A note on patience...

Buy / Sell Budget Dealer Experiences
1

I’ve read a lot of posts from people who complain of slow delivery, and I wanted to add my experience - and perhaps convince buyers to sometimes cut sellers a bit of slack.

I ordered a few emitters from Intl-Outdoors (Wang Yong, aka Hank Wang) on Nov. 26/2016. I’ve ordered from him before, and have always been pleased both with product and shipping times.

Hank sent me a ‘shipped’ notice within 48 hours, c/w a tracking number. A few days later, tracking showed “departed Beijing Airport”. At that point, tracking stopped.

By Feb. 21, 2017 my package had not arrived. I wrote to Hank, and advised him of that - he wrote back immediately and volunteered to re-ship. In full knowledge that he’d done nothing wrong, I said I’d wait until Mar. 1 and contact him then.

The package finally arrived on Feb. 24, 2017 - eighty seven days after leaving Beijing airport!

Now, some salient points. Our beloved Canada Post, that black hole in the center of our Federal budget, does not track incoming international packages. Once your package from China hits our shores, all bets are off. While my emitters spent more than two months languishing in Canadas postal system, the seller could have taken the hit for $50 worth of emitters.

My point is, don’t be too quick to blow a gasket at some poor bugger half way around the planet if your stuff doesn’t show up when you’d like it to. Once he’s shipped it, there’s precious little he can do about it. Still, he’s liable to take the hit for the stupidity and poor service from the global delivery system.

I wonder how often sellers suffer a loss by people complaining that they didn’t get their shipment when they either did already get it, or it’s hung up in their own postal system.

2

Yeah, it sucks here in canada.
Several times I’ve asked for refunds from some amazon orders (since you only get like 30 days to ask for refund if your order doesn’t arrive)
Sometimes the stuff is just lost and never shows up, other times it shows up in the mail months later.
The plus side is that I basically get those for free since I already got a refund.

Usually these are very small orders though, small parts for a few dollars, I’m not trying to scam these places for free stuff.

3

I agree. Once the seller has “shipped” the item, they are not responsible for the timing of its arrival!

4

the only fly int he ointment of infinite patience?

you have to be able to COMPLETELY TRUST when they tell you the package is mailed out… cos if you wait, you lose if they are scamming you.

and as we all know, NO ONE will EVER scam you ona shipment to talk you out of a paypal dispute, right? right?

===

because as SOON as trust is built up? SOME comany will try to take advantage of it, and show profits that quarter…

5

Around Christmas the customs delay was almost 40 days, i had an incoming light sent Nov 15, got it the end of January.
The Canada post people are not much help, it took me several calls to figure out this delay existed, though once i knew i could call back and check on the delay though about half the people don’t know how to check or claim its illegal for them to look up the customs wait time in their system.

6

I am also pretty pissed sometimes by shipping time

I did order stuff from Intl outdoor, GB, BG, Ali, Kaidomain and GoingGear

and got traveling time between 10 and 14 buisness days so far for the majority of orders

also some orders arrived surprisingly fast

Most of my BG and GB orders show up within 3 weeks

But sometimes items take 6-8 weeks and GB wrote me refund after 2 months

the Nitecore TIP showed up after 7 weeks just 2 days after i complained

its not GB failure if items take so long

so far i had always success when I had problems like an item not as desription

Reports from communication with China sores

Eagle eye X2R

because the desription said AR lens

and I ordered 2 from Kaidomain

GB got me refunded each 2$

driver did not light up in moon modes due to a faulty 7135 Chip

I unsoldered all the 7135 and ordered 10 on Ali Express

Intl Outdoor did a full refund

I also got a light missing in Transit

for 9 weeks tracking showed for all the time only departed in china

The light got resent by BG

a few days after they confirmed new light is shipped it showed up here

I checked tracking again and the tracking number didnt even exist

2. light arrived in about 2 weeks, so I got 2 lights and gifted one to my dad, he has now 3 flashlight from me but as hes legally blind after a stroke he is very pleased with every light.

A lights driver died after a couple days

Sent BG a description and short video

They asked me if i can change the driver if they send me a new one

I did not hear for over a week from em

Then I asked again if they made progress getting the light fixing

and they sent a new light, probably had no response from manufactor of replacement drivers

7

Listen, don’t talk to me about patience when I’ve been waiting like 4 years for our beloved Q8 to go into production. I’m about to pop with anticipation. :stuck_out_tongue:

But seriously, good post. Good reminder.

