10440 to replace AAA

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Hootowl
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10440 to replace AAA

New member here. Hopefully this has not been discussed before. I did briefly look. I currently have a nightlight that has motion sensor & dusk/dawn option as well. It uses 4 AAA batteries that run for a decent time, but I just hate paying the money for the batteries. I have some 10440s as well as an assortment of buck/boost drivers from other projects. My question is being that the light does not activate until it is dark & motion sensed; will this damage the driver as they are supposed to be attached to the device they are running. I know they will be attached to the circuitry but the light itself is not putting a load. Will the circuitry be enough to not kill the drivers.

Robin Dobbie
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At low currents, alkaleaks have a surprising amount of Wh.

I don’t know if you could fit even a single 10440 with a boost in the 4AAA holder without mods. Depends on the holder I guess. Some really cradle the cells, some have so much room for activities. It’s very possible that a single cell would not last very long.

With multiple 10440s and a buck, that could last. How to keep those cells from discharging too far past 3V? All the little protection boards I’ve seen are 2.5V, and with a low-drain device, that’s really too low. And there’s a chance you could end up with protection boards that drain the cells even faster than the load! I don’t know why so much of what’s available for protection is terrible.

gravelmonkey
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Would it not be simpler to just get some decent, Low Self Discharge, NiMH cells and a decent charger…?

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Please enjoy your time here, Hootowl!

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jon_slider
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If you want rechargeables to replace AAA, forget about 10440,

and buy:

this Eneloop 4 pack with charger

flydiver
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I’ve got a bunch of AAA, AA, A, and C motion activated lights. Some are better than others.
For 4xAAA you definitely do NOT want a 10440 with boost. There is simply no capacity there. You will not be happy with the result.
Get decent AAA as suggested by @jon_slider.

I also have some proprietary lithium motion activated lights. Look like little flat fluorescent lights. Cute, work pretty well, BUT, the battery is a small lipo, like a very large stick of gum. In a year half the capacity is gone. Needs charging every 3 days. I modded one of them to use an external 4×18650 in parallel and it now runs more than a few days, but it’s not so cute anymore.

Functionally the light is just a number of LED’s and a diffuse cover + battery + motion sensor. I made a similar franken-light that runs off a 2’ strip of 12v LED, external motion sensor, and 2×3s/2200mAh lipos in parallel. Works great, completely ugly. I like it.

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Hootowl
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To answer all.
I was planning on using 2 10440 in series (7.4v) and placing the buck in the space of the other 2. I’ve already measured & was going to make a fake cell to house it in. The problem with rechargable NiMH is that they are only 1.2V. I was concerned that the light would not function because the NiMh,s would only be 4.8V total as it requires 6V (4 AAA). But to the initial question just out of curiosity, would the buck driver be ok & not be damaged.

flydiver
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If the light was designed for 4xAAA, the it’s highly likely it’ll work just fine on NiMh. ALL of mine do. The ‘big deal’ about 1.2v is mostly just lack of information about how NiMh works vs alkaleaks.
FWIW, the best you’ll probably be able to do with 10440 2s is maybe 320mAh…..maybe
With decent AAA you’ll get 700mAh+, no problem.
With losses from the driver you’ll be charging that thing every week, depending on your use.

But, if the experiment is important to you, have at it.

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Kwispelhond
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Hootowl wrote:
To answer all. I was planning on using 2 10440 in series (7.4v) and placing the buck in the space of the other 2. I’ve already measured & was going to make a fake cell to house it in. The problem with rechargable NiMH is that they are only 1.2V. I was concerned that the light would not function because the NiMh,s would only be 4.8V total as it requires 6V (4 AAA). But to the initial question just out of curiosity, would the buck driver be ok & not be damaged.

That’s not correct, the 1,2V is nominal voltage, NiMH’s load to 1,5V just as normal AAA’s do. It’s confusing but the non-rechargeable AAA are given their max or new voltage while rechargeable cell’s are given nominal voltage, just like the Li-ion’s that we call 3,7V while they load up to 4,2V, these 2 10440’s would thus be 8,4V just of the charger.

All batteries lose voltage during use, the non-rechargeable batteries also go from 1,5V down to about 0,9V when we call them empty so NiMH is a completely comparable alternative.

jon_slider
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Kwispelhond wrote:
these 2 10440’s would thus be 8,4V just of the charger.

