New Convoy S21D w/ legendary Nichia 219b :) - Impression & comparison w/ Nichia 519a & E21a (in Emisar) & other great LED's.

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cannga
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QReciprocity42 wrote:

The die sizes (area of light-emitting surface) are different. The 219B die is a bit over 2mm^2, while the 519A die is around 4mm^2. With a larger die, you can expect a greater percentage of the output to become “spill” rather than “throw”.

Thank you for explanation – now it makes sense. The two LED’s are so similar visually (1.5 mm vs 2 mm each side) I did not take into account once you square that seemingly similar size, the area is actually almost twice as big.

NeutralFan
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LucasRunner wrote:

I was wondering a few things:

  • light-up switches, how do they work? in which instances do they keep on? on the pics they seem to get permanently on? (noob question)

The lighted switches (like the ones you can buy from Convoy) are only on when the flashlight is turned off.

I’d rather use my flashlight around the house than turn on the lights.

cannga
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NeutralFan wrote:
LucasRunner wrote:

I was wondering a few things:

  • light-up switches, how do they work? in which instances do they keep on? on the pics they seem to get permanently on? (noob question)
The lighted switches (like the ones you can buy from Convoy) are only on when the flashlight is turned off.

For me a must-have for the 12-Groups Convoy UI as it makes both “click” (full press) and “tap” (half press) so much easier to engage. Especially the half press since there is a now a “built-in” FIRM stop at half press, the fixed outer metal ring.

They are also VERY pretty.

Mandrake50
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It looks like those switches keep the light from tail standing. Is that true?

cannga
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Mandrake50 wrote:
It looks like those switches keep the light from tail standing. Is that true?

They could tail stand but it’s not stable, especially for the bigger M21B. For example on a heavy dresser is OK but table probably not. A side hit on the table will make them fall.

Mandrake50
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cannga wrote:
Mandrake50 wrote:
It looks like those switches keep the light from tail standing. Is that true?

Yes but it’s not stable, especially for the bigger M21B. For example on a heavy dresser is OK but table probably not. A side hit on the table will make them fall.

Thanks for the info. I guess I will pass. I like the way the switches look, but need a good dependable tail stand.

cannga
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cannga wrote:
QReciprocity42 wrote:

The die sizes (area of light-emitting surface) are different. The 219B die is a bit over 2mm^2, while the 519A die is around 4mm^2. With a larger die, you can expect a greater percentage of the output to become “spill” rather than “throw”.

Thank you for explanation – now it makes sense. The two LED’s are so similar visually (1.5 mm vs 2 mm each side) I did not take into account once you square that seemingly similar size, the area is actually almost twice as big.

White wall shot showing difference in illumination between 519a and 219b in Convoy S21D. This was taken about 2 minute into a run-down from Turbo. No ventilation was provided. Taken with Canon DSLR in RAW format, 5000k white balance.

In addition, the difference in beam tint between 519a and 219b is pretty obvious. Both being Nichia, maybe I did not expect such significant change but “vive la difference” Smile .

BTW specs from Convoy – Flux: max 2000LM (219B) / 2600LM (519A)

cannga
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I have new toys for the S21D twins: clear optic from IF25a that could be used in place of Convoy’s stock frosted optic. Brighter hotspot, less spill: It should make the light more useful for my evening walk, especially for the floody and bright 519a.

The IF25a optic’s diameter is very slightly smaller than stock, but still fit without any problem as the posts are in the same spot and height identical. The LEDS are still in center of each optic (9 mm center to center). Where to buy – 69 cents each Smile Thumbs Up : https://www.sofirnlight.com/products/quad-optic-lens-for-if25a

Will get some shots on the wall of truth.

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Mandrake50 wrote:
cannga wrote:
Mandrake50 wrote:
It looks like those switches keep the light from tail standing. Is that true?

Yes but it’s not stable, especially for the bigger M21B. For example on a heavy dresser is OK but table probably not. A side hit on the table will make them fall.

Thanks for the info. I guess I will pass. I like the way the switches look, but need a good dependable tail stand.


If you want a lighted switch and tail standing for the M21B, just replace the stock switch with a 20mm light switch for convoy M21A M21B M21C M26C L2 L21A L21B S21B.

I’d rather use my flashlight around the house than turn on the lights.

undefined
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I’m looking forward to seeing beamshot comparisons with the IF25A optic vs. the stock S21D optic.

