26650 Batteries

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Shadowww
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kramer5150 wrote:
Which one of these is the best in terms of internal resistance and current delivery capabilities?  That last one claims its capable of an 18A (!!!) draw... is that for real or a typo?  They measured 3794 mah capacity at 18A rate (!!) in the test below.
It's a IMR, even a 18650 one can do 20A easily:

So nope, not a typo.

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kramer:

I am not any kind of electronics expert like Don or Shadowww or many of the other experts on this forum. I am pretty anal about researching stuff to get an understanding before I use it. So I'm expressing my opinion here, peppered with a little research knowledge. Lithium-Manganese (IMR) and some of the newer chemistries have several advantages over conventional Li-ion (Lithium-Cobalt). They are safer in that they don't vent with flames and don't contain the same noxious and dangerous chemicals,  and they allow high current draw and are more tolerant of lower discharge than Li-Co. Because of this, you don't typically see protected versions. Check out AW's line of IMR and you will see all are unprotected.

So if it were me, I would do as you noted: Buy from one of the trusted U.S. sellers and buy IMR. That's what I intend to do in the future until the re-sellers and the battery makers start getting their shit together and provide us with more information. Or until we get some testing results from the most excellent BLF testers!

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Ok. There appears to be a couple of different King Kongs being sold by IO. Mine are ICR 26650 XSL. The ones on there website now are INR. Simply, are the ones I have safe or not? They are being used in a JM05. Google has not been much help and the more you read here the more confusing it gets.

For anyone that is interested they were supplied with a small magnet aproximately 1mm x 5mm to go between the batterys as the negative and positive would not make contact. I have read that some people have a concern that if the magnet slipped it could short out on the outer tube. I dont believe that this would cause a problem as the magnet is to small in diameter to be in contact with the positive part and the battery and the outer tube at the same time.

 

djozz quotes, "it came with chinese lettering that is chinese to me".

                      "My man mousehole needs one too"

old4570 said "I'm not an expert , so don't suffer from any such technical restrictions".

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benckie
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My 3 are INR26650E

N.Shock
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The KingKong ICR26650E are usual Li-Co cells:

http://www.kingcell.com.cn/en/ProductList.asp?SortID=41

This link shows the 18650 version, but this should be applicable to the 26650 cells too.

This is the cell i recently received from CNQ ordering the "Genuine 26650 3.7V 4000mah Li-on Battery". Their picture shows the INR26650E battery. I will contact Jo regarding this "issue".

 

The KingKong INR26650E are Li(NiCoMn)O2 cells. This is a better chemistry:

http://www.kingcell.com.cn/en/ProductList.asp?SortID=53

 

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N.Shock wrote:

The KingKong ICR26650E are usual Li-Co cells:

http://www.kingcell.com.cn/en/ProductList.asp?SortID=41

This link shows the 18650 version, but this should be applicable to the 26650 cells too.

This is the cell i recently received from CNQ ordering the "Genuine 26650 3.7V 4000mah Li-on Battery". Their picture shows the INR26650E battery. I will contact Jo regarding this "issue".

 The KingKong INR26650E are Li(NiCoMn)O2 cells. This is a better chemistry:

http://www.kingcell.com.cn/en/ProductList.asp?SortID=53

Thanks for researching for us. That confirms my suspicions as discussed up in post #9. I will make a note in the first post to reflect and send a note to Hank at IOS to get him to update his website. He should be selling them as different batteries, not randomly under one description.

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AWESOME investigative work on the King Kong.

 

Quick question...

The orange Powerizer-3600 is "LiNiCoMn", The blue Lighthound-3500 is "LiMnNiCo"

Are these two the same cell chemistry just described differently?  Furthermore are these two the same exact cell under a different shrink-wrap?

?????

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kramer:

All great questions, but I think somebody who actually passed a chemistry class is going to have to answer on the description order thing Smile. My assumption is that both of the ones you mention are collectively referred to as Lithium-Manganese Rechargeables (IMR), but I could be totally wrong. As to who makes the underlying cells, it's a mystery at this point. Sure wish Panasonic/Sanyo or whomever would get into the 26650 game....