NiMH is a completely comparable alternative.

I agree. Very clear explanation, I hope Hootowl hears you

Hootowl wrote:
I was planning on using 2 10440 in series (7.4v)
sounds dangerous

dont take my word, listen to this guy:

BATTERY WARNING: The QUARK QK16L MKIII will accept 2xCR123 or 2xRCR123 batteries. However, we STRONGLY ADVISE AGAINST THEIR USE. Catastrophic failure can occur when one of the two cells is not functioning correctly, causing thermal runaway in the other cell. There is a significant risk of fire and/or explosion when using two cells.

Eneloops are safer than a pair of LiIon

two 10440 in series is a dangerous idea,

based on mistaken assumptions about Eneloop not working..

they actually do work, and Eneloop are much safer than LiIon

protect your family from dangerous ideas that have unintended consequences, buy Eneloops and sleep safely

gravelmonkey
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1 eneloop = 1.2V * 900mAh = 1.08 Wh.
4AAA ENELOOPS= 4.32Wh.

1 10440 = 3.7 * 350mAh = 1.3Wh.
2 10440 = 2.6Wh.

I think. So yes, technically, a single 10440 Vs a single AAA eneloop has more energy. But in the configuration you’re looking at, the 4*AAA has greater energy.

Hootowl
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The 10440,s I have are rated at 350mah. I’ve used them in Mini Mags with a buck driver & they work well. I guess my main objective is just a simple solution to the “constant drainage” to my wallet vs battery. Sounds like the NiMh are a better solution as I really don’t want to add yet another project to my list. I use them (NiMH) in my remotes but that is another animal. I wasn’t sure what the effect would be for a light. Probably over-thinking it. Thank you for the input.

Quote:
sounds dangerous
dont take my word, listen to this guy:

BATTERY WARNING: The QUARK QK16L MKIII will accept 2xCR123 or 2xRCR123 batteries. However, we STRONGLY ADVISE AGAINST THEIR USE. Catastrophic failure can occur when one of the two cells is not functioning correctly, causing thermal runaway in the other cell. There is a significant risk of fire and/or explosion when using two cells.

Eneloops are safer than a pair of LiIon

two 10440 in series is a dangerous idea,

based on mistaken assumptions about Eneloop not working..

they actually do work, and Eneloop are much safer than LiIon

protect your family from dangerous ideas that have unintended consequences, buy Eneloops and sleep safely

18650 batteries are set up in this way in typical pack such as drill/tool batteries as well as laptop batteries. I have taken plenty apart to scrounge the good batteries & components when they, as a whole, no longer function.
snakebite
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dont be surprised if the unit works fine on 1 li-ion.
while it probably wont fit in the unit without some modding or at all 1 18650 laptop salvage cell holds double the capacity of those aaa’s.
led stuff runs 4s alkaleak to overcome sag at high current.
but even a used laptop salvage has very little sag in something like your motion light and most common flashlights.
i have a few motion lights modded to 1 18650 and a tp4056 board connected to a small solar panel.
1 has been in service 10 years like that.

Rockenrooster
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Kwispelhond wrote:
Hootowl wrote:
To answer all. I was planning on using 2 10440 in series (7.4v) and placing the buck in the space of the other 2. I’ve already measured & was going to make a fake cell to house it in. The problem with rechargable NiMH is that they are only 1.2V. I was concerned that the light would not function because the NiMh,s would only be 4.8V total as it requires 6V (4 AAA). But to the initial question just out of curiosity, would the buck driver be ok & not be damaged.

That’s not correct, the 1,2V is nominal voltage, NiMH’s load to 1,5V just as normal AAA’s do. It’s confusing but the non-rechargeable AAA are given their max or new voltage while rechargeable cell’s are given nominal voltage, just like the Li-ion’s that we call 3,7V while they load up to 4,2V, these 2 10440’s would thus be 8,4V just of the charger.

All batteries lose voltage during use, the non-rechargeable batteries also go from 1,5V down to about 0,9V when we call them empty so NiMH is a completely comparable alternative.

^^^
Its guaranteed that Eneloops will hold a higher voltage when under load than Alkalines. The higher the load, the better NIMH will do. At low loads though, Alkaline will “perform better” (hold a higher voltage).
Just lookup and compare discharge curves…

I have a 10440 light myself, and they’re cool little batteries.