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cannga wrote:

BTW specs from Convoy – Flux: max 2000LM (219B) / 2600LM (519A)

I measured 2055lm for the 519A in the S21D on 100% (stepped down to 790lm between 105secs and 10mins), and 860lm on 35%, which is pretty good for the lights size and 95CRI. Convoy tend to quote theoretical lumens.
cannga
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NeutralFan wrote:
Mandrake50 wrote:
Thanks for the info. I guess I will pass. I like the way the switches look, but need a good dependable tail stand.
If you want a lighted switch and tail standing for the M21B, just replace the stock switch with a 20mm light switch for convoy M21A M21B M21C M26C L2 L21A L21B S21B.

Good suggestion thanks. Not metal but at least lighted.

cannga
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undefined wrote:
I’m looking forward to seeing beamshot comparisons with the IF25A optic vs. the stock S21D optic.

I sure will. Prelim result is excellent; as expected dimmer spill, but brighter central area. The stock S21D is nicely floody, but a bit too much for my use. The clear optic makes it a little more balanced with some spill + some throw. The Convoy now behaves more like Emisar D4V2.

The frosted optic makes for a nicer smoother white wall shot (probably one reason why it’s used, for the sake of perfect users’ reviews Smile ), but in actual use the clear optic is “better” for me because it increases max brightness (albeit in central area only). Any increase in max brightness is always a plus for Nichia lights for me.

At 69 cents IMHO this is a no brainer rec. for owners to try and decide for yourself.

undefined
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@cannga – I tested my S21D (w/ 219b emitters) with the IF25A optic. For me, this is a major improvement. It gives a truly defined hotspot and makes it much better for general purpose use. I appreciate you doing the research on this and sharing your findings, as I’m very pleased with the results.

Strangely enough, I think I prefer my IF25A with the optic that came with the S21D, so it’s a win/win. Are you aware of any other optics that fit these two lights?

On a different note, have you noticed any strangeness on your S21D in terms of brightness? I’ve tested two groups (#1 and #5), and the 100% on both is NOT max brightness. If I cycle through the levels, every now and then it will jump to what I would refer to as “turbo”. The easy way to tell, aside from the increased brightness, is that at 100% the light head does not heat up to uncomfortable temperatures even after 10 minutes of running. At the “hidden” turbo setting it gets rather hot after <1 minute. The light does not remember this setting after turning it off – it reverts to whichever setting it was on before you slipped into “turbo” and you have to fiddle with it to get it back there.

I would describe the perceived brightness difference between “100%” and “turbo” as roughly 2x. It’s very noticeable. It seems to be easiest to get into this mode by holding the button in just before the amount of pressure normally required to cycle modes, then releasing once it switches to “turbo”. I have run it at this setting to the point of it getting as hot as my single LED Convoys get (not too hot to touch, but getting uncomfortable) and it has not released the magic smoke.

cannga
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@undefined – I can’t say that I’ve seen any abnormality with the brightness. Not sure what is going on with yours but just a couple suggestions:

1. Turn memory off to remove that from the equation. Does the flashlight still have problem?
2. I use group 6 with memory off. Maybe gives this a try? It should turn on at max 100% every time and there should not be any brighter level. I will try your maneuver later to see if I could reproduce the “100 PLUS” brightness. Hope this helps.

Btw credit for the IF25a clear optic goes to poster “Verodin,” and yeah I am not going back to frosted optic.

undefined
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I tested the hidden turbo out with my other S21D. I put it in group 12 (100% only). Turn it on, then hold button and it jumps to much higher brightness and stays there. Turn it off and back on and it returns to “normal” 100%.

Two different S21D, same odd behavior. One is 519a, the other is 219b.

undefined
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Easy way to reproduce my strange “turbo”.

1. Set light to group 12 (the one that has only one power level, 100%).
2. Turn light off and then back on. Verify that half press does not engage other illumination levels.
3. Hold button in, not as far as a normal half press. This may take a few tries, but you’ll know when you’ve got it as the light will get noticeably brighter. When you release the button, the higher brightness level will remain.
4. When you turn it off and back on again, it will return to normal brightness level.

The 519a does this with almost 100% reliability. The 219b I have in mode 6, it takes a lot of tries in that mode to make this happen. I may try to change it to mode 12 later and see if it behaves the same as the 519a, I just hate changing mode groups on the Convoy driver… 20 clicks is too many, Simon!

