Am I on the right track?

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ipaulr
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Am I on the right track?

Although I've been collecting flashlights on and off for several years now, I'm just beginning to understand batteries and how they effect brightness.  So I'm compiling a spreadsheet of currently available batteries in various sizes, so that I can find the highest max-continuous-current batteries for my lights, as I like to make them as bright as they can be.  (I know that programming can also help this.  And so can VinHsmile.)

One question I have is how max-pulse-current effects brightness.  I've read that it means 5 sec. on and 30 sec. off.

So here's what I've found so far, in my quest for max continuous current.  I don't see how to embed a spreadsheet here, so I've just taken a picture of it and inserted that.  If you'd like a copy of what I have so far, just PM me and I'll send it in either Mac Numbers format or as a PDF.

Your feedback would be most appreciated!  I'm a neophyte in this.

 

 

See my flashlight collection listing here

At the moment I'm most smitten by:

  • YDE Wreckit in Damascus and also in Timascus
  • Huckleberry Damasteel Fenja
  • Reylight Dawn Mokume and also Copper
  • Spy 007 (of course)
  • Olight Marauder 2 Blue
  • Lumenite 23650, 26650
  • Emisar KR1 Copper; DT8; D4V2 CuZn; D4SV2
  • Metaminco MT90 mini Copper
  • Lumintop FW21 X9L SBT-90 Copper; Thor 1, 2, V
  • Manker MK37, MC13, MK35 ii, MK34, MK34 II, MK38 White
TIFisher
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Cool. Nice work. Simple to peruse with the basic specs.. I like it. Any plans to expand/include 14500, 21700 (others)?

ipaulr
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TIFisher wrote:
Cool. Nice work. Simple to peruse with the basic specs.. I like it. Any plans to expand/include 14500, 21700 (others)?

Thanks.  I am going forward on 26350, 26650 and perhaps a few others that are relevant to my collection.

I think that flashlights themselves have a max continuous current that they can use, so I suppose exceeding that with a battery won't improve brightness further, right.  I have yet to determine the max of my flashlights, save for my new Spy 007 Ultra (which is 3.3A according to David's specs).

I wonder if all the batteries I'm finding are of sufficient quality.  I've read that there are lots of "bad" batteries out there.  I'm hoping that the sellers I'm using wouldn't sell those.....

See my flashlight collection listing here

At the moment I'm most smitten by:

  • YDE Wreckit in Damascus and also in Timascus
  • Huckleberry Damasteel Fenja
  • Reylight Dawn Mokume and also Copper
  • Spy 007 (of course)
  • Olight Marauder 2 Blue
  • Lumenite 23650, 26650
  • Emisar KR1 Copper; DT8; D4V2 CuZn; D4SV2
  • Metaminco MT90 mini Copper
  • Lumintop FW21 X9L SBT-90 Copper; Thor 1, 2, V
  • Manker MK37, MC13, MK35 ii, MK34, MK34 II, MK38 White
thefreeman
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Don’t bother with chemistry, the prefix hasn’t been indicating it for a long time. Here for example 30Q is NCA, 25R NCA/NMC blend.

The CDR is just a rating given by the manufacturer for what is safe (but also depends on temperature), not what current the flashlight will pull, rewrapers often overrate their cells, there isn’t any 35A 18650 3000mAh cells.

What you want is to look at discharge curves Here and find the ones that have the highest voltage under load, for direct drive lights those will be the ones giving the highest output.

tamadedan
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Right track to aggregate manufacturer/distributor specifications as an overview. Wrong track if you explicitly plan your cell purchases around the spreadsheet. The link listed in the previous post (HKJ's test results) and https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/ (Mooch's test results) are two reliable, go-to sources.

ipaulr
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Location: United States

thefreeman wrote:
Don’t bother with chemistry, the prefix hasn’t been indicating it for a long time. Here for example 30Q is NCA, 25R NCA/NMC blend. The CDR is just a rating given by the manufacturer for what is safe (but also depends on temperature), not what current the flashlight will pull, rewrapers often overrate their cells, there isn’t any 35A 18650 3000mAh cells. What you want is to look at discharge curves "Here":https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Common18650comparator.php and find the ones that have the highest voltage under load, for direct drive lights those will be the ones giving the highest output.

