2*AA side-by-side aluminum flashlight - DCF01 by Sofirn (Formerly: Resurrection of Duracell Durabeam)

bmengineer · 2019-06-19T15:32:01.000Z

I don’t see any reason not to use buttons. I understand that you want to make this light stand out from the crowd, but going against too many conventions at once is a great way to add complexity,create issues, and alienate any potential buyers.

Lightbringer · 2019-06-19T18:41:41.000Z

Hey, buttons are great, and can be made perfectly waterproof (see the Sofirn/Wurkkos SD05 diving light).

Problem is, ask 20 people here for opinions as to the greatest’n’bestest UI to use for ’em, and you’ll get 38 different answers.

So then you get some frankenUI grab-bag of options from the mfr that everyone hates.

hank · 2019-06-19T18:44:24.000Z

greatest’n‘bestest UI

Make it with contact pads for Pogo-Whatsis flash connections and sell a modders’ kit for UI changes.

rost333 · 2019-06-20T10:51:27.000Z

Would it be possible? How much would it cost?
Maybe Sofirn could stand out from the crowd by allowing users to customize the UI in most of their lights?
Those are questions to Sofirn.

Ideally I see a PC program and USB-pogo cable set.
User is turning on the program, connects the flashlight and is able to choose the number of lumens on each brightness level and number of levels.

I’m lacking needed skills but maybe there is a good soul on this forum that could help create such a program and Sofirn could deliver the rest?

ZozzV6 · 2019-06-20T11:14:30.000Z

rost333:

Would it be possible? How much would it cost?
Maybe Sofirn could stand out from the crowd by allowing users to customize the UI in most of their lights?
Those are questions to Sofirn.

Ideally I see a PC program and USB-pogo cable set.
User is turning on the program, connects the flashlight and is able to choose the number of lumens on each brightness level and number of levels.

I’m lacking needed skills but maybe there is a good soul on this forum that could help create such a program and Sofirn could deliver the rest?

Or add a bluetooth IC and make IOS and Android downloadable app to config the light. You make more than 10 clicks to activate bluetooth. You set mode order and levels and save.
Also you can assign long, short, double, triple, quad clicks to functions.
Then you can use the light.

djozz · 2019-06-21T14:23:49.000Z

Then you can use the light

…if the apocalypse zombies did not get you before all that :cowboy_hat_face:

rost333 · 2019-06-20T18:35:56.000Z

No worries Jos

ZozzV6:

Or add a bluetooth IC and make IOS and Android downloadable app to config the light.

It would be great but it depends on Sofirn ability to implement this while keeping low price.

I was thinking about something like Nextorch:

TorchLAB BOSS solution would be probably too costly:

lux-rc.com

Lux-RC Labs - NXS - NXS Designer - Create New

We design and manufacture custom flashlights and unique lighting fixtures for demanding customers and applications

Lightbringer · 2019-06-20T19:31:11.000Z

ZozzV6:

Or add a bluetooth IC and make IOS and Android downloadable app to config the light.

Hm? How’s a BT signal supposed to get in/out of a Faraday-cage of an all-aluminum flashlight?

Scallywag · 2019-06-20T20:32:43.000Z

Lightbringer:

ZozzV6:

Or add a bluetooth IC and make IOS and Android downloadable app to config the light.

Hm? How’s a BT signal supposed to get in/out of a Faraday-cage of an all-aluminum flashlight?

Same way the iPad does: Go out through the bezel around the screen!

What's that you say? You don't have a flashlight with a retina screen? What about a $999 flashlight stand?

I'm sorry I'll go stand in my corner

Lightbringer · 2019-06-20T22:54:08.000Z

Mmmmmm, no.

Figure the tube is all Al. The reflector is likely Al as well, only thing left is the tailcap if any, and dunno how small a BT antenna can be made, and it’d play Hell with reliability anyway as well as need a coaxial tube like the FW3A to pass the signal along.

ZozzV6 · 2019-06-21T04:17:50.000Z

Lightbringer:

ZozzV6:

Or add a bluetooth IC and make IOS and Android downloadable app to config the light.

Hm? How’s a BT signal supposed to get in/out of a Faraday-cage of an all-aluminum flashlight?

Like an USB cover it can have a BT antenna molded in a plastic piece what glued in the side of the head or under the button.

I also like Lupine headlamps setup application.

rost333 · 2019-06-22T09:43:03.000Z

ZozzV6:

I also like Lupine headlamps setup application.

Yes, nice one.