Cemoi
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jon_slider wrote:
buy Eneloops
...or other AAA brand/models which can perform as well or even better, using this battery comparator from HKJ.

I chose Varta Ready2Use (advertised as 1000 mAh, I have measured around 950 mAh), slightly cheaper than Eneloop, and I am very pleased with them.

Ultrafire C3 2AA / Akoray K-106 / Nitecore LR10 / Manker E03H / Fenix HL10 / Zebralight H501R + H51W + H53c / DQG Hobi / Astrolux M01 / CooYoo Quantum Ti (lost) / BlackWater Kite Al / Emisar D4v2 (Nichia E21A) / Sofirn C01S / Skilhunt E3A

Rockenrooster
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Cemoi wrote:

jon_slider wrote:
buy Eneloops
…or other AAA brand/models which can perform as well or even better, using this battery comparator from HKJ.

I chose Varta Ready2Use (advertised as 1000 mAh, I have measured around 950 mAh), slightly cheaper than Eneloop, and I am very pleased with them.

Other batteries not from the same factory as Eneloop/Fujitsu don’t have the same cycle life/longevity. But it is definitely possible to have higher initial mah than Eneloop pros. It’s all about your use case.
I will keep using mine till they won’t hold a charge, I don’t need the highest possible mah. I need a battery that will last for years and years to come and no other batteries come close to Eneloop/fujitsu

flydiver
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Cemoi wrote:

jon_slider wrote:
buy Eneloops
…or other AAA brand/models which can perform as well or even better, using this battery comparator from HKJ.

I chose Varta Ready2Use (advertised as 1000 mAh, I have measured around 950 mAh), slightly cheaper than Eneloop, and I am very pleased with them.

If you have no use for NiMh longevity that approach can be used. Initial battery quality, capacity, and then use pattern ALL affect the ultimate longevity of a battery. Higher capacity NiMh of the same size, tend to deteriorate faster than lower capacity. This is from an interview of 2 Eneloop technicians:

****What is the differences from a technical and design/construction of regular Eneloops and Eneloop Pros that allow the regular Eneloops to retain charge for longer and have more recharge cycles and the Pros to have a higher capacity?

More volume is more capacity. The Pro batteries have a thinner canisters so there is more active material and electrolyte . The reason why there is a difference in the cycle life is the difference between the amount of the positive and negative electrode. The bigger the difference the more cycles it can have. With Eneloop Lite being on the exact opposite of the Eneloop Pro.****

The ‘regular’ Eneloop spec is 2000 cycles, the Eneloop Pro is 500.

In my ‘real life’ use of rechargeable batteries, going on 20 years now, I’ve found this to absolutely be true. AA NiMh that I have over 2500mAh, rapidly ‘go to hell’, (2800 NiMh go to hell fast) and aren’t worth much after only a few years. At…..very low…..discharge they may show capacities are aren’t too bad, but they stop being able to put out any kind of current, the IR goes WAY up, and the charging gets unreliable in ANY charger.

Then…..as is being discussed here, there IS differences among chargers, especially with regard to accurate termination of NiMh, which is actually more difficult than Li-on.

I don’t toss a NiMh for simply losing some capacity. I have applications that can still use them. I DO recycle them when the capacity loss is excessive, and/or the IR gets too high and termination becomes dicey.

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snakebite
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Also note that running 4s nimh increases the odds a call will reverse.
3s should work fine and when you hit 1v/cell you are very near vf of the leds.
So its self limiting and not as likely to reverse a cell.
Reversing a cell damages it.

Cemoi
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I agree that although Capacity may sound as the Holy Graal, other points need be considered.

My (limited) experience is (AA format):

  • GP ReCyko+ 2050 mAh: still very usable, and moderate IR, after 14 years!
  • Maha Imedion 2100 mAh, 13-year old: rather high IR, but as flydiver said, still quite usable in low current devices
  • Maha Powerex 2700 mAh, same age: I had to trash two of them after only 5 years or so, because of major capacity loss and high IR. Two other units are still usable but have high IR. This may back up flydiver's statement on high capacity models.

In AAA size:

  • 14-year old GP ReCyko+ (820 mAh) still behave very well,
  • 12-year old Maha Imedio (800 mAh) are also still OK,
  • 9-year old Varta Ready2use (800 mAh) still good as well,
  • Duracell 1000 mAh and Maha Powerex 1000 mAh were trashed after a couple of years (and few cycles): again a confirmation of "higher capacity = lower lifetime"?

