26650 Batteries

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MRsDNF
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There looking good.

 

djozz quotes, "it came with chinese lettering that is chinese to me".

                      "My man mousehole needs one too"

old4570 said "I'm not an expert , so don't suffer from any such technical restrictions".

Old-Lumens. Highly admired and cherished member of Budget Light Forum. 11.5.2011 - 20.12.16. RIP.

 

Techjunkie
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BetweenRides wrote:

Tech, thanks for posting that link. I've read through it before and have to point out that this situation is not your standard 1 cell light. The user bought a used multi-cell light with used batteries that were over-discharged and out of balance. I think we should all respect what we are using, but let's not get all alarmist about it either. Standard one-cell applications are still inherently safe, if you respect and treat your batteries safely...

No arguments there.  I just felt compelled to remind people here, especially those accepting/dispensing advice about dead shorting batteries to see how much load they can handle, about how dangerous even the safe chem cells are, let alone LiCo chem cells. [/End PSA]

BetweenRides
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Thanks, N.Shock. Discharge test noted in OP.

kramer5150
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BetweenRides wrote:

kramer5150 wrote:

AWESOME investigative work on the King Kong.

 

Quick question...

The orange Powerizer-3600 is "LiNiCoMn", The blue Lighthound-3500 is "LiMnNiCo"

Are these two the same cell chemistry just described differently?  Furthermore are these two the same exact cell under a different shrink-wrap?

?????

Your question has been bugging me, kramer; I finally found an answer:

"Lithium (NCM) Nickel Cobalt Manganese - Li(NiCoMn)O2

Tri-element cells which combine slighlty improved safety (better than Cobalt oxide) with lower cost without compromising the energy density but with slightly lower voltage. Different manufacturers may use different proportions of the three constituent elements, in this case Ni, Co and Mn."

 ~ So, much like ingredients on packaged food, different proportions could mean a re-ordering of the constituent elements.  The above from Electropaedia - Battery and Energy Technologies.

 

SOLID!! thanks for doing that.

I am leaning towards the 3600 powerizer cells.

BetweenRides
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Heard back from Ric at CN Quality Goods - updated OP to change description for King Kong 4000mAh cells.

Kris2
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I have one question: in 1 post we have information about cells 4sevens are ".. non protected"
Here my old (blue) and new (green) cells:

And now - on label is visible "with PCB", as well visible under isolation the belts of flat wire.
Doesn't this mark that however these cells are "Protected" ?

Shadowww
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They 100% are protected, I have the green-wrapper one and I had overdischarge protection kick in few times on it.

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Shadowww wrote:

They 100% are protected, I have the green-wrapper one and I had overdischarge protection kick in few times on it.

Good catch, kris2 and Shadowww - 4sevens 26650 cells are now listed under the Protected section in the OP.  Funny that 4 Sevens doesn't note this in their product description.

Edit: I contact 4sevens and they have updated the product description to note it is a protected-cell battery.

kramer5150
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Just a little update... I placed an order for 3x Battery space 3600 LiNiCoMn cells this weekend.

I'm only pushing them at ~1.38C in my ultrafire HD2010, so it should be a cake walk for these cells and I'm well within their capable range.  I think I'm sticking with the 1x26650 setups, thats about as big as I can comfortably carry.  No knock against BIG lights, I'm just not getting any younger, so weight and space are something I need to consider on the trails.  They're  At $9.50 from a reputable USA source it seems like a safe bet.

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I think that's a smart choice, kramer. Please post impressions when you have a chance to test them out.

kramer5150
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Sure... I can't do any detailed analysis, just tail cap current measurement comparisons and a 1A discharge capacity test with my hobby charger.

picrthis
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I just went to purchase some of them too, until I found out they want $9.95 for shipping.............yea I can't justify that shipping cost.

Fenix TK12, TK15, TK21-U2, TK61, TK75 Olight M20S, M21<span style="color: #0000ff;"

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picrthis wrote:

I just went to purchase some of them too, until I found out they want $9.95 for shipping.............yea I can't justify that shipping cost.

Yeah, you can't beat the free shipping from many of the other www retailers.  So thats a major bummer.  Battery space is about 35 minutes from my home, and still it was $7.50 for S&H... and I chose the cheapest shipping method via USPS (!!)  I would just drive there to buy them in store if I didn't have to pay $6 bridge toll to cross over the SF bay.

sigh... anyways, I'll post an update to this thread when I get them and cycle them a couple times.