Thanks for your reply.  What a complex subject, especially for someone like me who only has the faintest acquaintance with V, mAh, Amps, etc.

Where can I find such graphs?  In reviews only?

See my flashlight collection listing here

At the moment I'm most smitten by:

  • YDE Wreckit in Damascus and also in Timascus
  • Huckleberry Damasteel Fenja
  • Reylight Dawn Mokume and also Copper
  • Spy 007 (of course)
  • Olight Marauder 2 Blue
  • Lumenite 23650, 26650
  • Emisar KR1 Copper; DT8; D4V2 CuZn; D4SV2
  • Metaminco MT90 mini Copper
  • Lumintop FW21 X9L SBT-90 Copper; Thor 1, 2, V
  • Manker MK37, MC13, MK35 ii, MK34, MK34 II, MK38 White
ipaulr
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Last seen: 11 hours 19 min ago
Joined: 09/16/2018 - 11:42
Posts: 183
Location: United States

thefreeman wrote:
Don’t bother with chemistry, the prefix hasn’t been indicating it for a long time. Here for example 30Q is NCA, 25R NCA/NMC blend. The CDR is just a rating given by the manufacturer for what is safe (but also depends on temperature), not what current the flashlight will pull, rewrapers often overrate their cells, there isn’t any 35A 18650 3000mAh cells. What you want is to look at discharge curves "Here":https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Common18650comparator.php and find the ones that have the highest voltage under load, for direct drive lights those will be the ones giving the highest output.

Ah, excellent actionable information.  Thanks tons!

See my flashlight collection listing here

At the moment I'm most smitten by:

  • YDE Wreckit in Damascus and also in Timascus
  • Huckleberry Damasteel Fenja
  • Reylight Dawn Mokume and also Copper
  • Spy 007 (of course)
  • Olight Marauder 2 Blue
  • Lumenite 23650, 26650
  • Emisar KR1 Copper; DT8; D4V2 CuZn; D4SV2
  • Metaminco MT90 mini Copper
  • Lumintop FW21 X9L SBT-90 Copper; Thor 1, 2, V
  • Manker MK37, MC13, MK35 ii, MK34, MK34 II, MK38 White
tamadedan
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ipaulr wrote:

Where can I find such graphs?  In reviews only?


Reviews and product datasheets.
jon_slider
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> Your feedback would be most appreciated! I’m a neophyte in this.

Im also new, I think the following is true
LiIon includes
IMR
INR
ICR

ICR is the old standard and are protected, because they have the least safe chemistry. They are not High Discharge, generally max out at CCA of 3A, and are usually button top

IMR and INR are High discharge capable, with CCA of 10A +-5

if I understand correctly lights with FET will take all they can get and be brighter, example the Anduril lights.. by contrast, regulated lights such as HDS, will not exceed a preset brightness…

IMR and INR are often unprotected and flat top

> I think that flashlights themselves have a max continuous current that they can use, so I suppose exceeding that with a battery won’t improve brightness further, right.

yes w a FET, no with a regulated output light

> I wonder if all the batteries I’m finding are of sufficient quality. I’ve read that there are lots of “bad” batteries out there.

I think youre fine..
I dont think the scare stories apply.. imo those are regarding cheap, no name cells that were pulled from old laptops and repackaged for deep discount sales on places like ebay. They were not brand new brand name cells.

now my opinions about brightness, derived in part from HDS FAQ

basically, 50% more lumens is not a large visual step, so trying to eek out another 20-30% more lumens, by hunting for the highest drain battery, will not yield a significant visual increase in max brightness.

better to adapt the eyes to use “enough” light, without using more than necessary, as this shuts down the iris and makes it more difficult to see with less light

it takes 30 minutes for eyes to downregulate to dark adapted levels.. a blast of bright light is not helpful. Similar to taking a photo that is too bright, overexposed.

personal opinion:
chasing max lumens, is the road to perdition.. it favors low CRI and Cool White.. iow, high quantity, low Quality..