8

Illumenated

maybe you are lucky it gets in production soon
you get the payment and light gets shipped

You wait 6 weeks and nothing arrives
They tell you they will get you a replacement light when it doesnt show up within 2 months

Light doesnt show up
BUT at that point the whole stock is sold out after the Q8 reviews gets public and demanded like crazy from flashaholics around the world
They inform you they have to do a refund or you have to wait another 3 months for a new lights batch going in production with the Thorfire Q8 logo
and they do save costs on new batch to maximize profit

9

Lexel, quit it. Have you been eavesdropping on my nightmares?

10

We’re talking about two entirely different things here. Exhibiting “infinite patience” when you have no proof the seller has even “sent” the item in question is pretty silly. Don’t trust them to never make a mistake. When they do screw up, a lot of them are very likely to make it hard on you to get it resolved, sometimes out-right lying.

But, what this thread is about is the need for exercising some patience when it’s known that the item has been shipped (or you really trust the seller, and he confirms that it shipped). Once it’s out of the seller’s hands, there is nothing they can do about shipping time. Blaming the seller and demanding a refund or a re-sent item is at least morally wrong, if not legally fraudulent.

11

Yes, but sometimes stuff really does go missing, so sooner or later, you and your supplier are going to have to draw a line under it. I cut my suppliers as much slack as I can, but eventually you run up against things like EBay, AliExpress or PayPal protection time limits.

My longest shipping delay story:

I once had a package from Convoy that hadn’t shown up after 8 weeks. Simon and I both concluded it had been lost, because Convoy stuff usually arrives here within 3-4 weeks, so he reshipped the order.

The original package showed up 2 weeks later, for a total of 10 weeks in transit, and the replacement package arrived a week after that, for a total of 3 weeks in transit. The mind frankly boggles.

Fortunately, I was happy to put the extra components in my parts box for future use, so I just sent Simon a repeat payment through PayPal. It saved me the hassle of sending the parts back to him, too.

I’ve had similar incidents with a couple of EBay sellers, as well, and one interesting thing I’ve noticed is this: they’re always remarkably happy when you report the item arriving after all and give them their refund money back.

I get the distinct impression that a lot of people just quietly keep the extra stuff in these cases, i.e. steal it. That’s not something that impresses me very much, because I’m sure those people don’t hesitate to complain about bad sellers, even as they themselves are being bad customers.

12

On the whole, I don't think anyone should feel too guilty about asking for the replacement eventually. I think most of us would rather pay this cost with 5% higher prices consistently than get hit with random losses. It's better for everyone in the long run. You don't need to be hesitant buying bigger items, and I'm sure the sellers would prefer you're not. There's no moral absolute here. If the contractual expectation is that it's absorbed on the seller's end then that's what it is, and I think that's what it is.

I also don't think we should guilt people who end up with two. If it's been 12 weeks, and they needed the one, and get a replacement, but have no use for two, then it's not "stealing". The seller doing nothing "wrong" isn't the issue. Not everything has to be about right and wrong. It's just business, as agreed.

13

I can see what you’re getting at there, and I will add this: if I don’t need the extra item, then I do say to the seller that they’ll need to pay the return shipping if they want it back. For small items, they normally let it go. For more expensive items, they’re still getting a better deal than they would otherwise.

On the subject of contractual expectations, the seller is expected to bear the loss if an item goes missing in transit, and that’s fair enough. However, if the item eventually shows up after all, it’s not missing anymore, it’s still their stuff, and they have the right to decide whether they want it back (at their expense) or not.

Bear in mind that if you keep it without telling anyone, and the postal service eventually tracks it down as having been delivered to you, you’re at risk of being charged with fraud, because they’ll have paid compensation to the seller. You’ll essentially be gaining a financial advantage you’re not entitled to at the postal service’s expense.

14

It is pretty simple when an order has not arrived and I get a refund only to have it delivered after all, I order again or something of same value, ask them not to send but mark shipped so I can confirm delivery and vendor gets money rightfully his/hers.

15

Wow, and despite all the ragging on that the USPS takes over here, they’re really good about tracking. Whether included anyway or just policy, I don’t pay extra for tracking, and will still get a USPS tracking number that keeps me apprised as to where it is.