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So, I am getting a Shadow JM07 Pro from a member here. I will probably be modifying the driver or have it modified to hopefully drive the XM-L at ~3.5A. I am wondering what people have found to be a good 26650, the Manafont Protected TrustFire sounds good with it giving >4000 mAh, and a good price. What I am wondering is if I really need a protected cell or if a King Kong or other would work fine since the JM07 also has undervoltage protection. I would also be using an Xtar WPII Mk2 to charge it so I have a good charger for it. Other thought is the 4sevens 26650 since it is protected and from a reputable source it should be of good quality. Any other suggestions, advice and help is appreciated.

BetweenRides
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Try Lighthound. Not much, but if you are also a CPF member, 2% off. 4 sevens is a quality cell, just overpriced.

If it helps, I have a JM07 and use the King Kong and WP2 II charger. I think it's fine as it has current regulation, low voltage warning and stepdown plus reverse polarity protection.

kramer5150
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bose301s wrote:

So, I am getting a Shadow JM07 Pro from a member here. I will probably be modifying the driver or have it modified to hopefully drive the XM-L at ~3.5A. I am wondering what people have found to be a good 26650, the Manafont Protected TrustFire sounds good with it giving >4000 mAh, and a good price. What I am wondering is if I really need a protected cell or if a King Kong or other would work fine since the JM07 also has undervoltage protection. I would also be using an Xtar WPII Mk2 to charge it so I have a good charger for it. Other thought is the 4sevens 26650 since it is protected and from a reputable source it should be of good quality. Any other suggestions, advice and help is appreciated.

Personally I prefer unprotected cells in single cell lights.  I have had more problems with protection circuits than they are worth.  Like dropping them and fracturing the PCBA, pressing against them too hard and messing them up in some ill-fated DIY builds or discharging them only to have them not bounce back.  I also dont really like how the circuit board presents a sharp edge / corner to the shrink-wrap.  I have always found this to be a weak point that can easily tear.

I just make sure I dont over-discharge the cells, and I pack carry enough backups so I dont ever feel the need to deep cycle the unprotected cell.

IMHO of course...

I think you have to evaluate the kind of user you are.  If you just want to run the light till' it dims and not worry about it, then definitely you will benefit from a protected cell.  Also, my understanding is that the protection circuit is only designed to be a last resort fail-safe.  They are NOT designed to repeatedly deep-cycle and trip the circuit.

viktori
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Here is the "official" site for Keygos 26650:

http://www.keygos.com/product_info.php?products_id=938

 

I'd really love to see some tests of those. I know people here on BLF reported they are as good as KK. Some graph/numbers about these would really be nice to see.

 

Viktor

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BetweenRides
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viktori wrote:

Here is the "official" site for Keygos 26650:

http://www.keygos.com/product_info.php?products_id=938

 

I'd really love to see some tests of those. I know people here on BLF reported they are as good as KK. Some graph/numbers about these would really be nice to see.

 Viktor

Thanks for finding that link, Viktor. I'll refer you back to post# 55: Keygos lists this as IMR, yet describes it as Li-ion. IMR usually denotes Lithium-Manganese. By all accounts there are no Lithium-Manganese or LiMnNiCo batteries available with capacity over 4000mAh, so I still question the honesty of their claims, but that could be said of Trustfires sold by most vendors. In addition, they claim to have protection circuit, usually not a feature of IMR batteries. I will include them in the Protected section of the OP, with my usual Wink denoting 'exaggerated' capacity.

Dave

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There is definitely plenty of false advertising about these, but if they were regular Li-Ions with 4000mAh (measured) they would be the cheapest decent 26650 Li-Ions available at the moment.

What this forum is about, innit? Smile

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BetweenRides
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Truedat. I agree it would be nice to see a test of real capacity.

ABitDark
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Great info !

bose301s
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Probably going to pick up the Keygos pair or the Trustfire protected cells, just the safest way to go.

BetweenRides
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bose301s wrote:

Probably going to pick up the Keygos pair or the Trustfire protected cells, just the safest way to go.

It will be good to hear your impressions. Just remember on safety: An untested 'protected' Lithium-ion (Cobalt) cell is not safer than a Lithium-Manganese or one of the other newer chemistries. My feeling on exaggerated capacity is if a company will blatantly lie about capacity, should we trust that the cells under the shiny wrapper are new (not used) and that the protection circuit actually functions? More and more I am finding reasons to mistrust the XXXFire brands being thrown out everywhere.

Sorry, I'll get off the soap box now.

brted
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Has anyone gotten Moli batteries yet? A Canadian company, apparently. You can get green wrapper IMR 26650's for $9 on eBay. They say "MADE IN CANADA" but ship from Hong Kong. If they are real, Moli's are used in tool power packs. There was a guy at CPF that bought a box of them and sold out in no time. I don't know what his source was.

