Can the use of Turbo ever harm a LiIon Cell?

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CRC2
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Can the use of Turbo ever harm a LiIon Cell?

Edit: Modified the title from “Can it ever be harmful to a cell to use Turbo?”

Im wondering if when a cells voltage gets lower, if turbo can ever harm the a cell in any way.

Do I need to be mindful of using turbo in regards to cell voltage?

What if im using a high demand flashlight with a low capeability cell?

Maybe the driver type in this situation makes all the difference?

My signature should say it all.

Edited by: CRC2 on 08/31/2022 - 12:22
Codec
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Na. Especially if the battery(ies) is / are protected.
All turbo does is drain them super fast and toast your hands up. Just got my copper FW21 Pro, and yeah, my hands would literally burn to a crisp before the 21700 does. I’d also think that any light capable of a proper turbo (as opposed to a higher high) would have LVP anyway.
At the end of the day, a torch can only go as bright as a cell will allow. Try to pop turbo with a depleted cell and it may just step down or shut off.

Bort
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High draw rate accelerates battery wear. But if you do it occasionally its not going to be a big deal, you might accelerate its wearing out by a few percent.

As batteries are not terribly expensive if you can afford a new one a few years from now then i would not worry about it.

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wle
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i think if the battery gets hot, that uses some extra off its lifespan

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pingywon
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Bort wrote:
High draw rate accelerates battery wear. But if you do it occasionally its not going to be a big deal, you might accelerate its wearing out by a few percent.

As batteries are not terribly expensive if you can afford a new one a few years from now then i would not worry about it.

This.

You do risk shortening the life of your battery a bit, but by the time you care to notice, you could just buy a new battery.

They are all cheap enough to replace in a couple years.

Rusty Joe
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Nope, it just won’t deliver maximum brightness or else won’t power up the light.

CRC2
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Thanks guys.
My lack of technical understanding has me playing it too safe sometimes.

Id like my cells to last as long as possible. Theyre not super easy or cheap for me to replace ATM.
Im not sure id ever find replacements for my iJoy 26650’s I was lucky enough to stumble upon at a local vape shop.
I just worry that one day, all my “abuse” is going to result in… Bad things happening.

Im not sure how Id know when to retire a cell.
Id hope to just notice a decrease in performance, and not have it blow up or something.
Im only vaguley aware of something called internal resistance that I think builds up and increases over a cells life.
Since this isnt anything I can see or measure, I worry that one day in a few years, im gonna hit turbo and then “the bad thing” happens lol.

pingywon
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CRC2 wrote:
Thanks guys.
My lack of technical understanding has me playing it too safe sometimes.

Id like my cells to last as long as possible. Theyre not super easy or cheap for me to replace ATM.
Im not sure id ever find replacements for my iJoy 26650’s I was lucky enough to stumble upon at a local vape shop.
I just worry that one day, all my “abuse” is going to result in… Bad things happening.

Im not sure how Id know when to retire a cell.
Id hope to just notice a decrease in performance, and not have it blow up or something.
Im only vaguley aware of something called internal resistance that I think builds up and increases over a cells life.
Since this isnt anything I can see or measure, I worry that one day in a few years, im gonna hit turbo and then “the bad thing” happens lol.

If you are coming from the vape world and remember vapes blowing up in doods faces that was because the were using unprotected batteries and manual mods (no electronics)
If you start playing with that kinda stuff …yeah there is boom boom risk.

Short of that they are just like your cell phone battery. You wouldn’t shut your phone to “save the battery from degrading” right?

really the same deal here. The more you use the batts the more they will show wear (weaker) but it will take years I reckon. Cant you buy batteries online? 26650?

goggled – here is the first link:
26650

yeah not super cheap but if its a light you use everyday and you have to spend $30 on it in 2-5 years….kinda worth it wouldn’t you say?

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CRC2
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I dont actually come from the vape world.
I was just having a real hard time at one point trying to source affordable 21700’s (or any cells for that matter) online and couldnt find anything reasonable.
Still cant. After shipping a $5 cell becomes a $35 cell.
I’m not ready to buy a bunch at once to justify the shipping,
It was suggested by someone here that I try a local vape shop. Didnt find any 21700’s, but they did have two iJoy 26650’s.
I was told again by people here that they were great cells so I went back and picked them up.
Then quickly ordered two D4SV2’s to wrap around them.
Good to know Im safe though, and hopefully cant accidentally destroy anything.
In a few years, when/if I need to replace something, I’ll do whatever I have to do.

pingywon
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CRC2 wrote:
I dont actually come from the vape world. I was just having a real hard time at one point trying to source affordable 21700’s (or any cells for that matter) online and couldnt find anything reasonable. Still cant. After shipping a $5 cell becomes a $35 cell. I’m not ready to buy a bunch at once to justify the shipping, It was suggested by someone here that I try a local vape shop. Didnt find any 21700’s, but they did have two iJoy 26650’s. I was told again by people here that they were great cells so I went back and picked them up. Then quickly ordered two D4SV2’s to wrap around them. Good to know Im safe though, and hopefully cant accidentally destroy anything. In a few years, when/if I need to replace something, I’ll do whatever I have to do.