’Though once I ordered some cells from GB, it was marked as “delivered”, only no one at the company remembers anything at all being delivered. And that was on Hallowe’en, a day the 3-4 people who might buzz in the mailman would certainly remember. Odd… After some wailing and gnashing of teeth, I eventually did get a refund.

Have some 26550s on the way via Mail Innovations handed off to UPS. I’m watching it go, all the way to the post office practically down the block… and then continue on to Great Neck, NY! So after getting an “exception” email notifying me of such, it’ll probably be here back on Monday when it’s shipped back.

But yeah, I just received some goodies from FT that acto the tracking logs, is still “in transit”. Forgot who’s to blame, whether SunYoo Post (SYPost), Singapore Air, whoever. Been getting antsy for weeks seeing it still overseas somewhere, and nothing changes the whole time.

Thankfully I never really had any issues with multi-month transit times.

16

I basically agree with letting the seller know sure, however I'm not sure about this logic. Is it still the seller's stuff or did the shipping company compensate the seller for it? Which is it? (And I don't know, but I guess the second). It can't be both. If the shipping company compensated the seller, then the shipping company owns it. If they deliver it to you anyway, it's kind of their own fault. Why would the seller want it back if they've already been compensated unless the seller intends to defraud the shipping company? Is the compensation claim not made until much later? If anyone should be notified after the seller was compensated, it's the shipping company, and then the shipping company would I guess want it returned to the seller so they can get their compensation back? I mean the shipping company doesn't want to keep a flashlight. But does the shipping company even have a procedure for this? Is it even worth it to them to have a procedure for this?

And lastly, who suffers when orders are delayed and re-sent? The buyer, even if you do get a replacement, you get it later than you needed it, which sometimes is late enough that your reason for buying it expired. Even if you get a refund it doesn't roll back time. You can't go back in time and buy it again. You either don't have what you need for when you needed it, or you pay more to re-order with express shipping or you get something less suitable or more expensive or both locally. Is it even right that the courier gets off free? Ironcially it's not clear it even makes the courier "happier" as just paying the penalty and NOT trying to intercept or recover the shipment might be easier for them than dealing with it.

I'm not at all convinced that there is even the slightest legal risk of the buyer being charged with fraud for not reporting a package eventually arriving. I very much doubt it.

17

I have a package arriving
Waited 1 month
It’s really piss me, because the tracking code is useless
Last update is on 14-feb, it said” tha package is at shipper warehouse”

18

heres my take on it…

1) practical real life. I contracted to receive something from “SUMwun flashlights”. Its an internet company. THATS who i bought the light off of. If theres a ghost company on their end, whatever. SUMwun flashlights is obligated to mske sure i “get” my flashlight. I dont care who made it, i just care they sold it to me. If its a drop ship, whatever… THEY are on MY hook for a flashlight. Now, if its actually the drop shippers “fault”? Thats not my concern, thats SUMwun’s concern, thats between SUMwun and the dropshipper. If its the shippers fault? Again, thats because “somebody” contracted with that shipper… not my concern. I get a light in the mail eventually? cool. I dont get one? I expect SUMwun to be my point of contact to fix it.

I like to stay “on point”, and the rest is smoke and mirrors. YOU take payment, YOU owe me. If you handle it? fine. If I have to paypal twist your arm? whatever…

2) Now, if its interesting in a crossword puzzle sort of way? You want to really understand the complicated network of SUMwun Inc… know theres a ghost company drop shipper… realize THIS shipper gets it, then passes it to THAT shipper, and gets handed off to ABC who sends it to my post office system?

shrugs

I have the “crossword gene”, i LIKE to understand things… but, thats only in an idle curiosity sort of way.

==

I get a FLASHLIGHT. Or i get my money back. I dont WANT 2 lights, but, its better than NO LIGHT. I would LIKE to ship the extra one back? I dont wanna pay 30 dollars shipping to send back a 5 dollar light, SUMwun doesnt wanna pay it… whatever.

I DO feel bad for “some entity somewhere” when 2 lights show up in the end, but, I’m not hiring a private investigator to track down the complicated network of contracts and obligations, thats someone elses job title.

i like to stay on point with the basics. SUMwun might be eager to blame the shipper or the ghost company, the ghost company might blame shipping or SUMwun… theres multiple “shipping” going on from china to my house… real easy for everyone to point hte finger at the other in a big circle.

