Wurkkos TS21 with Nichia 219c 5000k - perfect "daylight" neutral tint? Impression & comparison w/ other high CRI LED's

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jon_slider
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how crazy is this wrote:
The living room shots really point out the excellence of the 219c 5000k. Clearly the most accurate.
“accurate” when compared to 5000k White Balance, but at night, I dont see the Sun, instead I see 3000k Incandescent.

So the “most accurate” (“whitest”) under 3000k Incandescent White Balance, would be the LED whose CCT is closest to 3000k, not the 5000k LED… like this:
.

An example of the effect of white balance, compared to LED CCT…, I clipped these 3 red Hats from cannga’s excellent photos above..
.
Look at the backgrounds.. See how the one on the left is the “whitest”, that is because it is closest to the 5000k White Balance used for the photo.

otoh, look at the backgroud of the second pic, it looks least “white”, because it has the warmest (lowest) CCT of the 3 samples (519a 4500k have been testing around 4300K actual).

next observe the differences in how Red the Hat in each photo looks.. Since the 219c on the left is a 9050 LED, it has the lowest R9 CRI, so it makes the RED color Pop less, it looks more Maroon (Brown), than the other two 9080 LEDs. Iow, the 219c has the Least Brilliant (least accurate) Red Color Rendering…

cannga
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Jon you really make me nervous crop-analyzing my pictures like this Smile .

Kidding aside – I put the hat there because of comments you have made, really. I suspected you were going to use it and appreciate the good analysis.

One interesting aspect I’ve noted is I can’t control where that hat is wrt spill and hot spot. For example a bright more floody LED/light like Convoy 519a means hat is more in hot spot zone whereas 219b means it’s a little more in spill zone, hence dimmer/less exposure and more magenta’ish.

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cannga wrote:
One interesting aspect I’ve noted is I can’t control where that hat is wrt spill and hot spot.
all true, there are several variables in play, and photos are not exactly the same as what we experience in person. Photos are most useful for comparing various LEDs, when the observer has personal experience with at least one of the LEDs in the photo.

For example, I learned to recognize the “pink” Tint of sw45k in a photo, as an indicator of what my own sw45k use experience taught me. I learned SW45k made Red Pop, more than 219c, in actual use. I then made the “association” that Pink Tint “means” better color rendering.

but actually, Tint is separate from Color rendering, as is CCT.. In a photo, we are seeing all those factors combined, plus with the effect of White Balance.

in the “real world”, I do not actually see the pink tint of my sw45k, when it is the single light source my brain is adapted to. Photos are just indicators by association.

What I value most is direct experience in actual use. I find the sw45k is not pink at all, at night.. so, there are two main White Balance conditions, under which I evaluate an LED.. but I usually only post photos from daylight white, because the topic is so complex

changing white balance, not only changes the apparent whiteness, it also changes the degree of sensitivity to “green” Tint. Sunlight is greener than Incandescent..

so, I really take note of your direct experience:

cannga wrote:
Nichia 219b 4500k distinguishes colors better: light green vs dark green of the leaves, light gray vs dark grey vs brown of the barks. I too love this legendary LED and totally understand the obsession (grin). It’s a must have, more so than any other light in my modest collection.
really appreciate you taking the time to share your personal impressions in actual use. (at night)

I dont find sw45k too pink at night, but I understand that it looks too pink during the day, and some people use flashlights when they are daylight adapted. For example, an Auto Mechanic will probably prefer the 519a to the sw45k, because the Tint of 519a is closer to the amount of Green Tint in sunlight (nominally DUV 0.0032). For someone using a flashlight when daylight adapted, LEDs that seem too green at night, work fine during the day.

Some of the popular High CRI LEDs w green tint include SST-20 and LH351d. Since most of my use is at night, those are not my first choice.. I like 219b best (along with dedomed 519a), but am open to using 519a 4500k during the day, instead of sw45k

@cannga Im really enjoying your posts, photos, and perspectives.. thanks for participating in the LED color and tint explorations. And for putting a Red Hat in the photo for me Wink

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And I too enjoyed reading your posts Jon. You have a lot of experience staring at wall (that’s a compliment! Innocent ) and knowledge, and it shows.