Might be worth an email to Lighthound and Batteryspace to try and get some answers.

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BetweenRides wrote:

kramer:

All great questions, but I think somebody who actually passed a chemistry class is going to have to answer on the description order thing Smile. My assumption is that both of the ones you mention are collectively referred to as Lithium-Manganese Rechargeables (IMR), but I could be totally wrong. As to who makes the underlying cells, it's a mystery at this point. Sure wish Panasonic/Sanyo or whomever would get into the 26650 game....

Might be worth an email to Lighthound and Batteryspace to try and get some answers.

Panasonic is in the 26650 game for some time, but we have to understand that none of these companies care about flashlights.

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Hikelite wrote:

BetweenRides wrote:

kramer:

All great questions, but I think somebody who actually passed a chemistry class is going to have to answer on the description order thing Smile. My assumption is that both of the ones you mention are collectively referred to as Lithium-Manganese Rechargeables (IMR), but I could be totally wrong. As to who makes the underlying cells, it's a mystery at this point. Sure wish Panasonic/Sanyo or whomever would get into the 26650 game....

Might be worth an email to Lighthound and Batteryspace to try and get some answers.

Panasonic is in the 26650 game for some time, but we have to understand that none of these companies care about flashlights.

Don't care about flashlights? Blasphemy! Wink

I'm sure you are right. In my research I found several other apparent manufacturers of 26650 size cells, but they have different uses (such as ebs) and voltage ratings, like this one: http://www.a123systems.com/products-cells-26650-cylindrical-cell.htm

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Panasonic have 26650 for long time but only with 2650mAh, 4.2v to 2.5V. There a new version with 3300mAh, 4.2V to 3.0V.

 

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I uncovered a bunch of history behind 26650/700 size IMR (or LMR) cells from E-moli (or "emoli")... and their development for use in cordless power tools.  Most notably the Miluakee 28V line.  Some of that goes back to ~2007, so these cells have been out there for quite a while.

I could not uncover a raw-cell retailer for this manufacturer, or discharge curve graphs.  It appears most hobby-ists were harvesting cells from power tool packs... My head started to spin at that point!!!  Oi-yoy-yoy (for lack of a better word).

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MRsDNF wrote:

Ok. There appears to be a couple of different King Kongs being sold by IO. Mine are ICR 26650 XSL. The ones on there website now are INR. Simply, are the ones I have safe or not? They are being used in a JM05. Google has not been much help and the more you read here the more confusing it gets.

For anyone that is interested they were supplied with a small magnet aproximately 1mm x 5mm to go between the batterys as the negative and positive would not make contact. I have read that some people have a concern that if the magnet slipped it could short out on the outer tube. I dont believe that this would cause a problem as the magnet is to small in diameter to be in contact with the positive part and the battery and the outer tube at the same time.

To make it even more confusing!!!, the pictures on IOS now show ICR26650E (XSL). I swear yesterday the pictures were INR26650E. On top of that, The pictures on CQG now read INR26650E, but the ones I received from them were ICR26650E.

Lucy, you got some 'splainin to do....

Hank, if you are reading this thread like I suggested in my email to you, this needs to be sorted out. Us BLFers would like to know what exactly we are purchasing.

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N.Shock wrote:

The KingKong ICR26650E are usual Li-Co cells:

http://www.kingcell.com.cn/en/ProductList.asp?SortID=41

This link shows the 18650 version, but this should be applicable to the 26650 cells too.

This is the cell i recently received from CNQ ordering the "Genuine 26650 3.7V 4000mah Li-on Battery". Their picture shows the INR26650E battery. I will contact Jo regarding this "issue".

 

The KingKong INR26650E are Li(NiCoMn)O2 cells. This is a better chemistry:

http://www.kingcell.com.cn/en/ProductList.asp?SortID=53

 

The first ones I got from them where the INR's (the better kind), my next order they came as ICR's even though they listed them as INR's AND get this they raised the price of them by $1 each for a Worse battery. So now I have a mixture of both, which means I can't use them in series for other lights.Yell Vendors ought to learn about the products they actually Sell.....and to think I paid extra for the lesser quality batteries and can't even use them the way I intended to.

