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CR888
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sarge12 wrote:
CR888 wrote:
sarge12 wrote:
What you need to know about batteries is not that hard to learn….how to choose a battery for your device, and what to do, and not do to use them safely. Why cheap re-wraps can be dangerous. What is the continusous discharge rate of a battery, and why it matters. When it is best to not store lights with batteries installed, and some circumstanses when it is ok to do so. What are the chemistries used for Li-ion batteries, and why ICR is more dangerous than IMR, INR, or hybrid…mainly avoid ICR batteries which are much more volatile. Marrying cells for use in multi-cell devices, what that is and why it matters, along with how to handle their divorce when 1 in the married group goes bad. How and when to re-wrap a battery…it is easy, cheap, and necessary, needing only wraps, end insulators, and a hair dryer. I have over 200 li-ion batteries as we speak, and they can be, and have been used safely. Most mishaps involve the uninformed doing something to use their battery in a way it was never designed to be used. The Olights are indeed fairly idiot proof, but other lights can be much more powerful, and further throwing, but learning about battery safety is needed to venture into that arena safely. Some lights recommend protected cells, and some don’t, but those should be handled with care. My recent Wildtrail is an example of that. It uses 3×21700 high discharge rate cells, which can be safely used, but do not store cells long term in the carriage if the light will not be used for weeks. All this is readily available on the internet, and a guy named Mooch has extensive testing on most batteries, and his tests will indicate the best batteries for the job. Avoid super cheap re-wraps from dubious sellers, no telling what cheap battery they put under the wrap.

You say it’s not safe to keep batteries inside a light long term & refer to your WT-90 as it has 3×21700 high discharge cells. Does that then mean my Olight Marauder-II is a ticking time bomb? It too has inbuilt 3×21700 cells. What about laptops, phones battery packs for tools etc?

That olight has protected batteries!!!! Most multi-cell battery flashlights require the use of protected cells, and from what I understand laptops have protection circuits on each cell too. The WildTrail carriage will not accept protected cells, so yes, if the light will be stored for an extended period, remove the cells for greatest safety. If not, and one cell has an internal short it can do bad things even if off. As far as I know…almost every Olight uses protected cells….even most single cell lights they sell are protected.

Yeah I think your right, the 21700 in the Marauder2 are protected although when I opened up my older X7R-Marauder which has inbuilt 4×18650 cells they were pink Samsung 30q’s which U believe are ‘unprotected’. What’s interesting too is a local eBay li-ion seller that just sold high quality cells has been forced by eBay to shut his shop. He was the 1st one here selling li-ion cells through eBay & had been doing it for over 10yrs. So things are changing with regards to how the cells are distributed, not sure if it was a liability issue or not.

CR888

flydiver
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Maybe he just needed a pat on the head and reassurance. That is available here, but there is a ‘price’, adult learning required.

At least he had the decency to say good-bye, instead of the one question, never to be heard from again post.

To Air is Human, to Respire….Divine.

Boaz
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Don't worry ...the more you read the more you'll realize you're not the only idiot on the forum .

 

take Lightbringer for example Smile

       καὶ τὸ φῶς ἐν τῇ σκοτίᾳ φαίνει καὶ ἡ σκοτία αὐτὸ οὐ κατέλαβεν

                            

       Dc-fix diffuser film  >…  http://budgetlightforum.com/node/42208

raccoon city
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I bet Lightbringer will probably see that, though I doubt he'll care.  :D

Lightbringer
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Hey!

09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

djozz
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See, we were not scary enough Big Smile Wink
Welcome to BLF CRC Smile

raccoon city
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Lightbringer wrote:

Hey!