I always go for High CRI.. I dont need thousands of lumens for a few seconds, I usually try not to exceen half the brightness potential of my lights.. it doubles the runtime Smile

so your decisions hinge on
choosing a brand you can find, like the price of, and works in your light

I for example, have settled on the
Keepower 18350 Unprotected 1200mAh, which I buy from Illum
as the best for my Jetbeam RRT-01.. I dont use max, though this cell IS high drain.. what appeals to me about it, is the High Capacity (longer runtime)

even though that keeppower is a flat top, it happens to have a shape that works in my RRT-01, despite it having a reverse polarity protection ring, that makes other flat tops unable to reach the positive post on the driver. Actually using a battery in an actual light is sometimes necessary.. The 750mAh Keepower for example, does not work in my RRT-01, because its flat top is wider.

protected cells are longer, some lights have built in LVP, so they dont need protected cells. Again Anduril for example, wants unprotected high drain for max output.

In an HDS Unprotected is also fine, as the light has built in LVP. However, because HDS is an example of a regulated output driver, there is no increase in output when using High Drain Cells.

IMR and INR, are safer than ICR, and IMR and INR are usually unprotected. This means no sudden darkness, instead the light just gets dimmer as the battery dies. I prefer this, as it gives me time to move to a safe place, instead of suddenly being stuck standing in the dark.

===

suggestion
you may want to sort your lights by driver type

example, regulated, wont get brighter with high drain cells
• Spy 007

example, UNregulated, will get brighter with high drain cells
• Lumenite 23650

btw, I encourage you to get a lightmeter, its much easier to measure differences in output, that our eyes are not sensitive to

ipaulr
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jon_slider wrote:
> Your feedback would be most appreciated! I'm a neophyte in this. Im also new, I think the following is true LiIon includes IMR INR ICR ICR is the old standard and are protected, because they have the least safe chemistry. They are not High Discharge, generally max out at CCA of 3A, and are usually button top IMR and INR are High discharge capable, with CCA of 10A +-5 if I understand correctly lights with FET will take all they can get and be brighter, example the Anduril lights.. by contrast, regulated lights such as HDS, will not exceed a preset brightness... IMR and INR are often unprotected and flat top > I think that flashlights themselves have a max continuous current that they can use, so I suppose exceeding that with a battery won't improve brightness further, right. yes w a FET, no with a regulated output light > I wonder if all the batteries I'm finding are of sufficient quality. I've read that there are lots of "bad" batteries out there. I think youre fine.. I dont think the scare stories apply.. imo those are regarding cheap, no name cells that were pulled from old laptops and repackaged for deep discount sales on places like ebay. They were not brand new brand name cells. now my opinions about brightness, "derived in part from HDS FAQ":https://www.hdssystems.com/Content/LightFaq/ basically, 50% more lumens is not a large visual step, so trying to eek out another 20-30% more lumens, by hunting for the highest drain battery, will not yield a significant visual increase in max brightness. better to adapt the eyes to use "enough" light, without using more than necessary, as this shuts down the iris and makes it more difficult to see with less light it takes 30 minutes for eyes to downregulate to dark adapted levels.. a blast of bright light is not helpful. Similar to taking a photo that is too bright, overexposed. personal opinion: chasing max lumens, is the road to perdition.. it favors low CRI and Cool White.. iow, high quantity, low Quality.. I always go for High CRI.. I dont need thousands of lumens for a few seconds, I usually try not to exceen half the brightness potential of my lights.. it doubles the runtime Smile so your decisions hinge on choosing a brand you can find, like the price of, and works in your light I for example, have settled on the "Keepower 18350 Unprotected 1200mAh, which I buy from Illum":https://www.illumn.com/18350-keeppower-imr18350-1200mah-high-discharge-f... as the best for my Jetbeam RRT-01.. I dont use max, though this cell IS high drain.. what appeals to me about it, is the High Capacity (longer runtime) even though that keeppower is a flat top, it happens to have a shape that works in my RRT-01, despite it having a reverse polarity protection ring, that makes other flat tops unable to reach the positive post on the driver. Actually using a battery in an actual light is sometimes necessary.. The 750mAh Keepower for example, does not work in my RRT-01, because its flat top is wider. protected cells are longer, some lights have built in LVP, so they dont need protected cells. Again Anduril for example, wants unprotected high drain for max output. In an HDS Unprotected is also fine, as the light has built in LVP. However, because HDS is an example of a regulated output driver, there is no increase in output when using High Drain Cells. IMR and INR, are safer than ICR, and IMR and INR are usually unprotected. This means no sudden darkness, instead the light just gets dimmer as the battery dies. I prefer this, as it gives me time to move to a safe place, instead of suddenly being stuck standing in the dark. === suggestion you may want to sort your lights by driver type example, regulated, wont get brighter with high drain cells • Spy 007 example, UNregulated, will get brighter with high drain cells • Lumenite 23650 btw, I encourage you to get a lightmeter, its much easier to measure differences in output, that our eyes are not sensitive to