Barry0892 · 2019-06-24T05:38:14.000Z

1stein:

Quite sure the more people involves, the more options we’ll get. But let’s take a wider look.
Assuming the Authors aim in creating an over - time classic, widely accessible and for many applications. Shouldn’t we think of ‘the market’? I don’t think (with all due respect) BLFers are a representative group. We’re all crazy about flashlights. To make it right, the Authors should ask a question, who is the potential customer. Let’s say it’ll be very lucky at BLF and sells in number of 1000. And then what? Mugles who bought are likely to return due to too complicated UI.
Why not to use advanced processor and program it (flash the bios) just before sending? The same way we choose led temp. or ref type, we could choose software. Like at MTN. This way the light could reach more people, be more flexible and satisfy each group. Moreover, modding this light could be extended by multiple software versions.
Anyway, I think the success of this light depends on its sales. BLF won’t bring more than 1000? But if it becames common at gas stations… BOOM,millions….
So… The software could be developed, best if market research could prove which exactly functions are desired most by a regular buyer. Who that buyer is (statistics on many factors) etc…

A programmable driver is cool. The default UI is for muggles and if Flasholics want it with customized UI, sofirn can program it before shipping. Or you program it yourself.
But I don’t know how to fulfill it and how difficult it will be.

Barry0892 · 2019-06-24T05:42:15.000Z

tterev3:

I have a feeling that my flashlight UI designs aren’t very well aligned with the popular opinion, but Artur asked me to weigh in so here’s my input. This interface setup is what MELD uses in lights with dual switches:

The only difference between the two switches should be that one is for UP and one is for DOWN. Any user input that could have directionality will follow the UP/DOWN designation of the switch that is being used. For any other user input, both buttons should function exactly the same.

For example, here’s a simple ramping UI with dual switches that follows this philosophy:
Click either button to turn on. Click either button to turn off. Press and hold either button from off for momentary usage. While on, hold down either button to ramp; UP button goes up, DOWN button goes down. Double click UP switch shortcuts to max; double click DOWN switch shortcuts to min.
This can be extended to further functions with extended commands (triple click, click-click-press, press both simultaneously, etc.). In any case, a command that doesn’t have any up/down association (on/off, battery check, options menu, etc.) doesn’t matter which switch is used, they both act the same. Any command that does have an up/down association (ramping, shortcuts to high or low, advance through menu options, etc.) will choose the direction based on which button is pressed.

1stein · 2019-06-24T05:51:01.000Z

Barry0892:

1stein:

Quite sure the more people involves, the more options we’ll get. But let’s take a wider look.
Assuming the Authors aim in creating an over - time classic, widely accessible and for many applications. Shouldn’t we think of ‘the market’? I don’t think (with all due respect) BLFers are a representative group. We’re all crazy about flashlights. To make it right, the Authors should ask a question, who is the potential customer. Let’s say it’ll be very lucky at BLF and sells in number of 1000. And then what? Mugles who bought are likely to return due to too complicated UI.
Why not to use advanced processor and program it (flash the bios) just before sending? The same way we choose led temp. or ref type, we could choose software. Like at MTN. This way the light could reach more people, be more flexible and satisfy each group. Moreover, modding this light could be extended by multiple software versions.
Anyway, I think the success of this light depends on its sales. BLF won’t bring more than 1000? But if it becames common at gas stations… BOOM,millions….
So… The software could be developed, best if market research could prove which exactly functions are desired most by a regular buyer. Who that buyer is (statistics on many factors) etc…

A programmable driver is cool. The default UI is for muggles and if Flasholics want it with customized UI, sofirn can program it before shipping. Or you program it yourself.
But I don’t know how to fulfill it and how difficult it will be.

Sounds great to me. Multiple software versions are possible to cope with. MTN-Electonics’ solution is just picking the version from a roll list together with other drivers’ options.
I’ve read in this thread many good ideas for UI. Having such choice would be just awesome. Furthermore the time and money invested could also benefit to other models based on the same CPU.

Barry0892 · 2019-06-24T06:14:26.000Z

hank:

Remember, you’re talking about something intended to be assembled chabuduo by Chinese workers from cheapest-source part suppliers.

If you are German or Northern European in general, you are likely used to things being done according to specifications and high standards. You probably wouldn’t expect less than 100. As an American, you are may be used to a little more wiggle room. Not everything is quite as perfect, for example with regard to workmanship, but still very good, like 90-95.

Not so in China. In China, the typical approach is summed up in one word: “chabuduo”, meaning “nearly” or “almost”. For most Chinese it also means “good enough”. You will hear this term a lot.

KISS. You need this to be far simpler and more robust than you want to imagine, to take up the slack.

Many Chinese have “chabuduo” thoery in mind but more in low end manufactuering. But more and more Chinese companies can do as well as world’s leading companies like DJI and Huawei. Even Fenix and Nitecore are Chinese companies.

Why MADE IN CHINA still means cheap and low quality for you guys?

Firstly, I wanna say, you got what you pay for.

Secondly, as far as I know, most small factories don’t have real quality control which needs a complex system and factories need to learn for years or decades. The little profit small Chinese factories made can NOT pay for a complex quality control system.

The process is Low price-Low profits-No money to improve-stuck in Low end manufactuering-bankrupt when orders transferred to other countries with lower cost. Factory try to improve - pay more to upgrade system and team- higher price don’t get sales- bankcrupt.

It’s really hard to change a consumers’ existed minds. But that is business. China is trying to climbing to a new level of manufacturing. I hope sofirn is one of them who succeed in several years.