Maybe Boaz is dressed up as Dr. House and can therefore get away with calling people an idiot.  :FACEPALM:

djozz
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A few people on BLF have in my vision earned some privileges over time because they stick to being who they are. Boaz is certainly one of those, and Lightbringer too. Smile

Even the squirl was close to that, come to think of it, but nah, he was annoying. LOL

raccoon city
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djozz wrote:

A few people on BLF have in my vision earned some privileges over time because they stick to being who they are. Boaz is certainly one of those, and Lightbringer too. Smile

Even the squirl was close to that, come to think of it, but nah, he was annoying. LOL

The raccoon also comes close, but he's uber annoying... and evil!  :P

sarge12
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I want to add, that part of the reason to stress battery safety, is the fact that some people just do not think. It should be common sense, that one should not put a lithium ion battery in their pants pocket with their change, so close to important parts of their anatomy. There has been people who did that, and other equally illogical things with batteries. It is stored energy, and stored energy wants to escape the container it is stored in as quickly as possible. Some vendors might peddle weak containers, ignoring the danger in pursuit of the dollar, so avoid these profiteers. Use good batteries from trusted vendors, use common sense, and use batteries suited for the devices they are used for, and it will be fine. If a vendor puts a label saying 9800mah on a 18650 battery, that is a lie, as no 18650 battery exists with such high capacity. If they lie about the capacity, they might lie about discharge rate as well, so do not trust it. Buy quality batteries with a sufficient discharge rate for the device that you are using, and do not mix older or different batteries when more than 1 battery is used. Don’t use any vendor that peddles batteries with mah ratings that are not possible. A battery is not something to sacrifice safety in favor of saving cash. If a deal sounds too good to be true, it likely is not true. Likewise if a vendor claims their light emmits 5 million lumens of light, avoid that vendor.

MascaratumB
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CRC wrote:
Hey everyone,

Thanks fo all your input.

I havent had time to fully get into reading all the links provided, so thats why I havent reponded directly about anything yet.
But I figured I should say something just to let you all know I am still here and reading everything you’ve all posted.

Once ive had the time to read everything thats been shared with me here, i’ll get back with a proper response and some more info where im at and what specifically im interested in and confused about and trying to learn and understand.

Thanks to everyone whos taken the time to respond to me.

Hey CRC! Welcome to BLF Wink

I just wanted to let you know that…you don’t need to read all the things in the links Wink
Also, you don’t need to have “extra” knowledge or skills to be into this hobby (I say it by personal experience)! Although your wallet may need to have something inside… Silly

Knowing more stuff is good, and knowledge is power, but sometimes asking stuff here gives you direct answers for which you don’t need to search the whole web Wink

On a post above you said:

Quote:
Unfortunately I’m looking at a few specific flashlights that arent geared for the begginer it seems.

Maybe we can help you on this! Let us know what type of lights are them and if you will give them a specific type of use!

Don’t quit on this, unless you really want, of course Wink

Have fun Party

Oli
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There are some dangers involved and you need to be aware of some or most of them. I do believe that everybody should have a multimeter to be able to measure battery voltage. Even if the light you choose has an onboard charging system I think you should have a way to externally charge the battery and of course spare batteries. At that point you have loose batteries and you need to be aware of the dangers. So that’s why.

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I almost forgot the whole Olight angle. Most Olight flashlights use a normal battery that they have modified. So you can sometimes use their batteries in other flashlights without short circuits and you can sometimes use other batteries in their flashlights but they will not charge. That’s a whole other separate class. If you haven’t taken that class do not try to mix and match regular batteries in Olight flashlights or Olight batteries in other flashlights.

ArtieT59
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Crc- I'm an idiot and im learnin me some stuff. Just stick around here snd keep readin buddy, you'll be fine. Welcome!

[FLF] Five Light Friday https://budgetlightforum.com/node/78749

Check out some of my new lights (picture heavy) and quick first impressions of them here: https://budgetlightforum.com/node/77180

My Sft40 beamshots / comparison thread: https://budgetlightforum.com/node/78100

azj
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Hank33 wrote:
Has anyone here actually dissected a battery up till the oozy chemical sludge part?
When I was a kid I used to dissect Carbon-Zinc batteries, but that was because the larger ones had actual carbon/graphite rods that had all kinds of interesting uses…(to me, anyway)
Hank33
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azj wrote:
Hank33 wrote:
Has anyone here actually dissected a battery up till the oozy chemical sludge part?
When I was a kid I used to dissect Carbon-Zinc batteries, but that was because the larger ones had actual carbon/graphite rods that had all kinds of interesting uses…(to me, anyway)

Yeah it’s a cheap hobby taking things apart. The not so easy part is putting it back! Smile My next project is an old car battery. Those graphite rods have quite a few uses too. They don’t stick to metal. They don’t contaminate other metals. They stop oxidation. Good metal too have around. Smile

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I think you already know but there’s actually lots to harvest out of an old battery. Better that then if it ends up in a landfill. Battery Harvestingsmile

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The fact that you are asking these questions shows you have a healthy respect for the dangers of handling Li-ion cells. I think you’ll be fine with any of the lights you mentioned. All you need is some decent cells and a reliable charger.