If you’d like, I can try to record video of this.

Also, finally have both versions (219 and 519) of the S21D…. definitely like the 219b better.

cannga
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undefined wrote:
Easy way to reproduce my strange “turbo”.

1. Set light to group 12 (the one that has only one power level, 100%).
2. Turn light off and then back on. Verify that half press does not engage other illumination levels.
3. Hold button in, not as far as a normal half press. This may take a few tries, but you’ll know when you’ve got it as the light will get noticeably brighter. When you release the button, the higher brightness level will remain.
4. When you turn it off and back on again, it will return to normal brightness level.

The 519a does this with almost 100% reliability. The 219b I have in mode 6, it takes a lot of tries in that mode to make this happen. I may try to change it to mode 12 later and see if it behaves the same as the 519a, I just hate changing mode groups on the Convoy driver… 20 clicks is too many, Simon!

If you’d like, I can try to record video of this.

Also, finally have both versions (219 and 519) of the S21D…. definitely like the 219b better.

Please note my two S21D’s have the metal switch, not the stock rubber switch. I tried the above maneuver with 519a in Group 12 setting and cannot reproduce the “100% Plus” mode. Tried the 219b in Group 6 setting and cannot reproduce it either.

cannga
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stephenk wrote:
cannga wrote:
BTW specs from Convoy – Flux: max 2000LM (219B) / 2600LM (519A)
I measured 2055lm for the 519A in the S21D on 100% (stepped down to 790lm between 105secs and 10mins), and 860lm on 35%, which is pretty good for the lights size and 95CRI. Convoy tend to quote theoretical lumens.

Thanks Stephen. I added your data to first page of thread.

cannga
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Comparison of stock frosted optic vs clear optic from Sofirn IF25a. Shot in RAW with Canon DSLR, WB 5000k. Exposure settings are same for both shots to show brightness difference.

Less spill but a more defined and much brighter hotspot. Previously it was a very floody light, now a bit more balanced between spill and hotspot.

For my use, this is more useful so I’m keeping it.

cannga
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A:B comparison of frosted vs clear optic
Same exposure and WB settings.

swhs
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Very useful comparisons, but there is something to add, namely descriptions as to how you experience these various LEDs, in various situations. I mean the actual experience vs. pictures is not the same because we watch pictures on a web page (with more stuff on that page around that picture), in a room which has still more stuff that we can all see at the same time as that beamshot picture, such that actually what you show is not what you will experience when using it because our own white balance depends on the whole picture we see, so unless you watch in a dark room and only see the picture on the computer screen, what you see in reality is not what the picture shows. The more is on screen in the picture (the room) the better it is but it still won’t be the same so a description on whether “I get a pink feeling” experience occurs for example would be useful.

This is also a problem with beam patterns for cutoff lighting, actually even more so, which I analysed and explained on my website. I haven’t done this in in detail about the white balance, but I did mention on my site the issue with beam shots not showing what you experience due to perspective, the aim of your view (what you look at, and at what distance).

So various things that are obvious in your pictures may not be obvious in reality except in special circumstances. In your pictures the 219b shots I all see as pinkish, very unnatural, but perhaps in reality it works well in many situations, but not all situations! I ordered a D4V2 with 219b 4500K so I can try out different firmwares and try out these LEDs, will likely only arrive in a few weeks at best. I read comments that some people dislike the 219b in some situations, especially when there is snow, and that makes sense, it would give a pink glow then to what you see.

This is likely also my problem with the LH351D, in that the situation with lots of wood colours, things are off. I will do a beamshot session with the 219b 4500k, 219c 4000K, XML 4C, SST20 4000K and LH351D when the D4V2 arrives to see about the situations that I feel are problematic. I estimate that the SST20 4000K and 519A also ca. 4000K will be the best in giving good colours under all circumstances. I will try to get hold of some 519As in 4000K and 4500K…

Oh, something else, lit tail caps. According to Simon’s aliexpress pages of his lit tail caps, these take about 9-14 mA with a full battery, dropping off when the voltage drops. This would mean these suck an 18650 empty in a bit more than 10 days. That seems far too much (small LEDs don’t need so much power, e.g. you can run a 3mm standard LED that is rated to 20 mA at 1 mA and it will still be quite visible). In the thread “D.I.Y. Illuminated tailcap” a current is mentioned of 0.29mA, which is a lot better, that would take more than a year to drain an 18650 ca. 3400mAh battery.

