to Warmer CCT’s if already adapted to cooler.

On snow and white surfaces, the 219B will appear pure white.

Rat
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Will you guys be doing this light in Copper?

later

gchart
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My E12R review is in.

tl;dr: I’m a big fan

chouster
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gchart wrote:
My E12R review is in.

tl;dr: I’m a big fan

!{width:500px;max-width:100%;}https://1lumen.com/wp-content/uploads/fireflies-e12r-review.jpg!

Great review, gchart, thanks!

Your numbers are lot more like what I hoped they would be. 2022 lm at 4,3 A with that light quality is just pure awesomeness.

Sillen
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gchart wrote:
My E12R review is in.

tl;dr: I’m a big fan

!{width:500px;max-width:100%;}https://1lumen.com/wp-content/uploads/fireflies-e12r-review.jpg!


Also a big fan. Curious about the short tube. I didn’t get one. Is yours a free reviewer sample? When did it ship?
gchart
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Yeah, I think they included the short tube because I was reviewing it. It’s the same one shown in the T1R thread.

Dalamar
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Light Veteran wrote:
thefreeman wrote:
Light Veteran wrote:

but..

Why in level 1 and 2 there is flickering? Facepalm
This is 100 dollar flashlight. In FW3A there isn’t flicker in moon mode.. and is a 30 dollar flashlight.. argh
Maybe I hope this problem will be is solved quickly

Cheers from enthusiast user

On the FW series there are 2 constant curent channels, one for high/mid power (7?x7135) and one for low power (1×7135), dimming the mid power channel with 8 bit PWM (1:255) would only get down to an equivalent of around 10mA~3lm, but by dimming the low power channel we can get down to 350mA/255 = 1.4mA~0.5lm. This is an easy way to get low levels because adding a 7135 based channel is trivial, but as we know they are not very efficient.

With the E12R 6A buck driver it is more complicated to add another channel (can’t use a 7135), a small high side linear current source could be used but I don’t think they are common, adding another small power buck led driver (with high side sensing) could be done maybe if a suitable part exists, board space could be an issue, I’m not sure this is would be a good solution.

So here dimming is done on one channel only, this time with 10bit (1:1023) in order to get more resolution and lower minimum : 6A/1023 ~ 6mA~2lm. The problem that arises with a higher resoltion dimming is that the voltage sensed across the current sense resistor becomes very low, let’s say the sense voltage is 60mV at 6A (with a 10mΩ sense resistor), it gets reduced to ~60μV at the minimum level, at this point there might be noise which affect the stability of the current control loop, component variation probably affect this and we get an output that flickers more or less (without taking into account perception variation between people).

One good solution I think is using a bigger sense resistor (= bigger sense voltage) only for low current (we can’t use a big resistor for high current due to power waste), this is what I’ve implemented in the drivers I’m developping, Loneoceans used this too in the LumeX1 driver. I opened a Zebralight H600 II yesterday and they also used this solution (3 sense resistors actually) I would assume they use this on all their lights.

The E12R driver was developped by Loneoceans, I’m sure that if Fireflies want to have reliable (very) low levels, they can ask him for an updated design.


I hope they find a solution for future project

they should just get rid of the FET meme, look how many 219b and e21a leds it has killed on reddit

the highest ramp (6a) is plenty of lumens

I only like high CRI. Collection:

Fireflies NOV-MU 21 4500k E21A

Fireflies ROT66 219B SW45 D220

Fireflies E07 219B SW45k (all copper, in mail)

Fireflies E07 219B SW45k

Awaiting release of E07x Pro, only if 219b still stocked.

Emisar D4 (v1) SST20 4000k frosted

 

Varmint removal (throw):

Convoy M21A C8 ver SST20 4000k (5a)

Convoy S2+ SST20 4000k (3200ma)

 

CRI test dump https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1kcl_uOhgfpR4RSsa8F4b-UUVP9mkL6Cr...

Robin Dobbie
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I thought FW3As were like $50, now. Who’s getting them for $30?

Hikelite
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Dalamar wrote:
they should just get rid of the FET meme, look how many 219b and e21a leds it has killed on reddit

How many?
Post some links with the many dead ones because I have not seen just the guy that thought his mule was dead and was working after he cleaned it.

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There is flicker on both the NOV-Mu and E12R under 20 lumens or so

My 4K Lumen Whore Reviews (MS18, X70, MS12, DX80, X80-GT, X45vn etc) - http://www.youtube.com/c/FLASHAHOLIC_TV

Th558
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Does the Lume1 FW3X driver also have the low level flickering issue?

dropman
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The_Flashaholic wrote:
There is flicker on both the NOV-Mu and E12R under 20 lumens or so

Would be great to hear comments about this from driver author. If this is hardware limitation, imho this is unacceptable for 100$ flashlight.
zoulas
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dropman wrote:
The_Flashaholic wrote:
There is flicker on both the NOV-Mu and E12R under 20 lumens or so
Would be great to hear comments about this from driver author. If this is hardware limitation, imho this is unacceptable for 100$ flashlight.

I don’t think your rationale is sound. You are getting a super advanced super high tech light for $100. Not to mention with a programable software based interface and electronic switch. Not to mention, you have the choice of emitters. What did $100 get you 10 years ago? Likely a 500 lumen light with just an on/off button that you would not even take for free today.

Todays lights including this one are technological marvels.

gchart
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I feel like the “flicker” is getting blown out of proportion. Does it exist? Sure. But it’s not something I really notice. Under 20 lumens, I can tell it’s there when white wall hunting. Above that, or in a “walking around” kind of situation, and it’s no longer apparent/present.

Here’s a video I just took to give you an idea of what’s going on. This is at the lowest default level, 4.5 lumens. The first 3 seconds are normal speed, the rest of the video is 8x slow motion.

zoulas
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I see it but its too minor to be a fault. If you did not mention it, I would have never noticed.

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