Stick around and do lots of reading. There’s a wealth of knowledge to pick up from the experienced members here.

Perception
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I personally have not had good luck with Olight lights, to the point that I won’t buy another. My Javalot has been great, but the 2 batons I had were both glitchy. They never quit on me entirely, but they just weren’t predicable. They both had issues coming on in the right mode and with switching between modes. One of them had onboard charging that did not work consistently.

I don’t think the FW series of lights is for you. The people that got working lights love theirs, but search for any FW thread here and look at the number of people that have huge issues with them. ranging from small glitches to outright dangerous lights.

That said though, anything with a lithium battery can be dangerous if you ignore the precautions you should be taking. They do a good job of making them very safe, but google iPhone fire and you’ll get tons of hits from people with property damage or injury from a phone (iPhone or other) catching on fire. Almost all of them seem to have started though with people not taking proper precautions while charging them.

It’s really like anything else, learn a little bit and take the right precautions and you will be fine. You probably already do it in most areas of your life without realizing.

Think of it like a car. The batteries are like the gas you put in it. 4.2V is a full gas tank, 3.7V (or somewhere around there) is half a tank, and you need to refuel (recharge) when you get down into the lower 3Vs. The current is like the octane rating, higher performance cars need higher octane gas (generally speaking). Brighter lights need batteries that provide more current. And you need to use safety precautions when you refuel. After all, you wouldn’t light a cigarette when you’re filling up your gas tank would you? You already understand all the principles you need to know to use batteries safely.

flydiver
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You know the old saying; “You cannot win, if you do not play.”

Your analysis and writing clearly shows you are smart enough to get a handle on this subject. It may not be your ‘cup of tea’ (everyone has unique strengths and weaknesses), but you surely seem to have enough “on the ball” for basic competence. You’ve done a basic analysis of your problem. Now you need the info and skills to solve the puzzle. They are more basic than you might think.

Start small, work up. That’s what we ALL do.
So…what’s going on with your light? By your description it could be ‘the light’, but my bet is the battery. Fairly easy test, get a new top tier battery and see if that fixes it. All rechargeable batteries die. Yours should have lasted longer than that, but without some appropriate testing, none of us is going to know. THAT’S where some basic knowledge, and a few tools, comes in handy.
First tool, Do you have a digital volt meter? If not, get one. It is probably the most useful basic tool and useful beyond flashlight batteries.

(Note – due to pandemic issues, and commercial battery consumption changes, getting a good battery has become somewhat more difficult. Not impossible though.)

If you care to divulge where in Canada you live, there may be a BLF member who can help you out in person. Much easier and more fun.

To Air is Human, to Respire….Divine.

Correllux
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Well...I would say...do not despair.  Sounds like this is just a matter of defective lights, not your competency or ability to understand - not at all. 

 

I'm not an Olight user and haven't ever tried to keep up with their offerings' characteristics other than (stupid) proprietary battery designs.  It's good that they took care of you, twice even, so you're not out any cash, just a little time and frustration.  You might search this forum and CPF a little, maybe even youtube, to see if that particular light and time of manufacture is known to have some defects.  Sometimes those appear right away and sometimes they just fail over time.  If the third one dies, you might ask them if they're willing to replace it with a similar model if the design is likely to fail yet again (assuming there was a design issue and they addressed it...that happens a lot with many manufacturers if they keep the model for sale over time).