As I stand for hours in the middle of night staring at the wall myself LOL, I also realize it’s a complex issue and I have to be extra careful with my description. One thing you might have said that I too notice is that the eyes/brain seem to adjust not just to brightness (constricting pupil), but also color (white balance) . If I look at 219b beam shot on the wall by itself it doesn’t look magenta, but the moment I start alternating it with SST-20 all of sudden 219b turns magenta and SST-20 extra green!

I think the above phenomenon is partly why photography exaggerates differences. Pictures of beam shots all together on one screen doesn’t allow the eye to adapt to one picture or the other, so eye/brain stays in “neutral ground” (for lack of a better word) and always notices one beam is rosy/light purple the other greenish.

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“Daylight” white balance is nebulous and nearly meaningless word choice, use the exact CCT. Also, without mention to any of other meaningful characteristics of sunlight like Rf, Rg, the Kruithoff Curve, violet content, cyan content, far red content, infrared content, R12, flicker, and spectral power distribution this reads to me like another thread on why some people like magenta-colored lights.

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Below are Nichia’s at different CCT’s. What has surprised me the most is how different the LEDs look, even within the Nichia family.

I am relieved at least that’s the two 219b 4500k of Emisar and Convoy look identical (Guys, one of you sells a funny 219b Innocent ) . Either would be a great choice and IMHO a great addition to any collection. I like the small form of Emisar a little better, and it is fun to look at, but how do you turn down a 30 buck 219b Convoy? Especially with the 21700 battery, it really is an irresistible force LOL. Since 219b is no longer made, if you don’t have one yet, don’t hesitate – recommended without reservation Smile .

Wurkkos TS21 with Nichia 219c 5000k is another great choice – also 21700 battery, especially if daylight tint is what you are after. It’s a keeper and a very well made light. It’s also the only one with on board USB C charging, which I hope Convoy and Emisar will eventually get around to.

Lastly the other Convoy with 519a 4500k: It came as a big surprise how different it is from 219b. I actually prefer the warm yellow tone because personally it’s more relaxing to me (vs magenta), but as mentioned, shades of colors such as leaves & flowers along the trail etc. do stand out more and beautifully with the the 219b. A comparison between a 219b 4500k vs my Nitecore MH12S 6500k is always an eye-opening (pun intended) experience. The harsh blue light of Nitecore SST40 makes me forget that the path is actually colorful.

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cannga wrote:
.
Great photo! really clear color comparisons.

regarding the variations in sw45, some are brighter and less pink, such as D220, or even D240, some are less bright and more magenta, such as D180 and D200

you may have seen this selection photo.. a lineup of some of my 219b 4500k lights, with varying amounts of magenta tint

.

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cannga wrote:
Beam shots of the 3 lights. On my two laptops neither of the Nichia has a green tint, but when I use the computer at work, the Nichia 219c has a very slightly greenish corona. This is an example of how evaluation of colors are tricky – the computer monitor if uncalibrated changes what we see.

I tend to prefer pictures of actual objects, a room for example, more than white-wall beam shots because pictures of these familiar objects that I see daily seem to tell me more about the color tone of each LED. Still, beam shots provide useful information, so here they are, taken with camera’s WB fixed at 5000k. To my eyes, the magenta signature of the 2 Nichia’s are fairly obvious (below BBL) while Luminus SST-20 has primarily yellow tint, and I go back and forth whether it has a green tint. If it’s there it’s exceedingly slight IMHO.

I also think the magenta tint is brightness dependent. It is more prominent when the light is dim, such as at peripheral spill, and less so when it’s bright, such as at the hot spot in the middle of the beam.

!https://i.imgur.com/J7aoXpV.jpg!

Wow that is such a pure clean neutral beam.

Glad I made this order. I wasn’t too happy with my TS21 using the triple SST20@4000k.

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jon_slider wrote:
how crazy is this wrote:
The living room shots really point out the excellence of the 219c 5000k. Clearly the most accurate.
“accurate” when compared to 5000k White Balance, but at night, I dont see the Sun, instead I see 3000k Incandescent.

