Lithium Fires

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Muto
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Lithium Fires

This is what will keep many from strapping themselves into an Electric car;
https://www.abc27.com/pennsylvania/incredible-photos-show-unidentifiable...

12,000 gallons of water to keep it out and all caused because they hit some debris in the road?

Need better tech on these batteries or something.
Scary, that’s all.

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thefreeman
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Geo blocked website, probably for all EU

gravelmonkey
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I dunno, plenty drive petrol (gasoline) cars, including myself, when technically safer fuel (diesel) is available… If I could afford one, I’d own an electric car…

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@the freeman
Here’s the text, not sure if i can grab the photos. It’s a click bait site with lots of ads.

CLEARFIELD COUNTY, Pa. (WTAJ) — Just hours before the region was hit with a wintery mix on Tuesday, a Tesla caught fire on Interstate 80 in Clearfield County.

According to state police, a Tesla, the most popular brand of electric vehicles, was traveling west on I-80 when it caught fire. One lane along mile marker 137 westbound was restricted for some time as crews were putting out the fire.

The couple, Michelle and Bob, were driving their Tesla Model S on a road trip to Yarmouth, Massachusetts to visit a relative. *They had just brought the car home last Monday. According to the couple’s daughter, a large piece of debris was in the middle of the road and they were unable to avoid it.

Once the debris went underneath the car it started to smoke. After they pulled over and got out of the car, it immediately caught fire.* The couple and their dog, Coco, are safe and were uninjured.

Morris Township Volunteer Fire Company #1 responded to the fire to assist the Winburne Fire Company.

Crews spent nearly two hours and approximately 12,000 gallons of water to extinguish the blaze due to the vehicle’s lithium-ion battery which continued to reignite.

This vehicle burnt so hot and long that if it was not for the rims you might not even of know it was a vehicle.
MORRIS TOWNSHIP VOLUNTEER FIRE COMPANY #1 FACEBOOK
Columbia Volunteer Fire Company was also at the scene and said they believe this was the first reported Tesla fire in the area.

This is the first known Tesla Fire in this area to our knowledge. Training and pre planning for an incident like this is key. Today that knowledge was put to the task, and the incident operated smoothly. Was a great learning experience for all, especially as the car industry progresses as we see it today.
COLUMBIA VOLUNTEER FIRE COMPANY FACEBOOK
Tesla has made some headlines lately with various recalls over the past year, but none for batteries, although it’s unknown if that’s the reason for this fire.

Pictures of car burning, large plume of smoke, afterwards pictures of pile of burnt car.

[edit] car ran over some debris in the road and likely did some damage that shorted the pack. Same sort of fire can result from an oil pan or fuel tank puncture.

Now i used to think that i was cool,
drivin' around on fossil fuel,
until i saw what i was doin',
was drivin' down the road to ruin. --JT

alpg88
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No, that is not what keeps many from driving an ev. Price, range and need of a garage to charge one. is what keeps most from owing,  these cars are best to use in the city, but city folks mostly live in apartments, park their cars on streets,  and have no way of charging it there.  statistically gasoline cars burn more often, i've seen quite a few burned down cars on the side of the roads in my life,  but i've yet to see a tesla burned down, and i live in NYC, one of the most densely populated city, by people and their cars.

Also do not discount insurance jobs, people want to get out of lease or a loan with no penalties and hussle.  so they torch cars, electric and gasoline. sometimes they get away, sometimes they get caught. 

Venom
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I thought water has no effect on Lithium fire, or makes it worst.

raccoon city
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Venom wrote:

I thought water has no effect on Lithium fire, or makes it worst.

As far as I have read, that only applies to the element Lithium, not specific Lithium alloys like these.  :THUMBS-UP:

Oops...

Maybe I'm wrong.  :FACEPALM:

alpg88
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Venom wrote:
I thought water has no effect on Lithium fire, or makes it worst.

 

you are right it does not, what FD does by pouring 1000s of gallons is keeps the fire contained until cells burn out,  you need yellow fire extinguisher for metal fires to deal with it,  at least in theory, in reality when cells go, they go in violent way and until they burn out you can not really do anything, especially when such fire has that many cells in a metal box. 