 

Fenix TK12, TK15, TK21-U2, TK61, TK75 Olight M20S, M21<span style="color: #0000ff;"

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picrthis wrote:

N.Shock wrote:

The KingKong ICR26650E are usual Li-Co cells:

http://www.kingcell.com.cn/en/ProductList.asp?SortID=41

This link shows the 18650 version, but this should be applicable to the 26650 cells too.

This is the cell i recently received from CNQ ordering the "Genuine 26650 3.7V 4000mah Li-on Battery". Their picture shows the INR26650E battery. I will contact Jo regarding this "issue".

 

The KingKong INR26650E are Li(NiCoMn)O2 cells. This is a better chemistry:

http://www.kingcell.com.cn/en/ProductList.asp?SortID=53

 

The first ones I got from them where the INR's (the better kind), my next order they came as ICR's even though they listed them as INR's AND get this they raised the price of them by $1 each for a Worse battery. So now I have a mixture of both, which means I can't use them in series for other lights.Yell Vendors ought to learn about the products they actually Sell.....and to think I paid extra for the lesser quality batteries and can't even use them the way I intended to.

 

The have been not proven worse that is a baseless assumption. Let's see the reviews.

But Yes the cell mixing in series is true, should be clear.

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BetweenRides typed.

"To make it even more confusing!!!, the pictures on IOS now show ICR26650E (XSL). I swear yesterday the pictures were INR26650E. On top of that, The pictures on CQG now read INR26650E, but the ones I received from them were ICR26650E.

Lucy, you got some 'splainin to do....

Hank, if you are reading this thread like I suggested in my email to you, this needs to be sorted out. Us BLFers would like to know what exactly we are purchasing."

 

Yes you are correct. They have again changed battery types overnight. (Well, overnight here). Tennis anyone.

 

djozz quotes, "it came with chinese lettering that is chinese to me".

                      "My man mousehole needs one too"

old4570 said "I'm not an expert , so don't suffer from any such technical restrictions".

Old-Lumens. Highly admired and cherished member of Budget Light Forum. 11.5.2011 - 20.12.16. RIP.

 

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nekdo12 wrote:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-KEYGOS-IMR-26650-3-7V-4800mAh-Lithium-Li-ion-...

Keygos IMR?

And some cheap cells

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2PCS-26650-3-7V-4800mAh-Li-ion-Rechargeable-Batt...

 

The desription on the second item makes interesting reading.

 


Color: Black
Length: 30cm/ 11.8; Width: 23cm/9" (see above picture)
Weight: 35g
Size: one size fit all

 

 

djozz quotes, "it came with chinese lettering that is chinese to me".

                      "My man mousehole needs one too"

old4570 said "I'm not an expert , so don't suffer from any such technical restrictions".

Old-Lumens. Highly admired and cherished member of Budget Light Forum. 11.5.2011 - 20.12.16. RIP.

 

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Don wrote:

Techjunkie wrote:

Don wrote:

Simple test. Get yourself a current shunt rated to around 50A off eBay - like this one

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/50A-75mV-Current-Shunt-AMP-Meter-Gauge-/150592...

Read the instructions and attach it to your multimeter as suggested.

Short the cell across it and read off the current. If it can't do 10A on a dead short (Should be nearer 45) it is crap. You might be able to read a value before the protection circuit (if any) cuts in.

 

Whatever you do, don't run this test for any longer than it takes to read the meter.

Really, really don't do this for more than a second.

I disclaim all responsibility for melted shunts/meters/hands/houses.

 

That's horrible advice.  Even if someone was willing to ruin a SAFE battery with a dead short, which would, permanently increase the cell's internal resistance, what if it was not a safe chem or protected cell?  LiCo cells DO vent flames and DO explode, and either/both can happen very quickly.  Big cells like 26650's pack A LOT of power - pipe bomb power.

That shunt is meant for measuring voltage drop across it under load as a means to measure the current going across it, not to dead-short a battery, power supply, etc.

 

If the cells can't do this for the ten or so milliseconds it will require to do the test the bin is the best place for them.