Truly wonderful feedback, Jon.  I've been seeing your name allot lately, THANKS for your help and participation!

Which light meter would you suggest?  Does not have to be a budget one.  I was planning to start with an iPhone app.

Your feedback on letting my eyes adjust is quite reasonable, but does not address my rather weird interests. I'm 78 and especially for the last year, mostly isolating with my wife and pups.  So I have minimal need for flashlights, save for getting around the house after dark when I don't want to disturb my wife.  

That said, I'm absolutely smitten with the brilliant and beautiful designs coming out now, and with the amazing progress in LEDs and batteries.  I love flashlights as "things" as much as for light. But to keep my interest up, I need activities with them.

This battery spreadsheet work is one such activity, and trying to understand how batteries effect light is another.

Something else I like is being wowed by how bright a small light can be, especially in throw.  I find lighting up distant objects kind of thrilling, even if just in my backyard.  I like comparing the throw of older lights to newer ones.  I keep a spreadsheet of my flashlights with lots of info, including my throw estimates, which is based on visual comparisons between lights, especially those with "known" levels like my Olight Marauder 2, which has 7 "known throw levels".

I also like making a light brighter, by programming or by finding better batteries.  I used to think my Manker Timeback II (which I love as a thing) was awfully dull, but then I put a better battery in it recently, and it made a huge difference.  What a kick!  I also did this with my Spy 007 and my Lumenite 26350.  I was hooked, hence this thread.

This Imalent 26350 with 15A current (if that's real) should really light up my Lumenite, so I've ordered a couple.

The KeepPower 18350 has made a big impact on my 18350 lights.

I've ordered a few MXJO 18650 3000MAH 35A IMR batteries can do for some of my lights.  Should be interesting....

So, that's my weird world for now.....

See my flashlight collection listing here

At the moment I'm most smitten by:

  • YDE Wreckit in Damascus and also in Timascus
  • Huckleberry Damasteel Fenja
  • Reylight Dawn Mokume and also Copper
  • Spy 007 (of course)
  • Olight Marauder 2 Blue
  • Lumenite 23650, 26650
  • Emisar KR1 Copper; DT8; D4V2 CuZn; D4SV2
  • Metaminco MT90 mini Copper
  • Lumintop FW21 X9L SBT-90 Copper; Thor 1, 2, V
  • Manker MK37, MC13, MK35 ii, MK34, MK34 II, MK38 White
Oli
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Temperature plays a part also. When batteries are below freezing the discharge rates drop. There has been discussion here in the past about higher discharge rated batteries doing a lot better at below freezing temperatures compared to batteries with lesser discharge rates. So people that keep flashlights and batteries in vehicles year-round may find this info useful. It’s very easy to measure the voltage sag on some or maybe all of the Olights with the exposed contacts on the end. Unfortunately you can’t measure batteries other than Olights this way.

You can't compare the big flashlight in the sky to the little flashlight in your hand.

tamadedan
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Use the table below as a rough guide. Notable omissions include the Moli M35A/M50A and Samsung 50G/50S (amongst others), but the table remains useful…

jon_slider
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I put a couple of lights in my freezer for an hour, and compared their output before and after

there was indeed a drop in the maximum output when frozen, of about 20%

> I love flashlights as “things” as much as for light. But to keep my interest up, I need activities with them.

> This battery spreadsheet work is one such activity, and trying to understand how batteries effect light is another.

thanks for sharing your journey Smile

harmless fun with batteries..