Oli
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Yes all the fire department is doing is keeping things outside of the car such as the asphalt road or trees or houses or guardrails or power lines from being damaged. Various car makers have weighed in and told fire departments to just keep dousing with water too limit surrounding damage. If the vehicle is close to something that could be damaged, they recommend to attempt to drag or push the vehicle to a safer area. I don’t know how they could get a chain on it. A front end loader could push it around pretty easily. That’s assuming you can get a front end loader readily available and have access to push from a direction that’s not boxed in.

You can't compare the big flashlight in the sky to the little flashlight in your hand.

Venom
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alpg88 wrote:

Venom wrote:
I thought water has no effect on Lithium fire, or makes it worst.

 

you are right it does not, what FD does by pouring 1000s of gallons is keeps the fire contained until cells burn out,  you need yellow fire extinguisher for metal fires to deal with it,  at least in theory, in reality when cells go, they go in violent way and until they burn out you can not really do anything, especially when such fire has that many cells in a metal box. 

The city fire department supposed to have tanks on the trucks similar to a Class D fire extinguisher for Lithium fire. The city saw an increase in electric cars being sold and knew there going to be issues. Plus idiots vaping, that shouldn’t be. I think the tanks has enough suppressing agents to put out 3 Lithium car fires. Then the tank needs a refill. Plus hand held extinguisher for the vapers.

The oxygen fed suits needed a part (forgot what it was) to safely put out Lithium fires.

Venom
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Oli wrote:
Yes all the fire department is doing is keeping things outside of the car such as the asphalt road or trees or houses or guardrails or power lines from being damaged. Various car makers have weighed in and told fire departments to just keep dousing with water too limit surrounding damage. If the vehicle is close to something that could be damaged, they recommend to attempt to drag or push the vehicle to a safer area. I don’t know how they could get a chain on it. A front end loader could push it around pretty easily. That’s assuming you can get a front end loader readily available and have access to push from a direction that’s not boxed in.

Here, We have a problem with houses built on top of each other. If a fire start the house next door will catch on fire to. The fire department will have people extinguish the house fire, while the other hose down the surrounding. To prevent the fire from spreading.

The same principal as you mentioned. To eliminate the surrounding area from potential damage.

As far as I know. Here, there’s more Lithium fires from vapers than EVs.

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Once I’ve seen how the firefighters used a forklift to dump a burning EV into a huge skip and filled this with water.
The bubbling and boiling arrangement was then transported away on a dump truck.

An inglorious ending to the silly idea of driving an upscaled RC on public roads.

All the engineering and science in combustion engines will be lost forever.
E-fuels would have been the solution,
but the lobbyists have achieved their goals, full bank accounts,
on the cost of the environment far away from our media consumption habits.

And then they are concussing everyone with blackout in winter.

So go on, charge as much what wires bring,
as much as gas- and coal-fired power stations can pollute,
but keep your conscience clean!

Who cares for a stupid blackout in winter. Let’s burn some plastic garbage to finalize winter at all.
They promised global warming, but winter is coming again.
LIARS!
Did not use enough electricity for charging cars!

xevious
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Electrical fires are so much different than normal carbon based fires. You don’t use water to put them out. Some fire personnel are trained for that, but I suspect many are not.

Tesla broke the ice on EV cars. They really achieved something that no other car company had yet done. But… are they the best choice? I think not, for many reasons (and you can find that all over the Internet, people’s expert opinions on Tesla cars). What they did acheive was confidence for the major automakers, showing that it can be done and people would buy them. Now the big ones have entered the party.

The HUGE difference from the major auto makers and Tesla is experience. They know all about vehicle and powerplant safety concerns and the imperative to address them. Tesla probably didn’t anticipate enough for the kind of undercarriage damage that can occur and opted for a lighter kind of shielding that wasn’t enough in this case. Granted, it was probably a rare occurrence, something getting caught under the car in just the right way to catch fire and then set the vehicle on fire. But still… never skimp on safety when it comes to lithium cells!