I think you misunderstood my point.  My concern was for the safety of the person conducting the experiment.  A dead short is the worst way to test even a "safe" chem cell.  Well, 2nd worst after forms of physical abuse like puncture, crush, incinerate.

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Hikelite wrote:

The have been not proven worse that is a baseless assumption. Let's see the reviews.

But Yes the cell mixing in series is true, should be clear.

Putting worse or better aside as a matter of opinion, or as a measure of technical specifications, the one thing that I can't stress enough here is the safety issue.  Plain and simple - LiCo chem cells are the loser by a landslide when it comes to safety.  For me, that's reason enough to avoid them.  Accidents happen, and if an accident happens to one of my lights, I want to be sure it doesn't have LiCo chem cells in it when it does.

Here's a thread worth at least skimming.  The accident happened with safe chem LiMn cells, 18650 in size, and the power of the explosion was still devastating.  The owner was very fortunate to not have been holding the light when it happened - he surely would have been mutilated if not killed.  Horrors aside, there's some great info buried within that thread, post #129 especially.

The takeaway for me is that among all the Li-Ion rechargeables, only LiFePO4 chem is safe from explosion and all Li chem cells that fail and vent will release extremely toxic poisonous gasses, "safe chem" varieties included.  That's scary enough.  Why any company even manufactures LiCo cells in 26650 size, with PCB or not, is beyond me.  I will never own one.  Re-reading that thread makes me want to reconsider all my IMR cells and convert everything to LiFePO4 or NiMH.

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Well, I'll be danged.

I'm in a couple of different discussions about this INR/ICR thing.  I noticed the different batteries right away on my second IO order.  I have 7 King Kongs; 4 INRs and 2 ICRs.  My first order included 3 INRs (free shipping with a third battery) and the second order included 2 INRs and 2 ICRs.  I have no idea how many times I mixed the two in my JM05 because I naturally assumed the ICRs were from a newer batch or something.  Now I discover they are entirely different chemistries?

IO now says, "The INR26650E have been discontinued" and  "The King Kong cells are now ICR26650E."  And, they're $9.47.  So, they've been replaced with an inferior chemistry?

Ahh well, I guess it's not that big a deal.  Would have been nice to know.  I bet Hank knew as much as we did . . . or as much as we used to know.  There's some pretty intelligent fellows around here.  I can't keep up with larnin' like ya'll got.

 

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Oh, you're worthy all right. Laughing

I responded to your post in "what you got today", but I referred you right back to here. Just be sure you don't mix the different chemistry cells in the same light and you should be good. I believe ICR is just a bigger version of your standard 18650 cell. What bothers me is the mixing and matching on the sellers websites. I want accurate descriptions and above all I want to know what I am buying - don't like the lottery approach to supply and demand.

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Techjunkie wrote:

Hikelite wrote:

The have been not proven worse that is a baseless assumption. Let's see the reviews.

But Yes the cell mixing in series is true, should be clear.

Putting worse or better aside as a matter of opinion, or as a measure of technical specifications, the one thing that I can't stress enough here is the safety issue.  Plain and simple - LiCo chem cells are the loser by a landslide when it comes to safety.  For me, that's reason enough to avoid them.  Accidents happen, and if an accident happens to one of my lights, I want to be sure it doesn't have LiCo chem cells in it when it does.

Here's a thread worth at least skimming.  The accident happened with safe chem LiMn cells, 18650 in size, and the power of the explosion was still devastating.  The owner was very fortunate to not have been holding the light when it happened - he surely would have been mutilated if not killed.  Horrors aside, there's some great info buried within that thread, post #129 especially.

The takeaway for me is that among all the Li-Ion rechargeables, only LiFePO4 chem is safe from explosion and all Li chem cells that fail and vent will release extremely toxic poisonous gasses, "safe chem" varieties included.  That's scary enough.  Why any company even manufactures LiCo cells in 26650 size, with PCB or not, is beyond me.  I will never own one.  Re-reading that thread makes me want to reconsider all my IMR cells and convert everything to LiFePO4 or NiMH.