WARNING: These are advertised as 3V batteries (22650A) and maybe LiFePO instead of true IMR batteries:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOLI-IMR-26650A-26650-3V-Li-ion-Lithium-Rechargeable-Battery-70035-141003-1pc?item=120831809394

These seems to be the IMR batteries (3.7V and advertised a 26650C), 2 for $13 (but stock could be 10 years old):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-pcs-Genuine-MOLI-IMR-26650C-26650-3-7V-Li-ion-Rechargeable-Battery-/130668095853

bose301s
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I ordered the Keygos pair, we'll see how long they take to get here and if they're any good.

Techjunkie
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brted wrote:

Has anyone gotten Moli batteries yet? A Canadian company, apparently. You can get green wrapper IMR 26650's for $9 on eBay. They say "MADE IN CANADA" but ship from Hong Kong. If they are real, Moli's are used in tool power packs. There was a guy at CPF that bought a box of them and sold out in no time. I don't know what his source was.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOLI-IMR-26650A-26650-3V-Li-ion-Lithium-Recharge...

 

The ones you have linked to are advertised as 3V, not 3.7V, and verified as such by inquiry to the seller.  Presumably, those are LiFePO4 variety - not good for a single cell light unless you have a boost circuit to step-up the voltage..  That aside, I did purchase some 3.7V Moli 26650 cells from an eBay seller (fdk-cn), and they were verified via email exchange by Moli as genuine (excerpt from email exchange below).

Moli has manufacturing facilities in China and likely sold these cells to other companies for assembly into packs shortly after the cells were manufactured back in 2002.  These cells appear to have never been used and are now being sold as loose cells by the third party without cooperation from Moli.  About the cells, despite being 10 years old, my first three work great, and I have 6 more on the way.  I have not verified the full 3.3AH capacity (the seller incorrectly underestimates capacity as 2800mAH), but can say that even ~half way into the cell's discharge, it still drives a 4.2A regulated single XM-L light to the fullest.

Here's an extract from the email I exchanged with someone from Moli about these cells.  The blue text is from the person at E-One Moli and the black text is mine.

 


 

Mr.[masked] ,

Those are indeed MOLICEL's built in Canada, on May 30th of 2002.

The labeling on those cells are consistant with other cells from that era.

They do indeed look new and unused and show no indications of ever being put into a pack.
 
They may have been overstock that was sold by our customer to a third party who is now selling them on ebay.

From a visual inspection of the cells, they appear to be spinel cells made in Canada.

The original capacity was 3.3Ah.

Best regards,

[masked].

 -----Original Message-----

From: [masked]
Sent: March 23, 2012 1:10 PM
To:
[masked]
Subject: Re: counterfeit Moli cells on eBay?

Mr. [masked],

Thank you so much for your reply.  I am pleased to learn that you are aware that Moli cells are being sold loose on eBay and taking action in the interest of public safety.

Attached are photos of the cells that I've received.  As you can see, the heatshrink on the cell and the cans both look new and unused, despite the cell being an older model (2008?).  I also noticed that in pics of a similar model cell, IMR-26700A, there is a . between FSPE and 7 (FSPE.7xxxx), whereas on my IMR-26650C, there is no . (FSPE70038).  Not a concern?

Thank you for taking the time to examine these photos.

Kind regards,

[masked]


From: [masked]
To:
[masked]
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 3:17 PM
Subject: RE: counterfeit Moli cells on eBay?

 Good day Mr. [masked],


Thank you for your valid concerns with respect to MOLICEL brand products showing up on EBay.

E-One Moli Energy Corp. is aware of the issues and is actively looking into how and when these products ended up for sale on online auction sites.

Many of the cells that we see on these sites are legitimate products and not counterfeit but are not being sold with our authorization.

Many of these cells are over ten years old and may have changed hands several times in that period as our records stop at the companies that we sold them to initially.

We have found that some of the cells advertised online are cells that have been recovered from recycled battery packs and yet others are 'new' cells that were never used by the companies that had purchased them and since then have been sold as scrap or liquidated when those companies folded.

If you would send me a photo of the label of the cells you have purchased, I can verify the lot ID printed on it to see what the cell actually is.  With regards to the chemistry, E-One Moli Energy never produced and 26650 size cells using the LiCo chemistry.

For your general information, we have also found that some of the 'high energy' cells for sale on sites like ebay are also old cells that have been repackaged as new.  We found a 5000mAh cell was actually a 1300mAh repackaged cell, they did not even take our label off, they just put another label over top of it.  We have found this to be the case with every other major manufacturers cells ending up relabeled and resold as 'new' on ebay.

This is a problem that is being discussed at the highest levels of our corporation and also all other manufacturers and also governments and regulatory bodies.

At this point there is very little that we can do as sites like Ebay only let users post information, they do not actually control or vet the vendors and their wares.

We are approaching the problem from the point of the freight and air carriers and making the point that it is their responsibility to make sure that all Lithium-Ion cells that are offered for transport have the proper regulatory certificates in place.