In the future, we’ll have solid state lithium cells in production (successful prototypes have already been made) and they’re so tolerant of damage you can cut through them with a blade and they won’t explode. I don’t know if the nature of that chemistry is workable for cars yet, but hopefully in the future they will.

What really gets my gourd at this point is that EV is being so heavily promoted when, as others have stated, the entry cost is just too high. And really, if you’re charging from the grid and the grid uses fossil fuels… you’re just shifting the problem around! By this very problem, the only sensible approach right now (until the grid uses more environmentally friendly sources) is hybrids. They have the flexibility for multiple fuel sources, no painful limitations on range (you don’t have to waste 30 to 120 mins waiting for your car to recharge), plus the battery packs aren’t as huge as full EV… less costly, easier to maintain and refurbish. My next vehicle will be a hybrid.

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Venom wrote:
Here, We have a problem with houses built on top of each other. If a fire start the house next door will catch on fire to. The fire department will have people extinguish the house fire, while the other hose down the surrounding. To prevent the fire from spreading.

The same principal as you mentioned. To eliminate the surrounding area from potential damage.

As far as I know. Here, there’s more Lithium fires from vapers than EVs.

A relative of mine lives in a condo community where the units are physically attached in 8~10 unit rows. And yeah, just recently one unit 2 rows over had a fire… and it spread, destroying the two units next to it, and ones further away suffered such bad smoke damage that they all had to be gutted. It’s really astounding how fire codes can be so lax with home construction.

Btw, hadn’t even thought about vaping… just imagining a vast majority of people buying these lithium cells and charging them without a care in the world, not even realizing that cheap vaping devices can have suspect battery management and recharging circuits/firmware. Plus, people having spare battery cells lying around… these folks aren’t flashlight or RC hobbyists that have learned a lot about managing dangerous lithium batteries!

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Venom wrote:
alpg88 wrote:

Venom wrote:
I thought water has no effect on Lithium fire, or makes it worst.

 

you are right it does not, what FD does by pouring 1000s of gallons is keeps the fire contained until cells burn out,  you need yellow fire extinguisher for metal fires to deal with it,  at least in theory, in reality when cells go, they go in violent way and until they burn out you can not really do anything, especially when such fire has that many cells in a metal box. 

The city fire department supposed to have tanks on the trucks similar to a Class D fire extinguisher for Lithium fire. The city saw an increase in electric cars being sold and knew there going to be issues. Plus idiots vaping, that shouldn't be. I think the tanks has enough suppressing agents to put out 3 Lithium car fires. Then the tank needs a refill. Plus hand held extinguisher for the vapers. The oxygen fed suits needed a part (forgot what it was) to safely put out Lithium fires.

Well they do not, they only have 20lb or smaller extinguishers, of several types.aside from  several thousands gallons tank and a pump they hook up to a hydrant,  they may as well have a D class extinguisher, but it wont do anything to a tesla battery, especially since it burns inside a metal box, with practically no way to get the solution inside the box.  Pretty much the only team that can deal with such fire is airport fire dept, with their foam trucks. but no city FD has those.  I'm a building engineer, our fire safety director is a former FDNY, and he drives a tesla, we had this conversation with him. 

The "oxygen suite" is not really a suite, it is a SCBA, a tank with compressed air, and a mask. lasts about 30 min fully charged.  i have one at home, keep it just in case, hope i never have to use it.  the suite is made to protect from heat, and flames, not toxic gases

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Today the dangers that come from the ground are only appreciated in military vehicles. In the good old days one could buy an oil pan guard, after some effort. Today they are in NL only available from custom shops who specialize in rally and off-road cars. One might say that the roads have become much cleaner and safer, but people and cars are less prepared for what happens if something does go wrong.

I know Tesla is constantly focussing on efficacy and efficiency, to save weight and cost. The new “battery holder” is going to be part of the body shell on the underside of the vehicle. Thus making it even more vulnerable to debris on the road. That’s not a good strategy to handle things like these, if you (would) ask me.

You are a flashaholic if you are forced to come out of the closet, to make room for more flashlights.