So the “most accurate” (“whitest”) under 3000k Incandescent White Balance, would be the LED whose CCT is closest to 3000k, not the 5000k LED… like this:
.

An example of the effect of white balance, compared to LED CCT…, I clipped these 3 red Hats from cannga’s excellent photos above..
.
Look at the backgrounds.. See how the one on the left is the “whitest”, that is because it is closest to the 5000k White Balance used for the photo.

otoh, look at the backgroud of the second pic, it looks least “white”, because it has the warmest (lowest) CCT of the 3 samples (519a 4500k have been testing around 4300K actual).

next observe the differences in how Red the Hat in each photo looks.. Since the 219c on the left is a 9050 LED, it has the lowest R9 CRI, so it makes the RED color Pop less, it looks more Maroon (Brown), than the other two 9080 LEDs. Iow, the 219c has the Least Brilliant (least accurate) Red Color Rendering…

Looking through all these pictures, I think I found my new favourite LED.

That 219c is beautiful.

cannga
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dondizzurp wrote:
Looking through all these pictures, I think I found my new favourite LED. That 219c is beautiful.

Yes it does have that excellent “daylight” tint. The slightly off-white window blinds is closest to what I see in daylight when illuminated by 219c.

OTOH, the red hat is reproduced more accurately (closest to what I actually see) by 219b, as 219b 4500k has one of the highest R9 available presently, if not THE highest. Red hat with 219c is a little subdued, more of a darker red, with the 519c it takes on a vibrant golden hue, with the 219b it is just right.

So bottom line, IMHO “we” need both 219c 5000k and 219b 4500k Smile . I do recommend 219b in the Convoy S21D very very highly if you don’t have one yet. The S21D is the brightest and hence most “useful” in my small collection of Nichia lights.

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cannga wrote:
dondizzurp wrote:
Looking through all these pictures, I think I found my new favourite LED. That 219c is beautiful.

Yes it does have that excellent “daylight” tint. The slightly off-white window blinds is closest to what I see in daylight when illuminated by 219c.

OTOH, the red hat is reproduced more accurately (closest to what I actually see) by 219b, as 219b 4500k has one of the highest R9 available presently, if not THE highest. I would also recommend 219b in the Convoy S21D if you don’t have one yet. The S21D is the brightest and hence most “useful” in my small collection of Nichia lights.

I have the TS21 on the way. I’ll definitely take a look at the S21D for the 219b@4500k. Couldn’t hurt to have more Nichia in my arsenal lol

Thanks for the suggestion!

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dondizzurp wrote:
I have the TS21 on the way. I’ll definitely take a look at the S21D for the 219b@4500k. Couldn’t hurt to have more Nichia in my arsenal lol Thanks for the suggestion!

You’re welcome – I think you’ll love it. Note it’s NOT the magenta tint of 219b that I like (I don’t think that magenta tint is “beautiful” per se and actually prefer a more golden/yellow tone.), but it’s the way 219b uniquely make distinct and highlight different shades and colors of sceneries (plants, flowers, little rabbits, etc.) along my evening walk that is UN-MATCHED by any other LED. The night scenery is colorful and beautiful with 219b.

This versus my two 6000k lights, Nitecore MH12S and Sofirn IF22a, both great lights with incredible throw and brightness for security function, but erase all colors from my walk Smile . That harsh blue light is a color killer, depth too.

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cannga wrote:
dondizzurp wrote:
I have the TS21 on the way. I’ll definitely take a look at the S21D for the 219b@4500k. Couldn’t hurt to have more Nichia in my arsenal lol Thanks for the suggestion!

You’re welcome – I think you’ll love it. Note it’s NOT the magenta tint of 219b that I like (I don’t think that magenta tint is “beautiful” per se and actually prefer a more golden/yellow tone.), but it’s the way 219b uniquely make distinct and highlight different shades and colors of sceneries (plants, flowers, little rabbits, etc.) along my evening walk that is UN-MATCHED by any other LED. The night scenery is colorful and beautiful with 219b.