Hard to say anything about your light's issue but of course generally flickering indicates an unsteady connection of the electricity somewhere.  Very often that can be something as simple as stray grease/oil on threads or battery contacts and cleaning it up fixes everything.  Many lights use the connection between tail cap and tube body as a conductor, so having those surfaces clean is smart, too (and the same on the head end).  Many lights also use little skinny threaded rings to clamp the driver board into its place and/or the tail spring board into its place.  With normal use sometimes those retaining rings will loosen up a little and need to be snugged down again, or perhaps they were never snugged properly at the factory.  When they get loose the electrical connection either cuts out or becomes erratic and weird things can happen.  So checking these basic things is something easy that you can do and watch out for.

Defective batteries are rare so as long as you're using quality ones you shouldn't see issues there (contacts clean of course).  And then that brings us to the nitty gritty of more complex failures, which does take some learning and basic tools to try and diagnose.  Drivers seem to fail a lot although some last many many years with constant use and never give any issues at all.  But if a solder joint somewhere was poor to begin with, it may fail down the road and cause who-knows-what kind of issues, and sometimes the little chips and components can fail, too.  Maybe the stripped end of a wire wasn't done properly or positioned correctly and works for awhile before causing a short in a circuit.  These are things that are harder to figure out and understand, but if you want to (or need to) you certainly can.  And this forum is fantastic for that.

Other than the basic cleanliness and snug connection stuff, none of this is competency...it's just living with affordable electronic designs.  Smile   When we pay more money, sometimes the designs and parts aren't necessarily any better than less expensive items, but you're often paying for some availability of service after the sale, parts, warranty replacement, etc (and of course....the dreaded Marketing).  With some companies you're kind of on your own to figure it out and fix it, but ones like Olight and some others will be there for you.  They may not be "budget" pricing but they do have that going for them.  And then there are some companies who charge more, promise the service and assistance, and still leave you out in the cold. 

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CRC… It is really not all that complicated.
Stick with a good brand battery, Panasonic, Samsung, Sony… to name 3.
Pick a flashlight you want & just ask here on the forum what battery to get.

Many will say get a “protected” battery. Personally I NEVER buy “protected” battery anymore.

When I first started in this long ago I wasted a bunch of money on protected batteries.
Live & learn I guess. Wink

Anyway… choosing a battery is just not that big a deal. IF you don’t know… just ask. ✅

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Have you read the links I gave you above a few days ago CRC??
The one on LiIon battery saftey & then Battery University.

IF you have… what do you not understand about what you read??

flydiver
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You seem to be willing to do extensive research and reading on lights, but don’t appear to have done any reading on the battery links at all.
That’s a bit like reading about and studying new cars, really wanting one, but unwilling to learn to drive….because it’s too hard.

You have been led to the water. Take a drink.

To Air is Human, to Respire….Divine.

Correllux
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Basically you can think of cells in two groups as far as "matching" one to a light...and really that's not often a huge issue with decent cells. 

Low/Standard drain:  These cells have magic jelly inside that gives them a higher mAh rating so they store more juice and can give longer run times, apples to apples.  The tradeoff is that they can only handle so much heat (current draw) and these days that's usually at least 8 amps or so, and the vast majority of lights are still in the 1.5 to 6 amp range, so these cells are just fine.  If you put a standard cell like this into a powerhouse light that pulls 10 amps or whatever, then at a minimum there's going to be so much heat buildup and performance loss that you'll be unhappy...and there may be other issues with the battery itself or the components on the driver, etc, maybe even the springs in the light.

 

High drain:  The magic jelly in these is slightly different and allows them to withstand the heat of much higher currents running through them, but their tradeoff is that they don't store as much, so even with lower currents they have shorter run times.  These will generally be at least a 15 amp rating but can be double that or more.  We talk about those ratings with their "continuous drain" rating...what they can run at all the time and be happy.  They also have a "pulse rating", which is much higher and meant to convey what they can handle for brief bursts, like turbo mode or vaping or a "max" setting on a vacuum, etc.  You can put a high drain cell in any normal lower performing light, you'll just have shorter run times.