I dont have a light meter recommendation.. I cobbled something together that cost me $45, but you may prefer something more sophisticated.. there is a good thread by djozz and Texas Ace is also a vendor for finished intergrating tubes..

and you can probably use ceiling bounce to get some idea of which light is brighter

as far as fun with throw.. have you heard about the copper nano? Wink

ipaulr
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I have the Lumintop nano and like it, except for how quickly it drops down from turbo.  So thanks for pointing out the copper version.  It should be able to hold turbo a bit longer because of its extra mass, and I love the look and heft/feel of copper lights.  So I ordered one.  Yes!

I too have settled on the 

Keepower 18350 Unprotected 1200mAh, which I buy from Illum(link is external).

It seems to be a great 18350!  Quite noticeable improvements over what I'd been using.

I would like to add a column to my flashlight collection spreadsheet for Regulated/Unregulated, but I'm not sure how easy it will be to determine which is which,  Advice?

I was able to brighten my regulated Spy 007 because the batteries I had been using gave just 1A, while switching to the Nitecore RCR123A NL166 gave 6.5A, allowing the 007 to max out at 3.3A.  A big improvement.  Very bright now, especially for such a small light (which I love!).

I know you like high CRI lights.  Very personal decision.  I strongly favor Cool White, and 6500K if possible.  I don't have much experience with high CRI lights, but the few I've seen seem too yellow to my eye.  The CW lights I have seem very neutral to my eye, no yellow cast (which dislike), and capable of being really bright, which I love.  From my long hours in Photoshop over the past 30 years, I've developed this sensitivity and dislike for a yellow cast.  The high CRI's I've seen just don't seem that neutral, and exact a big drop in max brightness.  But that's just me.

Where is The Land of Enchantment?  New Zealand?  Australia?

See my flashlight collection listing here

At the moment I'm most smitten by:

  • YDE Wreckit in Damascus and also in Timascus
  • Huckleberry Damasteel Fenja
  • Reylight Dawn Mokume and also Copper
  • Spy 007 (of course)
  • Olight Marauder 2 Blue
  • Lumenite 23650, 26650
  • Emisar KR1 Copper; DT8; D4V2 CuZn; D4SV2
  • Metaminco MT90 mini Copper
  • Lumintop FW21 X9L SBT-90 Copper; Thor 1, 2, V
  • Manker MK37, MC13, MK35 ii, MK34, MK34 II, MK38 White
jon_slider
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> I would like to add a column to my flashlight collection spreadsheet for Regulated/Unregulated, but I’m not sure how easy it will be to determine which is which, Advice?

check reviews with runtime charts to see the shape of the discharge curve…I dont have a simpler answer..

I thought since your Spy is programmable, that it was regulated, but you report that with a different battery it gets brighter, so, I guess I was mistaken.. I dont know much about the driver in that light.. Maybe ask the manufacturer..

congrats on your copper GT Nano order… If you own a copper maratac, I think you will be able to use the body tube for 10440 too..

> I don’t have much experience with high CRI lights, but the few I’ve seen seem too yellow to my eye.

ok… that tells me your brain is white balanced to daylight
Im glad you are happy with your cool white options…

Here’s Why New Mexico Is Known as the Land of Enchantment

ipaulr
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tamadedan wrote:
Use the table below as a rough guide. Notable omissions include the Moli M35A/M50A and Samsung 50G/50S (amongst others), but the table remains useful... !https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/attachments/164ff016-f4d4-4cd9-bffa-56...

 

Thanks for the table.  Looks quite worth some serious study.

See my flashlight collection listing here

At the moment I'm most smitten by:

  • YDE Wreckit in Damascus and also in Timascus
  • Huckleberry Damasteel Fenja
  • Reylight Dawn Mokume and also Copper
  • Spy 007 (of course)
  • Olight Marauder 2 Blue
  • Lumenite 23650, 26650
  • Emisar KR1 Copper; DT8; D4V2 CuZn; D4SV2
  • Metaminco MT90 mini Copper
  • Lumintop FW21 X9L SBT-90 Copper; Thor 1, 2, V
  • Manker MK37, MC13, MK35 ii, MK34, MK34 II, MK38 White