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xevious wrote:
A relative of mine lives in a condo community where the units are physically attached in 8~10 unit rows. And yeah, just recently one unit 2 rows over had a fire… and it spread, destroying the two units next to it, and ones further away suffered such bad smoke damage that they all had to be gutted. It’s really astounding how fire codes can be so lax with home construction.

Btw, hadn’t even thought about vaping… just imagining a vast majority of people buying these lithium cells and charging them without a care in the world, not even realizing that cheap vaping devices can have suspect battery management and recharging circuits/firmware. Plus, people having spare battery cells lying around… these folks aren’t flashlight or RC hobbyists that have learned a lot about managing dangerous lithium batteries!

This was a problem the city was facing. The city didn’t know much about Lithium fires at that time. Until a vaper cause a fire that took to long to extinguish with just water. The city then realize they have to do research on Lithium fire. Especially when building are on top of each other.

I live in a small city. By building as much houses as they, can equal to more property tax. Today, due to codes. The houses has to built further apart from each other. By some people standard, It’s not far apart from each other.

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thefreeman wrote:
Geo blocked website, probably for all EU

Exactly. Sad

Venom
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alpg88 wrote:
Well they do not, they only have 20lb or smaller extinguishers, of several types.aside from  several thousands gallons tank and a pump they hook up to a hydrant,  they may as well have a D class extinguisher, but it wont do anything to a tesla battery, especially since it burns inside a metal box, with practically no way to get the solution inside the box.  Pretty much the only team that can deal with such fire is airport fire dept, with their foam trucks. but no city FD has those.  I’m a building engineer, our fire safety director is a former FDNY, and he drives a tesla, we had this conversation with him.

The “oxygen suite” is not really a suite, it is a SCBA, a tank with compressed air, and a mask. lasts about 30 min fully charged.  i have one at home, keep it just in case, hope i never have to use it.  the suite is made to protect from heat, and flames, not toxic gases

Years ago, The city’s fire chief that lives near me saw me outside and talked about these tanks, since he heard me talking about the tanks. It’s truck mounted but can be portable. When not in use it become a seat. There’s some short coming, Small length hose is the main. They also have the portable one for in house fire. It was new back then. I don’t know if they still in use today. I think someone mentioned, It’s cheaper with the portable tanks, than to refill the mounted tank.

I know about the suit you’re mentioning. It been awhile since I talk to my friend brother in law. I think he mentioned he uses a hazmat one piece suit over his fire fighter suit. I forgot, It been years since I spoke to him.

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Henk4U2 wrote:
Today the dangers that come from the ground are only appreciated in military vehicles. In the good old days one could buy an oil pan guard, after some effort. Today they are in NL only available from custom shops who specialize in rally and off-road cars. One might say that the roads have become much cleaner and safer, but people and cars are less prepared for what happens if something does go wrong.

I know Tesla is constantly focussing on efficacy and efficiency, to save weight and cost. The new “battery holder” is going to be part of the body shell on the underside of the vehicle. Thus making it even more vulnerable to debris on the road. That’s not a good strategy to handle things like these, if you (would) ask me.

Can Tesla underlay the battery holder with light weight but durable material? Just a example, Something like Kevlar. It’s lighter than steel.

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Venom wrote:
Can Tesla underlay the battery holder with light weight but durable material? Just a example, Something like Kevlar. It’s lighter than steel.
My thought exactly. A full-bottom skid plate would be helpful. But, Tesla thinks, how many of our cars will run over something that can puncture a cell? It would cut into the profit margin, too. So they don’t bother.

I wouldn’t mind a Mr. Fusion powering my SUV. Anybody remember “Back to the Future”? Cool

== We save the planet from darkness ==

Venom
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Rexlion wrote:
My thought exactly. A full-bottom skid plate would be helpful. But, Tesla thinks, how many of our cars will run over something that can puncture a cell? It would cut into the profit margin, too. So they don’t bother.

In this area, we have debris in the road all the time. It’s not hard to puncture the underlying if a Tesla.

I ran something over. It dented my floor pan. It was raining and visibility was a issue.