Thank you again for your concerns, please be assured that we are working on the problems.

Best regards,

[masked]
 
Inside Sales, E-One Moli Energy (Canada) Ltd.
20,000 Stewart Crescent, Maple Ridge, B.C. Canada, V2X 9E7
Ph:[masked]  Fx:[masked]

-----Original Message-----
From: [masked]
Sent: March 22, 2012 7:28 PM
To: molicel
Subject: counterfeit Moli cells on eBay?

I'm seeing a LOT of Moli IMR-26650C cells for sale from China on eBay.  Is E-One Moli aware of any counterfeiting going on, or is there a likely explanation for how your older model cells are ending up for sale on eBay looking brand new?
 
I have purchased three out of curiosity, but have no way to verify that the the cells that I received are genuine or not.  Is there a non-destructive way to verify the chemical composition of the cells that I have received?  My main concern is that they might be cells of the more volatile LiCo chemistry masquerading as cells of the safer LiMnO2 chemistry.
 
E-One Moli should contact eBay about any counterfeiting activity, especially if the safety of the consumer is at risk.
 

Shadowww
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You have a.. 10 years old cells that work great?

I've heard from some sources that Li-Ion's lose half of their capacity in just 3 years. So I guess this doesn't applies to LiMn kind, only the LiCo one then?

kramer5150
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Shadowww wrote:

You have a.. 10 years old cells that work great?

I've heard from some sources that Li-Ion's lose half of their capacity in just 3 years. So I guess this doesn't applies to LiMn kind, only the LiCo one then?

I thought about those emoli cells on ebay, then the other BLF'er PM'd me with that very useful information from emoli.  I think 10 years is just too old for me to chance... maybe some day I might take a gamble.  But not right now.

Funny you mentioned this because I am retiring some 26650 cells I bought in NOV 2009.  They self discharge very fast, and are down to about 1/3 their original storage capacity.  So I think these have seen their day.  Looking back, they never really held a charge the way a healthy Lithium-based cell chemistry should at / above ~4.15V.  (Panasonic CGR18650 cells are my baseline for comparison, and will remain pegged at ~4.15V for several months at least).  So I think these 26650s had a high internal resistance from day-1, it was masked partially by my moderate current draw applications.

Looking back at my Battery space order history these old cells were described as:

LiMnNi Rechargeable 26650 Cell: 3.7V 4000 mAh, 10A rated 14.8Wh

Just ran a 1A discharge test 5 minutes ago.... barely 1300mah from 4.2-3.15V at 1A, so these are ready for the recycle bin.

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I've got the same BatterySpace 4AH IMR 26650.  I barely used it, never deep cycled it, and only charged it ~4 times.  I can honestly say that in direct comparison to that cell, the 10 yr. old Moli cells outperform it, driving my single cell lights to a higher current when half spent than it can on a full charge.  I think the saving grace of the Moli cells is that they are truly high quality cells, made by arguably the best (or one of the best two) power tool LiMn cell manufacturer( s ), were never used at all, and were stored properly.  Cheap cells degrade on their own over time much faster than quality cells.  In my mind, I'd rather have 10 yr old Molis in mint condition than brand new TrustFires any day.  At $6 each, I think I gambled and one.  I just hope the next six are the same as the first three.

kramer5150
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Techjunkie wrote:

I've got the same BatterySpace 4AH IMR 26650.  I barely used it, never deep cycled it, and only charged it ~4 times.  I can honestly say that in direct comparison to that cell, the 10 yr. old Moli cells outperform it, driving my single cell lights to a higher current when half spent than it can on a full charge.  I think the saving grace of the Moli cells is that they are truly high quality cells, made by arguably the best (or one of the best two) power tool LiMn cell manufacturer( s ), were never used at all, and were stored properly.  Cheap cells degrade on their own over time much faster than quality cells.  In my mind, I'd rather have 10 yr old Molis in mint condition than brand new TrustFires any day.  At $6 each, I think I gambled and one.  I just hope the next six are the same as the first three.

Me too, although I topped them off much more than that.  I used them very carefully knowing I paid $15 each.  I was never really impressed with these 26650 cells.  Capacity was originally in the ~3900mah ball park so they did OK in that regard... but that was the only thing they did well.  Current delivery was so-so, and self-discharge characteristics were terrible.  I hope these newer ones are better.  We'll see.  So I am looking forward to your impressions too on your latest moli batch.  I haven't ruled them out completely yet either, and the lighthound cell is still on my radar.

Yeah I agree... an older high quality cell can easily out-perform a new low quality one.  Thats why this thread is so important for those of us into the larger 26650 size.  Theres just not much real data out there (as compared to 18650).

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