This versus my two 6000k lights, Nitecore MH12S and Sofirn IF22a, both great lights with incredible throw and brightness for security function, but erase all colors from my walk Smile . That harsh blue light is a color killer, depth too.

Good to know. I do tend to prefer a little warmer light for night walks where there’s a lot of greenery and nature around. It just looks so much more vibrant especially with high CRI.

5000k and higher tends to look “washed out” in way.

I’ve been using my TS21 SST40 @ 4000k but I find it a little too much on the yellowish side. I prefer a very slightly rosey warm myself.

Regardless, I think that 219b $ 4500k will be a perfect fit. I’m definitely going to look for one of these now.

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cannga wrote:
Below are Nichia’s at different CCT’s. What has surprised me the most is how different the LEDs look, even within the Nichia family.

!https://i.imgur.com/H2gw7je.jpg!

Smile
For me they are all good.
I like popping colors and the orange, purple, light yellow or grey vanish in real life use. And your eyes do whitebalance within minutes. The reason why you have whitebalance in your camara is your brain and eyes do it.
The brain uses the last 15 minutes to adjust color.

So the colors seen on a white wall beamshoot of one single light fades away in less then 10 minutes.
I think in discussions it is often forgotten that over time the tint and cct is less noticable for the eye.

There ist another thing your vision system can adjust to it:
Stare at this video for a minute and than look at your back of your hand.

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joechina wrote:
cannga wrote:
Below are Nichia’s at different CCT’s. What has surprised me the most is how different the LEDs look, even within the Nichia family. !https://i.imgur.com/H2gw7je.jpg!

So the colors seen on a white wall beamshoot of one single light fades away in less then 10 minutes.
I think in discussions it is often forgotten that over time the tint and cct is less noticable for the eye.

Interesting and good discussion Thumbs Up , and I agreed with you, but not 100%. What if you only use light on/off for short durations, say less than the 10 minutes per your suggestion, then beam colors matter a lot no?

In addition, I very easily could tell what light it is I am using even after 10 minutes in the case of for example 219b 2700k. Not just me but IMHO anyone would be able to tell its unique blood orange color. What you suggested, “less noticeable over time” sounds right, but to what “degree” is the interesting, and un-answered, question.

I do think photography exaggerates differences between LED’s vs real life view. And that’s why it’s helpful, perhaps exactly because of what you are discussing, “color memory.” Photography “freezes” the difference side by side, so you don’t have to depend on visual memory. Thanks for the cool video – seems like visual hallucination without “pharmaceutical” aid lol.

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Because of this little thread, I ended up ordering a TS21 Nichia 5000k (over a IF25A). You guys are such an influence lol

It’ll eventually be my first 21700 light and in Anduril 2 as well!

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Zephon wrote:
Because of this little thread, I ended up ordering a TS21 Nichia 5000k (over a IF25A). You guys are such an influence lol

It’ll eventually be my first 21700 light and in Anduril 2 as well!

Have fun with the light and glad I could help. This Nichia 219c 5000k is a wonderful LED without any nasty green tint. Please note because Wurkkos TS21 has such a small body (small thermal mass) it heats up quickly and becomes dim very quickly in stock form. Therefore it’s great that it has a UI that gives owners the option to a. set correct current temp and b. raise the maximal thermal limit. Please keep in mind the light will become hotter if you raise the thermal limit so take appropriate precaution so it’s not turned on accidentally while in a bag etc. and causes burn/fire.

Once you’re in thermal configuration mode as outlined below, first flash is for setting Current Temp (same as room temp, for example typically 21 C inside my house in LA), and second flash is for setting Temperature Limit, where you would click for example 25 times if you want to set 55 Degrees max (stock is 45 Degrees). For me, the determination of which is the FIRST flash and which is the SECOND flash was the most difficult part when I was new, but became much easier with practice. It did help to dim the flashlight before going into setting so the flashes are easier to look at and temperature doesn’t rise so much during calibration.