Garage seen damage Telsa batteries damage from hitting road debris, Customers wonder why their car doesn’t start.

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i’ve seen trailer hitches in the road that have backed out of an unsecured receiver—they will do some damage to low ground clearance vehicles

Now i used to think that i was cool,
drivin' around on fossil fuel,
until i saw what i was doin',
was drivin' down the road to ruin. --JT

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Pa. roads are like a war zone normally.

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Do not forget about rodents, they love wire insulation, it is like candy to them. there is a video on youtube how rodents got inside tesla battery. 

Venom
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kennybobby wrote:
i’ve seen trailer hitches in the road that have backed out of an unsecured receiver—they will do some damage to low ground clearance vehicles !https://www.practical-fishing-tips.com/images/boat-trailer-hitch-e.jpg!

Especially if you’re in a turn, and the front tire shoot the ball hitch right at the floor board. If it’s a Tesla, the ball hitch will be in the back seat.

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I’m willing to bet this was an older Tesla Model S without the steel basement protection plate.

My very own high current Beryllium Copper springs Gen 3:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/67401
Liitokala Aliexpress Stores Battery Fraud: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60547

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Rexlion wrote:
Venom wrote:
Can Tesla underlay the battery holder with light weight but durable material? Just a example, Something like Kevlar. It’s lighter than steel.
My thought exactly. A full-bottom skid plate would be helpful. But, Tesla thinks, how many of our cars will run over something that can puncture a cell? It would cut into the profit margin, too. So they don’t bother.

I wouldn’t mind a Mr. Fusion powering my SUV. Anybody remember “Back to the Future”? Cool

What about a proper fire suppression system built into these EV’s battery enclosures. Some racecars, I’ve seen it mostly in 200mph or higher dragsters, have had them for years. Yes it is used to put out a high octane or even nitro methane powered vehicles but, if the technology exist to put a highly advanced EV on the road then why can’t they make it safe from the fire even starting to begin with? Or at least the care be smart enough to sense when a fire has started and be able to put it out before millions of dollars worth of fire fighting equipment is called to the scene to put out a fire that they really can’t put out.

Damn things are too expensive as it is. Why not at least make them safe.

Technology to to a point where we got power steering, for easier and safer driving. We got anti lock brakes, for safer and quicker stopping. We got air bags that can inflate in fractions of a second to save our lives. Even the rubber tire has come such a long way in the last 60 years, keeping us safer on the road. Why in the hell are we risking our lives sitting on top of a battery with no way to stop it when it decides to go into runaway mode?

Just a thought, or two.

"Everywhere I go, there I am"

Venom
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toddcshoe wrote:
What about a proper fire suppression system built into these EV’s battery enclosures. Some racecars, I’ve seen it mostly in 200mph or higher dragsters, have had them for years. Yes it is used to put out a high octane or even nitro methane powered vehicles but, if the technology exist to put a highly advanced EV on the road then why can’t they make it safe from the fire even starting to begin with? Or at least the care be smart enough to sense when a fire has started and be able to put it out before millions of dollars worth of fire fighting equipment is called to the scene to put out a fire that they really can’t put out.

Damn things are too expensive as it is. Why not at least make them safe.

Technology to to a point where we got power steering, for easier and safer driving. We got anti lock brakes, for safer and quicker stopping. We got air bags that can inflate in fractions of a second to save our lives. Even the rubber tire has come such a long way in the last 60 years, keeping us safer on the road. Why in the hell are we risking our lives sitting on top of a battery with no way to stop it when it decides to go into runaway mode?

Just a thought, or two.

It’s not cost effective. The fire suppression system has to be expected. Expiration date on chemical.

There was an article I was reading about installing fire suppression system in EVs. The cons out way the pros. Times are different now. You never know.

I think adding something that will contain the fire and chemicals fumes in an accident is a better option. Especially if the driver is unconscious.

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BlueSwordM wrote:
I’m willing to bet this was an older Tesla Model S without the steel basement protection plate.

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What about salt used in the snow belt, I would image it can’t be good for these battery packs..

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