Tech, thanks for posting that link. I've read through it before and have to point out that this situation is not your standard 1 cell light. The user bought a used multi-cell light with used batteries that were over-discharged and out of balance. I think we should all respect what we are using, but let's not get all alarmist about it either. Standard one-cell applications are still inherently safe, if you respect and treat your batteries safely (Don has a famous quote about seagulls and fish that should be referred to). On the other hand, I'm kind of agreeing with you about converting to safer chemistries in the future. We just need more options to choose from.

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nekdo12 wrote:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-KEYGOS-IMR-26650-3-7V-4800mAh-Lithium-Li-ion-...

Keygos IMR?

And some cheap cells

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2PCS-26650-3-7V-4800mAh-Li-ion-Rechargeable-Batt...

Hi, nekdo:

Sorry to have not responded sooner. I've been trying to do some research on these two cells and I'm not comfortable listing them as valid options. In general, unless you give an ebay seller a 'trusted' rating here on BLF, I would not recommend buying batteries from them. It is too easy to slap a label on anything and sell it, so at least with some of our known flashlight resellers, we have some manner of recourse (IOS has changed two listings after inquiry). As we are discovering with this ICR/INR/IMR saga, even that is no guarantee. To be honest, I almost didn't link the DX Trustfire versions in post #1 because of the reported fake 26650's they sell.

Some bad experiences over at CPF with Keygos and Palight 26650 batteries. They appear to be fakes. I can find no OEM sellers - only ebay. The IMR version you link to is IMR in the title of the listing only. The pictures of the cell mention nothing about IMR and the product description lists it as Li-ion. Also, IMR do not usually come with protection circuits. I doubt this ebay seller even knows what IMR is. The link to the second blue cells on ebay also has an inflated capacity and lists very few real specs. I would not trust these to be real new cells either, but if someone wants to be the guinea pig and test them, feel free.

Something to remember: the highest reported capacity of regular Li-ion(Cobalt) 26650 cells is 4000mAh. IMR and LiMnNiCo other variations do not have as high a capacity, so if someone is claiming 4000 - 5000mAh capacity for an IMR, they are not being truthful. I suspect this is one of the reasons IOS no longer carries the MNKE 4000mAh IMR and just yesterday removed the King Kong INR 4000mAh listing - when called on it, they can't support the claim. It should be noted that the ICR King Kong is a well-rated battery, however. My issue with them on this is the mix and match of two chemistries and non-disclosure in the product listing. To Hank's credit at IOS, he will fix anything in error that is pointed out to him and do it very quickly.

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djozz quotes, "it came with chinese lettering that is chinese to me".

                      "My man mousehole needs one too"

old4570 said "I'm not an expert , so don't suffer from any such technical restrictions".

Old-Lumens. Highly admired and cherished member of Budget Light Forum. 11.5.2011 - 20.12.16. RIP.

 

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"To Hank's credit at IOS, he will fix anything in error that is pointed out to him and do it very quickly."

 

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kramer5150 wrote:

AWESOME investigative work on the King Kong.

 

Quick question...

The orange Powerizer-3600 is "LiNiCoMn", The blue Lighthound-3500 is "LiMnNiCo"

Are these two the same cell chemistry just described differently?  Furthermore are these two the same exact cell under a different shrink-wrap?

?????

Your question has been bugging me, kramer; I finally found an answer:

"Lithium (NCM) Nickel Cobalt Manganese - Li(NiCoMn)O2

Tri-element cells which combine slighlty improved safety (better than Cobalt oxide) with lower cost without compromising the energy density but with slightly lower voltage. Different manufacturers may use different proportions of the three constituent elements, in this case Ni, Co and Mn."

 ~ So, much like ingredients on packaged food, different proportions could mean a re-ordering of the constituent elements.  The above from Electropaedia - Battery and Energy Technologies.

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KingKong ICR26650E XSL discharge test:

1A down to 2.8V:

4358mAh

 

3A down to 2.8V:

4240mAh

5A down to 2.8V:

4139mAh

It looks like it only discharged down to 3 V, but the cutoff value was set to 2.8V. This is caused by the fast dropping voltage from 3V to 2.8V.

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