If you are new to flashlights (pardon me if you’re not), you might want to check out the magic of Convoy lights with Nichia 219b 4500k (for the best beam color on the internet lol), and Getian GT-FC40 4500k (for being the only thrower with “world class” CRI & beam color currently available on the market). They are my most favorites among all the lighs I have. Hope this helps and makes the hobby more fun for you. Thumbs Up Smile

https://budgetlightforum.com/node/81084
https://budgetlightforum.com/node/81179

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EDIT: I had first used a diagram from ivanthinking but then noticed it has an error so it’s been replaced with the one from Lux-Perpetua.

Here’s a good Anduril 2 diagram.
I got it from here https://budgetlightforum.com/node/76941. Thank you @Lux-Perpetua Thumbs Up .

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I haven’t tried thermal calibration yet. I agree that finding the ‘second flash’ is something I worry about. I thought I’d enter the wonderful world of thermal calibration (with the SC31 Pro) but it turns out that it was reading 5 celsius below room temp, so I’m good with that. I don’t have an IR thermometer so if it’s too hot to touch then yeah, step down by all means.

Yep, I have the Anduril diagram pic in my phone!

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Zephon wrote:
I haven’t tried thermal calibration yet. I agree that finding the ‘second flash’ is something I worry about. I thought I’d enter the wonderful world of thermal calibration (with the SC31 Pro) but it turns out that it was reading 5 celsius below room temp, so I’m good with that. I don’t have an IR thermometer so if it’s too hot to touch then yeah, step down by all means.

Yep, I have the Anduril diagram pic in my phone!

Thermal calibration is key with mass-produced Anduril lights and especially with a very small light like the Wurkkos TS21. TS21 gets hot so fast (its main weakness) that it dims extremely quickly, quickest of all the lights I have, and therefore for me nearly useless unless temp config is set up properly.

Re. the second flash for setting Stepdown Temp Limit, there is actually a way to check if you have made a mistake, and explaining this might be extremely confusing Smile , but I’ll give it a try.

ASSUMING the only mistake you could have made is entering that 25 clicks (30+25 clicks=55°) after the first flash, instead of the second flash, then what you have done is instead of setting “Stepdown Temp Limit” at 55° C, you’ve set the “Current Temperature” at 25°. To see if you’ve made this error, after you’ve finished, let go of finger and immediately read “Current Temperature”. If it reads 25, likely you’ve made an error. Btw I won’t be surprised if told I’ve lost everyone here. Sick

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BTW I have the TS21 for a while now and would still confirm that this is for me the most “daylight-truthful” LED in my collection of Nichia LED’s. If I ignore all my OCD debates/rationalizations about which LED is the most beautiful, or most eye-popping, or most CRI accurate, etc. and just ask the simple question, which LED most accurately depicts how the room looks during daylight, it’s this batch of Nichia 219c 5000k from Wurkkos.

My subjective opinion hopefully is clearly illustrated by comparative pictures of my living room vs a couple other famous LED’s on page 1. Essentially, if you are into collecting Nichia LED’s, this light with its “cool”/daylight beam color (vs warm) is also a must-have IMHO.

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cannga][quote=Zephon wrote:
TS21 gets hot so fast (its main weakness) that it dims extremely quickly, quickest of all the lights I have, and therefore for me nearly useless unless temp config is set up properly.

I find the TS21 to be nearly useless even when temp config has been done.

You can either make it 1) bright enough to be very useful and too hot to touch, or 2) cool enough to touch, but the brightness isn’t going to be enough for some situations.

IMO, you’re better off getting something like the S21D (another 21700 light) and running it at 35%, which is significantly brighter than the ‘cool enough to touch’ output of the TS21.

I would say that you could get the TS21 for reading books or something else that doesn’t require much light, but it begs the question ‘why would I get it at all, when there are other lights available that can do those things and more?’

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nicodimus22 wrote:
I would say that you could get the TS21 for reading books or something else that doesn’t require much light, but it begs the question ‘why would I get it at all, when there are other lights available that can do those things and more?’

For me, only because of the Nichia 219c 5000K, an excellent LED which AFAIK no one else is offering at this time.

There is a version of TS21 with Luminus SST20 LED, and I agreed with you there. No reason to buy that one. Sofirn IF25a has 4 of the same LED (instead of 3 in Wurkkos), better throw and brightness, doesn’t have the crazy button light, and doesn’t step-down as much. For me in every way a “better” light.