I bought more recently (less than two years) Varta Ready2use in their more recent version (1000 mAh), too early to evaluate them.

 BTW, which IR values are considered good, fair, and bad, for NiMH batteries?

 

Rockenrooster wrote:
I need a battery that will last for years and years to come and no other batteries come close to Eneloop/fujitsu
Any source to back up this statement?

Ultrafire C3 2AA / Akoray K-106 / Nitecore LR10 / Manker E03H / Fenix HL10 / Zebralight H501R + H51W + H53c / DQG Hobi / Astrolux M01 / CooYoo Quantum Ti (lost) / BlackWater Kite Al / Emisar D4v2 (Nichia E21A) / Sofirn C01S / Skilhunt E3A

Rockenrooster
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Cemoi wrote:


 

Rockenrooster wrote:
I need a battery that will last for years and years to come and no other batteries come close to Eneloop/fujitsu
Any source to back up this statement?

quick 10 sec google search:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubcp8PHzUzY

Cemoi
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Interesting Rockenrooster, but to conclude they are "better than others", "others" should be tested in the same 10-year old conditions. And how about IR?

Ultrafire C3 2AA / Akoray K-106 / Nitecore LR10 / Manker E03H / Fenix HL10 / Zebralight H501R + H51W + H53c / DQG Hobi / Astrolux M01 / CooYoo Quantum Ti (lost) / BlackWater Kite Al / Emisar D4v2 (Nichia E21A) / Sofirn C01S / Skilhunt E3A

flydiver
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IR testing depends a lot on HOW you do it. Some analyzing chargers have an IR function. BUT….due to sliders and contact resistance that reading can be not terribly consistent or reliable. I have 3 chargers that will do IR. Best one of the lot was Zanflare C4, followed by Opus BT-C3100. The Littokala Li-500 was useless, always giving exactly the same IR for NiMh. I’ve tried 3 of them, all the same. Good charger otherwise though.
I finally got a dedicated discharger: ZB206+ and 4-point cell holder for the job. Much better, and consistent. Great device.

The numbers you get are also only loosely comparable. There is a method to do it with a good DVM that gets consistent results but I wanted the discharger function and didn’t want the hassle of using a DMV.

The IR also depends on size with large cells generally being lower than small cells.
All that said, good AA is under 50, OK is up to 100, degrading is 100-200. Over that they start to get dicey. AAA will be ~ 50% higher. And those numbers are my opinion, for my cells, with my equipment. Best to try to measure using the same equipment with the same technique over time.

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Rockenrooster
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flydiver wrote:
IR testing depends a lot on HOW you do it. Some analyzing chargers have an IR function. BUT….due to sliders and contact resistance that reading can be not terribly consistent or reliable. I have 3 chargers that will do IR. Best one of the lot was Zanflare C4, followed by Opus BT-C3100. The Littokala Li-500 was useless, always giving exactly the same IR for NiMh. I’ve tried 3 of them, all the same. Good charger otherwise though.
I finally got a dedicated discharger: ZB206+ and 4-point cell holder for the job. Much better, and consistent. Great device.

The numbers you get are also only loosely comparable. There is a method to do it with a good DVM that gets consistent results but I wanted the discharger function and didn’t want the hassle of using a DMV.

The IR also depends on size with large cells generally being lower than small cells.
All that said, good AA is under 50, OK is up to 100, degrading is 100-200. Over that they start to get dicey. AAA will be ~ 50% higher.

Yeah IR testing is difficult and can only be used relatively, meaning you results will be different than mine kind of thing.

Rockenrooster
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Cemoi wrote:

Interesting Rockenrooster, but to conclude they are “better than others”, “others” should be tested in the same 10-year old conditions. And how about IR?

I’ve had rayovac and energizer NIMH batteries and those have been trashed long ago.
However I do still have a couple rayovacs, as they were lower capacity than the energizers.
I also have some old eneloop pros that still work great, but I don’t know where they are ATM lol.
Also, my brother has/had some Powerex NIMH, forget what capacity, but i know they were less than 4 years old before they got throw away because they could hold a charge.

Also i don’t know of any other decade old battery tests other than eneloops, probably because other would be trashed before then.