Then you can have added protection circuits to any of these cells.  Generally not necessary - if your light doesn't have any protection built in to the electronics then you just don't pull an oops and leave the thing turned on unattended to where the battery drains alllll the way down.  Otherwise you're good.  These protection circuits (can be read about and seen in photos in the above links) are tacked on to the standard as-manufactured cell by the companies that sell them.  Usually a tiny circuit board on the negative end, a conductor that runs up the side to the positive end, and another cap there...then it's all sealed up in a second plastic shrink wrap on top of the original manufacturer's shrink wrap.  Depending on the maker and the cell size/circuit choice, this added protection extends the cell length by 3mm-8mm or so.  Sometimes that added length is a problem for some light designs and you have to use plain normal factory cells in those (or explore modding avenues to let longer cells fit).  The current drain on protected cells is almost always lower than the factory cells...again, that just depends on things, and these days the current rating for some protected cells is a lot higher than it used to be, which is great if you want protection for whatever reason.  They also cost more and you're limited in choices.

So unless you have a high drain light that's really pushing the lumens for the included components, standard cells will often be a fine choice.  If your light needs high drain cells, then pick up a couple for the collection.  I would stay away from the cells with on-board charging.  I've only had a few of them and they're so-so, but all of them had lower mAh and two of them failed (charging circuit...cell was ok).  To make room for the charging components you necessarily have to reduce the height of the cell if you want to stay in standard dimensions...thus less magic jelly inside to work with.  They can be convenient, though, and in emergency times you can just use some other juice pack to charge them up whereas a normal charger will require electricity (unless it will take a 12v DC car adapter).

So...look at the specs for the light(s) you want and look up reviews here that provide real life testing with numbers.  If it turns out your light wants 10 amps then be sure you have a cell that will deliver, and if it's a normal just-a-few-amps light then you're good with whatever. 

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Excellent CRC, keep it up. ✅✅

raccoon city
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I'm sorry that you got scared, but maybe you'll feel better as time passes.

If you decide to come back sometime, you're always welcome here, CRC.  :BEER:

(And I don't think that you wasted our time.)

...

Although Li-Ion cells are really liked around here, you could just stick to AA and AAA flashlights.

Be sure to get some Eneloops, and you can still be a flashaholic.  :THUMBS-UP:

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CRC…. If I may ask, how old are you??

raccoon city
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Hey, at least you know how to use the internet and you found BLF.

That takes some brains.

I also have anxiety and depression, and am mentally disabled.

I have very few responsibilities in life, and I like it that way.

Plus, I'm pretty antisocial in real life, so we have some things in common.  :THUMBS-UP:

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CRC wrote:
F*** this s*** I'm out... After reading this, Im now terrified of my flashlights. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?141137-Inhaled-vapors... Im not comfortable with the risks I feel im taking everytime I use them. My batons have taken a few good falls and survived, but now im scared s***less when it happens. It took a good fall again last night, and using it afterwards the light output starts flickering and sputtering. Being that I dont understand whats happening or why, my mind just assumes the worst now. I couldnt continue to use it, and I definitely wasnt putting it back in my pocket. I dont even want this thing inside my house, let alone on my nightstand next to my bed as I sleep. This is the last of your time i'll waste here. Back into the dark. Bye.


PAUSE!  It is VERY important to note that this accident was with primary lithium CR123 cells...not the lithium-ion rechargeable cells that we use today.  That is a very big difference and you have to understand that.  The stuff inside the primaries is different, and while lithium chemistries still aren't anything you want to ingest or huff or whatever, the modern two main chemistries used in lithium-ion are not nearly so dangerous even if somebody causes them to vent by accident or abuse somehow.

Basically - and this includes all batteries (all batteries) as well as chemicals in general - don't drop things and assume they're ok, and certainly don't put your face in places where chemical gasses may be found.  Simplest of safety rules.

There's another story on CPF (a very famous one, and a tragic one that had lasting consequences) where CR123 cells (two...in series...rather than the one single that we normally use) vented inside a light and caused it to blow out the front lens and expel the gasses indoors.  That guy had worse problems, sadly.  It was also arguably avoidable. 

Back in the day there were also a lot of very poor quality CR123 cells from China on the market and because of accidents like these many people swore them off and would only buy known-quality cells until that was solved over time.  I don't think it's an issue today (?).  But again, neither of these were lithium-ion rechargeable batteries.

Don't put bleach and ammonia products next to each other or mix them together either, and then stick your nose there.  Mustard gas.  Smile

So...don't be scared, but do continue learning and just have respect for the energy we've harnessed for good. 

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