My other small lights (Emisar D4V2, Sofirn IF25a) have quad LED, TS21 is of similar size but fits only 3. That hurts its max brightness. Even with one less LED, something with the design causes stepdowns to occur SO quickly in comparison.

cannga
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Having lots of fun with my newly acquired Opple Light Master Pro. Here are the measurements.

Note how closely this LED hugs the BBL line. And the great CRI value.
CCT 4949
Ra 95.6
Duv -0.0008 (x 0.3465, y 0.3511)

Zephon
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Aside from the box label, is there a way to know if it’s an SST20 or 219c flashlight on hand? I mean how would a newbie know if it’s the ordered 219c and not a SST20 ‘accidentally’ sent over?

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Zephon wrote:
Aside from the box label, is there a way to know if it’s an SST20 or 219c flashlight on hand? I mean how would a newbie know if it’s the ordered 219c and not a SST20 ‘accidentally’ sent over?

You may be able to see the bond wires through the TIR for the SST20 version, but not for the 219C.
cannga
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Zephon wrote:
Aside from the box label, is there a way to know if it’s an SST20 or 219c flashlight on hand? I mean how would a newbie know if it’s the ordered 219c and not a SST20 ‘accidentally’ sent over?

From my own experience Wurkkos is a legit and good company. To prevent mistake, just make sure you order from their web site or their official store on Aliexpress.

https://wurkkos.com/products/%E3%80%90pre-sale%E3%80%91wurkkos-new-ts21-...

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3256803605719644.html?spm=a2g0o.productl...

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cannga wrote:
nicodimus22 wrote:
I would say that you could get the TS21 for reading books or something else that doesn’t require much light, but it begs the question ‘why would I get it at all, when there are other lights available that can do those things and more?’

For me, only because of the Nichia 219c 5000K, an excellent LED which AFAIK no one else is offering at this time.

I think I saw it in a Lumintop light earlier…let me see if I can find it.

Yes…the FWAA has it: FWAA at Killzone

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cannga wrote:
4. Calibration of temp is absolutely necessary. My TS21 read 24 C when actual room temp was 21, further worsening its tendency to fade when hot.

5. Increasing max thermal limit above the default 45 degrees C is necessary. At default level, brightness fades quickly, much faster than Sofirn IF25a and Emisar D4V2. I reset my max limit to 55 C.

Im a bit confused why everyone keeps suggesting this.

I just use mine as it was shipped and have no issues with it getting too hot or dimming.

Maybe I just dont use it bright enough or long enough for this to be an issue for me?

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CRC2 wrote:
cannga wrote:
4. Calibration of temp is absolutely necessary. My TS21 read 24 C when actual room temp was 21, further worsening its tendency to fade when hot.

5. Increasing max thermal limit above the default 45 degrees C is necessary. At default level, brightness fades quickly, much faster than Sofirn IF25a and Emisar D4V2. I reset my max limit to 55 C.

Im a bit confused why everyone keeps suggesting this.

I just use mine as it was shipped and have no issues with it getting too hot or dimming.

Maybe I just don’t use it bright enough or long enough for this to be an issue for me?

1. Yes that’s it. If you use this light at less than max level, or use it on/off short periods around the house, the TS21 is fine IMHO.

2. If you use the light for example for safety during an evening walk, where high output continuously is desired, then there are better choices. Its fast step-downs actually bothers me A LOT less than I seem to have written about. Personally I still love the light (it’s pretty, I need to collect this LED, and I use it around the house only), but as this thread is sort of an “impression/mini review” thread, I just feel the need to let people know what I found compared to other lights.

3. Having said that, I think it’s still desirable for hobbyists, with or without OCD lol, to have correct/appropriate temperature setting. And the stock setting is too low, for example versus the standard-setting Convoy lights. My beloved Convoy lights Smile seem to have the highest external temperature measured with my IR gun, around 60° C, versus 55° or below for most other lights. The TS21 stock setting of internal temp at 45° is way too low for its own good.

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