Lightbringer · 2019-06-24T07:06:44.000Z

It’s exactly as you say: you get what you pay for.

But people found errors in manufacturing that could be really bad for the light. Missing O-rings (let in water), LEDs not secured to the shelf/pill (little thermal contact, so overheats and destroys the LED), and so on.

I think the difference which irks people is what’s done about it. Here in the States, something like a flashlight with an easy-to-spot defect, the buyer expects the seller to make good on it. Amazon rose to a huge size because of its “a to z” warranty. People know that if what they get is broken, or doesn’t match the picture or description, they can return it no-questions-asked and that’s done.

Unfortunately, the way most big sellers (BG, GB, KD, etc.) “settle” things is to just frustrate and anger the buyer hoping he goes away. Send back the item at your expense (more than the light costs!) for a replacement… maybe. If they don’t receive it, neither will you get the replacement, which could be just as broken. All it would take is to send a replacement O-ring, driver, etc., and let the person fix it himself, but in general, those sellers don’t.

That business model is “good enough”. “If you buy 20 things and 19 work, what are you complaining about?” That would never work over here.

That’s why Sofirn, Convoy, and some other sellers are near’n’dear to BLF, because all someone needs to do is ask Tracy or Simon for a replacement, and it’s sent.

I even think it was you when you were back at Thorfire, that my TK05 went boom, and you sent a 99%-off code on Amazon for a replacement. Sure, I had to send a video to show what was the problem, but that was nothing. Things happen, and even if they do, it’s nice to have a company stand behind the product.

So, yeah, it’s a cultural thing. When something goes wrong, even if 1-in-20 products goes bad because of little if any quality-control, that’s not a problem IF the company makes good. The Amazon approach is, sure, we’ll send a replacement, refund what you paid, anything’n’everything, just to make you happy. And that’s what people expect here.

But, and you have to admit it based on how some (most?) sellers behave, being frustrated into going away won’t work when something does go bad. That’s what people complain about. Mega big business ships a broken light, and you the little guy have to eat the cost. Or, that’s what they want, until you threaten to tell PayPal, etc.

See this thread: I bought a Chinese Motorcycle :) .

Riding a motorcycle that can lock up a wheel and kill you is not something you want to accept. Missing spacer, cracked bracket, things like that should have to be checked, but they’re not. “Good enough” doesn’t apply to safety. Yet it’s things like that which reinforce the “cheap junk” stereotype, sadly.

rost333 · 2019-06-24T12:28:17.000Z

My answer to Barry: Poka-yoke

Benefits of poka-yoke implementation

A typical feature of poka-yoke solutions is that they don’t let an error in a process happen.
But that is just one of their advantages. Others include:

- Less time spent on training workers;

- Elimination of many operations related to quality control;

- Unburdening of operators from repetitive operations;

- Promotion of the work improvement-oriented approach and actions;

- A reduced number of rejects;

- Immediate action when a problem occurs;

100% built-in quality control.

Scallywag · 2019-06-24T13:13:52.000Z

Barry0892:

Many Chinese have “chabuduo” thoery in mind but more in low end manufactuering. But more and more Chinese companies can do as well as world’s leading companies like DJI and Huawei. Even Fenix and Nitecore are Chinese companies. Why MADE IN CHINA still means cheap and low quality for you guys? Firstly, I wanna say, you got what you pay for. Secondly, as far as I know, most small factories don’t have real quality control which needs a complex system and factories need to learn for years or decades. The little profit small Chinese factories made can NOT pay for a complex quality control system. The process is Low price-Low profits-No money to improve-stuck in Low end manufactuering-bankrupt when orders transferred to other countries with lower cost. Factory try to improve - pay more to upgrade system and team- higher price don’t get sales- bankcrupt. It’s really hard to change a consumers’ existed minds. But that is business. China is trying to climbing to a new level of manufacturing. I hope sofirn is one of them who succeed in several years.

Thank you Barry. There are a lot of social, cultural, economic, and political factors at play. I understand some of it well and some of it less well, but we do notice that Sofirn sets itself apart from what I would refer to as "cheap Chinese crap". Sofirn is making an effort, and despite all the challenges involved is doing a good job. There are even language barriers involved in BLF getting things how they want, and Sofirn does a good job. I'm not going to say Sofirn gets it perfect every time, but you're trying and it's appreciated.

rost333:

My answer to Barry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poka-yoke

I started reading that and immediately thought "This sounds like that thing Toyota does" and then saw it mentioned further down. There are likely a lot of factors at play that would make that discipline difficult to implement in Chinese factories.

DavidEF · 2019-06-24T14:02:10.000Z

Scallywag:

rost333:

My answer to Barry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poka-yoke

I started reading that and immediately thought "This sounds like that thing Toyota does" and then saw it mentioned further down. There are likely a lot of factors at play that would make that discipline difficult to implement in Chinese factories.

Yes, even U.S.A. manufacturing facilities had to learn that from Toyota.