Its a giant football team, from SUMwun to ghost company, and the multiple shipping companies… The TEAM fumbled. Whatever…

I get a light or my money, SUMwun can do “whatever” it is they “do”…

=

I recently started shipping xp-g1 emitters. I have shipped over a thousand of them in total, i hope to ship more.

if one of my customers doesnt GET their emitters? Its MY responsibility to fix it. Or give them money. The fact that I KNOW i mailed it at the post office? might mean something to ME, and concerning “who” i might try to get the cost back out of… but, thats immaterial to the guy in Wyoming or in the UK who didnt get emitters.

if the buyer WANTS to be kind and understanding of the fact i am re-selling with no profit? To help my friends out? or for whatever other reason? Thats really nice… but, they dont HAVE to.

on HERE though? you know me personally, i know you personally… we all sh!t in the same pit. I actually WANT to ship more of them, at cost, to more members… and i cant COMPLETE MY MISSION if theres a “problem”, no matter what that problem is.

Maybe i COULD blame the post office, MAYBE i can get something back out of them, maybe not… but, the problem is my baby. My MISSION is to ship emitters at cost right now. If ONE person complains? That will prevent 10 times as many future members from getting helped, and i either stop my mission or i continue and “eat it”.

a for-profit company? their mission might be to show a profit. They might re-sell at cost to attract customers, or even sell below cost just to clear out shelves to stock new product and show more profit. They might have a price buster on one thing, figuring you’ll buy more thngs to go with it. Whatever.

In the end? the CUSTOMER wants what he paid for, or his money back. WHo gets blamed, who pays it, who eats it, who ships out twice? ALL immaterial to the buyer.

Now that i shipped over a thousand emitters? I can see things from the sellers point of view, and i am still a customer from other sellers. Yeah, if you get a refund and want to keep quiet about receiving 100 emitters, because you are that much of a cheapskate? thats on you and how you like th guy in the mirror. If I ship you another 100 emitters? and 3 months later the first 100 shows up?

shrugs

i expect you to say something, heck, i might suggest YOU do a “give away”.

===

maybe THATS what we should all do. When we occasionally get a second free shipment? or a refund and still get the product? Maybe we should all agree to do some kind of giveaway here, or, post the “gifting” of it.

NO ONE can “make” other people be honest, no one can make other people agree to help other members out for no profit… but? you should try it sometime… it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling all over, and it makes you feel good about yourself, and thats in a way that snickering at your good fortune to get free stuff doesnt give you.

the man in the mirror looking back at you? you will LlIKE HIM MORE… and all the people that know you? will probably like you more too.

so far? i have made over a dozen members “happy”. I am happy too… thats 13+ happy people.

if just one member would do what i did and am doing? 26+ members would be happy… think of the possibilities if this catches on…

===

i say, lets all be VERY HAPPY, and this hasnt cost me anything yet… and we all sh!t in the same pit here? we might as well all be whistling and happy since we are all here anyways.

19

Oh, there certainly is a legal risk. The practical risk (of getting caught) is essentially zero, but knowingly keeping something you ended up not paying for is always fraud.

On the other hand, the moment you tell the seller that the original package arrived after all, it becomes their problem. They’re the ones who have a contract with the shipping company, not you, so it’s up to them to sort out return shipping if they want the package back, and it’s up to them to sort out returning any compensation the shipping company might have given them.

If the seller then decides to keep the package and the compensation, they’re the fraudsters, not you, and any consequences will be theirs to bear. I happen to find that knowledge reassuring.

20

If it’s important or expensive, you pay to insure the shipment :wink: This protects you and the seller from things outside of your control. I have noticed a number of people who make a habit out of filing against ‘lost shipments’ too quickly. For the seller to resolce that, they have to send it again, losing the cost of the item(s) and the costs of shipping, which they have to recoup by having their prices high enough to cover. So that costs me and you too when we order things from that seller.

Yes, we all want it immediately but it’s far less stressful to have the attitude of “It gets here whenever it arrives” which is the approach I use :smiley: And I try to stick with known good sellers, both for my safety and to help support their businesses so they will be there when I want something else later on. So far I’ve been lucky with my orders and pleasantly surprised when each one shows up here. It’s kind of fun too, and we can all use more fun I think :sunglasses:

Phil