Thats the spirit!
are you not in the US?

CRC2
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Canada

pingywon
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CRC2 wrote:
Canada

ahh. I see.
this battery:
https://www.18650batterystore.com/products/samsung-40t?variant=371198928...

shipped in the US is still less than $10.
I cant speak for Canada because its asks for a zip code, but I cant find any Canadian equivalent to the US zip. I encourage you to check it out and see.

CRC2
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Same story as always lol
Apreciate you trying though.
Im not in need of any cells atm anyway.
I at least know that If I need a single 30Q, I can pick one up from that same vape shop for $12 CAD.
Thats all they carried other than the two iJoys I snagged.

pingywon
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CRC2 wrote:
Same story as always lol Apreciate you trying though. Im not in need of any cells atm anyway. I at least know that If I need a single 30Q, I can pick one up from that same vape shop for $12 CAD. Thats all they carried other than the two iJoys I snagged. !{width:88%}https://i.imgur.com/jQlqoVB.png!

I see and feel your pain. Sad

CRC2
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pingywon wrote:
If you are coming from the vape world and remember vapes blowing up in doods faces that was because the were using unprotected batteries and manual mods (no electronics) If you start playing with that kinda stuff …yeah there is boom boom risk.

Oh,

So all my batteries are unprotected except for my olights.
Im not sure what mods are talking about vapes. I dont know anything about vapes.
With flashlights this is still not an issue though?

pingywon
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CRC2 wrote:
pingywon wrote:
If you are coming from the vape world and remember vapes blowing up in doods faces that was because the were using unprotected batteries and manual mods (no electronics) If you start playing with that kinda stuff …yeah there is boom boom risk.

Oh,

So all my batteries are unprotected except for my olights.
Im not sure what mods are talking about vapes. I dont know anything about vapes.
With flashlights this is still not an issue though?

the light does all the “power management” yes.

Bort
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CRC2 wrote:
pingywon wrote:
If you are coming from the vape world and remember vapes blowing up in doods faces that was because the were using unprotected batteries and manual mods (no electronics) If you start playing with that kinda stuff …yeah there is boom boom risk.

Oh,

So all my batteries are unprotected except for my olights.
Im not sure what mods are talking about vapes. I dont know anything about vapes.
With flashlights this is still not an issue though?


Bear in mind vaping is harder on cells than most flashlights, if a battery can survive that it can power your light no problem.
If you have a high draw cell its even designed for high current draws and will suffer less from it than a standard li ion.

The Journal of Alternative Facts

"It is critical that there is a credible academic source for the growing and important discipline of Alternative Facts. This field of study will just keep winning, and we knew that all the best people would want to be on board. There is a real risk in the world today that people might be getting their information about science from actual scientists."

 

Lightbringer
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High-cap or just older cells have higher internal resistance. The more current you draw, the higher the IR drop and lower the terminal voltage across the cells, making it look more deeply discharged than it might be. Might be low enough to not let the light even start, and/or kick it out of higher modes, or quickly kick in its LVP.

With dumber lights without protection, the cell will happily, or at least grudgingly, dump as much current as the light sucks up, even if it heats up the cell’s own innards. I’m not a vaper, but those with sub-ohm coils, etc., have ended up with their Li cells going supernova like an exploding-cigar-from-Hell. Pretty sure we’ve all seen at least 1-2 of those fun videos.

You should be safe, but if the cell goes, remember you’re essentially holding a small pipe-boemb in your hand.

Most stock lights won’t attempt to draw so much current as to do that, but with modded lights that squeeze out an extra 10lm but at double the current, hey, you take yer chances.

So again, “should” and “if”.

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CRC2
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Thanks for the detailed explanation LB.
Ive seen those videos long before getting into lights.
So I started into lights with quite a bit of unnecesary fear regarding LiIons having no prior battery-involving-hobbies or any electrical knowledge whatsoever.
I’m trying to shed the last of that unnecessary fear here with this thread.

Ive always felt like Ive been holding a potential bomb.
Or in the case of tail switch lights, a gun aimed straight at my face. Since I beleive the tai lswitch may very well be where everything comes blasting out.

Thats why I pretty much avoid turbo.
Ive always known I was playing it much safer than I needed to be though and I hate it. So I just keep trying to learn more.