12 year old eneloop test:
https://budgetlightforum.com/node/66360

flydiver
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If you do have a good IR setup, getting consistent results, it can be pretty useful. I finally got the ZB206+ and holder due to inconsistencies in capacity testing between various chargers, and even the same charger using the same settings.
That said, the inconsistencies were often the result of testing OLD batteries. Termination, cut-off, and self-discharge can be highly variable for old, high IR cells.
Those need recycling I found. Be rid of the headaches.

To Air is Human, to Respire….Divine.

Cemoi
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Thanks folks for your reply Re. IR.

My first attempts to measure it with my Opus BT-C2000 charger used to give very widespread results.

Now I use my BT-C100 to test batteries one at a time, 5 times in a row and pressing hard the slider against the battery, following advice given somewhere else on BLF. This gives me much more homogeneous results, and I keep the lowest value obtained.

With this method, I find that the worst I have are my 12-year old Maha Imedion AA (700-900 mΩ for two of them, 350 mΩ for the other two), and the best are 4 out of my 8 13-year old Varta Ready2use (around 150 mΩ). The 14-year old ReCyko+ are also around 150 mΩ, still not bad for such old batteries.

9-year old AAA Varta Ready2use are still below 100 mΩ, whereas 12-year old Maha Imedion reach 470 and 770 mΩ (but these two were used for a long time in a DECT phone, i.e. permanently charged at 100 % which is not good for battery life).

Ultrafire C3 2AA / Akoray K-106 / Nitecore LR10 / Manker E03H / Fenix HL10 / Zebralight H501R + H51W + H53c / DQG Hobi / Astrolux M01 / CooYoo Quantum Ti (lost) / BlackWater Kite Al / Emisar D4v2 (Nichia E21A) / Sofirn C01S / Skilhunt E3A

flydiver
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Those Varta looked interesting. Unfortunately on Amazon they are $28.47 for 4.
Fujitsu 1900mAh were $23.54 for 4.
Eneloop 2100 were $18.99 for 4 (plus the fake issue.)

Most of the ‘cheapies’ with more capacity, that I don’t trust, are much less expensive. Make your choices according to information collected + your belief system. Evil

To Air is Human, to Respire….Divine.

Cemoi
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flydiver wrote:
Those Varta looked interesting. Unfortunately on Amazon they are $28.47 for 4
 yell

In Europe we can get them as low as €6.45 (nkon.nl), but the shipping cost to the US (€19) is a strong deterrent unless you buy many units.

Ultrafire C3 2AA / Akoray K-106 / Nitecore LR10 / Manker E03H / Fenix HL10 / Zebralight H501R + H51W + H53c / DQG Hobi / Astrolux M01 / CooYoo Quantum Ti (lost) / BlackWater Kite Al / Emisar D4v2 (Nichia E21A) / Sofirn C01S / Skilhunt E3A

flydiver
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A little more shopping and found the Varta 2100 on eBay for $12 for 4. WAY better. Free shipping from Lithuania. Huh!

To Air is Human, to Respire….Divine.

Lightbringer
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Hootowl wrote:
To answer all. I was planning on using 2 10440 in series (7.4v) and placing the buck in the space of the other 2. I’ve already measured & was going to make a fake cell to house it in. The problem with rechargable NiMH is that they are only 1.2V. I was concerned that the light would not function because the NiMh,s would only be 4.8V total as it requires 6V (4 AAA). But to the initial question just out of curiosity, would the buck driver be ok & not be damaged.

If If If you got a buck-boost driver to adjust to 6V, then yeah you can use 2 cells in series, but keep in mind the voltage will range from 8.4V out of the charger to as low as 6V or lower when completely spent.

And they’d better both be protected cells because when Li-ion cells are in series, likely one will get discharged too low and fry it or get it fizzing.

09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

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Rockenrooster wrote:
Cemoi wrote:

jon_slider wrote:
buy Eneloops
…or other AAA brand/models which can perform as well or even better, using this battery comparator from HKJ.

I chose Varta Ready2Use (advertised as 1000 mAh, I have measured around 950 mAh), slightly cheaper than Eneloop, and I am very pleased with them.

Other batteries not from the same factory as Eneloop/Fujitsu don’t have the same cycle life/longevity. But it is definitely possible to have higher initial mah than Eneloop pros. It’s all about your use case.
I will keep using mine till they won’t hold a charge, I don’t need the highest possible mah. I need a battery that will last for years and years to come and no other batteries come close to Eneloop/fujitsu

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