Have you noticed such a high drain with those lit caps from Simon?

cannga
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@swhs, thank you for the thoughtful analysis. You brought up some very good points..

1. Metal switch: The switch is nicely bright so I suspect it is draining on the high side. I have used the light continuously so can’t tell. When battery voltage is 4.2V, the current for blue light is 9.4 mA, when voltage is 3V then current drain decreases to 2.74 ma. How to calculate how long this will last in a 5000 mAh battery? Any expert please chime in if I’m wrong: Is it 5000mAh/9.4mA = about 500 hours minimum? Current drain goes down with lower voltage so I believe actual drain time will be longer than 500 hours.

2. This is obviously not the place for a lengthy photography discussion, but yes, there is NO replacement for “live view” and photography must be used in conjunction, not replacing. Where pictures are useful is when the difference is small, and when you need to confirm your suspicion in “live view.” One example is the Nichia E21a: I’ve read all sorts of posts, some hate it, some think it’s the second coming. Photography confirms for me that it looks very similar to 219b. Only photography could “freeze frame” (vs fleeting visual memory) what we see and allow us to share the scene, often enough “more reliable” than our words of description.

3. Magenta or not? Multiple discussions already and subjectively how nice it is, depends on personal preference, no right or wrong. I would like to emphasize that objectively, the 219b is unmatched in its CRI numbers. IOW it’s still the king, especially for the color red (R9). Used daily in nature or in my cluttered living room, it distinguishes subjects’ colors better. For this reason IMHO a 219b 4500k flashlight is a good first start for any light collection. And for various reasons the Convoy S21D with that LED is the very top choice for me.

4. Lastly IMHO, if I want a happy flashlight life, I would stop doing comparison Innocent . Really, whether live view or photographically, comparison “magnifies” differences (partly why it’s so important for hobbyists). I never thought my SST20 4000k or LH351D 4000k were green until I compared them with 219b.

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Yes, 500 hours.

That’s mainly why I don’t like the lighted switches: they are quite innefficient.

Ideally, they’d be sub 1mA so that the drain would not be noticed much.

My very own high current Beryllium Copper springs Gen 3:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/67401
Liitokala Aliexpress Stores Battery Fraud: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60547

twisted raven
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Where are the objective data to show that the SW45K is unmatched in its CRI numbers? The SW45K has been famous for being a subjectively pretty emitter, but it has healthy company for R9080 rating.

Here are some actual objective data courtesy of Maukka:

E21A:

219B SW45K:

Optisolis:

SST20:

cannga
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You are correct – thanks. E21a is outstanding and I actually mentioned it in my post above. Thumbs Up

I have both Emisar 219b 4500k and Emisar E21a 4500k. I compared them with pictures and use them often https://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1847422#comment-1847422 . Both with my eyes and with photography, they look very similar (E21a a touch more yellow). So at least with the LED’s I have, subjectively IMHO E21a is nearly a 219b twin, meaning top-class CRI, but my opinion is to pass if you already have 219b, and partly why it didn’t get mentioned.

cannga
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BlueSwordM wrote:
Yes, 500 hours.

That’s mainly why I don’t like the lighted switches: they are quite innefficient.

Ideally, they’d be sub 1mA so that the drain would not be noticed much.

Thanks for the confirmation. Thumbs Up

1 mA might be too dim to see? I have a Wurkkos TS21 that has the same problem with light button drain, but since it has Anduril I could change the light it to lower output setting. Don’t know what the drain is but then it’s so dim I can’t see it.

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That depends actually.

Sub 1mA is very easy to see in the dark, especially if you’re willing to get a green/blue LED.

My very own high current Beryllium Copper springs Gen 3:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/67401
Liitokala Aliexpress Stores Battery Fraud: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60547

cannga
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One other reason I recommend 219b over E21a @4500k is, at least with my Emisar, the E21a requires frosted optic 10623 which makes it looks dimmer, and too dim for me.

When I replaced that frosted optic with a clear one, brightness is better but then I discovered the beam shot has yellow greenish ring/corona. 219b 4500k with same clear optic still shows beautiful & smooth magenta beam.

undefined
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The 219b is still the reigning champion for best beam and tint. It is something special.

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