Flashlights are cool! huh huhu huhh

pingywon
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Lightbringer wrote:
I’m not a vaper, but those with sub-ohm coils, etc., have ended up with their Li cells going supernova like an exploding-cigar-from-Hell. Pretty sure we’ve all seen at least 1-2 of those fun videos.

You should be safe, but if the cell goes, remember you’re essentially holding a small pipe-boemb in your hand.

Yes this adds to my point. Those videos are/were guys vaping on what are called “mechanical mods”. Just like the name sounds they are a strictly mechanical device. You hold the button and the battery just dumps all its energy into the coil, making the coil heat up etc. Now, most of the mods have all the same electronic protections. The guys that still use mech mods (hopefully) understand ohms law and the risks of wrapping a sub-ohm coil.

CRC2
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Never ocurred to me until now to do some reading of info aimed at vapers.
Read some good stuff today that has helped me relax quite a bit about the potential dangers of using LiIons with flashlights.
Thanks everyone.

Lightbringer
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pingywon wrote:
The guys that still use mech mods (hopefully) understand ohms law and the risks of wrapping a sub-ohm coil.

Doubt it. Lotta them feel that if they can’t fumigate the entire room with one drag, that it’s not enough.

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Correllux
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On internal resistance and knowing when to retire a cell…basically with use (sooner or later depending on how it is used) the resistance increases so you get less juice flowing and more heat buildup. It’s a gradual thing and the performance (and charged capacity) of the cell diminishes over time. You can basically think of it just like a copper wire/cable. Maybe battery cables in a car are a good analogy.

When the battery cables get some corrosion through longevity and/or exposure to the elements, they develop higher resistance to the electricity trying to flow through them. If that corrosion gets high enough then you will notice sluggish starting, or maybe a click followed by the engine starting. If it gets worse, then that juice just can’t flow enough from the battery to the starter motor because the corroded cable is restricting the flow too much. Inside a battery it’s essentially the same.

Manufacturers typically rate the cells as so many charge/discharge cycles until the original capacity is diminished to 80% or something. At that point the cell still works fine, it just has shorter run time and perhaps more heat buildup in use and while charging it up, but it’s a workable battery with a lot of life in it still. For higher draw lights you may want to get a new cell then and use the worn cell for lower power lights or some other gadget.

The exception to the gradual buildup of internal resistance is when a cell is allowed to be reeaallly discharged…..we’ve talked about that before but 2.5v is usually the recommended low point but it’s not concrete. If a cell discharges to that level then it’s usually still fine, just charge it up slowly and keep an eye on it…maybe measure it after charging to see if it maintains voltage over a few days, etc. If that cell is allowed to remain in that very low discharged state then the chemistry can do its chemistry thing and resistance will increase (where it probably won’t if you charge it up again asap). The lower that discharge point, the higher the chance (or guarantee) of increased resistance. At 2.0v or lower, most people choose to trash/recycle the cell and play it safe, which is smart. If a cell that low charges up it may still be alright but will show that reduction in capacity/increase in heat. That can happen in a brand new cell, not just well used ones. Generally our drivers aren’t going to let a light ever drain that low, but you’ve probably read about aux lights allowing it to happen if people totally ignore their lights that have an issue there…and a truly “dumb” driver that doesn’t have low voltage protection (an actual cut off for the circuit) will let it deplete entirely, or almost.

Best practice is usually to recharge at 3.2V or so, or even a bit higher than that, if your interest is in longest health/life for the cells. In regular use, taking them lower and charging them up is fine…most lights seem to put their cut off point at 2.8v or 2.7v to try and maximize run time and not leave you in the dark (say, cell is dead but you still need some light and maybe moonlight or low is enough to serve your needs for a bit). If you could keep your cells in a stasis near their 3.7v nominal rating, they’d be happiest. But we charge higher and we drain lower, so the more those two parameters are pushed and the more heat the cell sees in action…scrubs a little life away bit by bit. Generally don’t worry about it. When you notice on the charger readout or in performance/run time that the cell isn’t what it used to be, consider a new one, etc.

CRC2
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Hey! I really appreciate you Correllux. Many thanks.
I think I can finally relax and fully enjoy my flashlights.
For too long now my misunderstandings have had me believing that certain cells in combination with certain drivers could result in… Consequences.

Correllux
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CRC2 wrote:
Hey! I really appreciate you Correllux. Many thanks. I think I can finally relax and fully enjoy my flashlights. For too long now my misunderstandings have had me believing that certain cells in combination with certain drivers could result in… Consequences.

Glad to hear it, CRC. You’re learned a lot over the last year or whatever, and you weren’t sure you could! Way to prove yourself wrong, in the best of ways. lol I’m sure you’ll keep learning more and more…your mods and accessories show that you’re hooked. Smile