Are Customers Forcing Chinese Light Makers to Make Junk?

LED Flashlights – General Info
1

On another forum here a member posted asking for a source to buy a good SkyRay King. Many answering posters recommended the SupFire M6 as a better alternative. One poster came back with the comment that he felt that the M6 was too expensive. Below is my answer which I decided deserved it’s own thread, so here it is, expanded.

“The SupFire M6 can be had for about $40 from RMM which is LESS than the SRK originally went for and the attempts to lower the SRK price have been accompanied by the deterioration in quality to the point that a light which used to be “Budget” has now become “JUNK” in many instances. I prefer a moderate priced light with good and CONSISTENT quality from batch to batch so you know what to expect when buying one. That is what the M6 delivers so far.

One of the problems with the Chinese light industry at the lower levels is inconsistent quality as exemplified by the SRK and it’s clones. A good part of this is that this part of the market is apparently so competitive that some makers engineers constantly try to reduce manufacturing costs and in many instances they introduce changes which make the design functionally poorer and either no longer reliable or with reduced output. Then their reputation goes to hell and they start getting returns from buyers like RMM and dissatisfied retail customers or the retail ones post here about their bad experience with XXX light.

A light like the M6 is an incredible buy compared to comparable output name brand lights from Fenix, Jetbeam, Nitecore and other name brand USA importers and yet the lights all come out of the same large group of factories in one area of China. One difference though is the major brands have concerns with quality and their reputations.

Please quit continuously demanding lower prices and concentrate instead on demanding better quality and better UIs for the same price. Honest engineering Lumens ratings and other specifications would be nice too. Constantly demanding lower prices is going to mean that the lower end Chinese goods manufacturers think price is all that matters and so continue to turn out unreliable junk. My background is QA and Reliability engineering and I want very good quality at a reasonable price. I understand that major USA retailers are some of the biggest offenders in continuously demanding lower prices and search the world for them. Maybe we need to let them know that as customers we also want high quality goods.”

I suspect that eventually other countries are going to force China to revalue it’s currency which has been held at an artificially low exchange rate for a long time. When that happens you are going to see large increases in the cost of Chinese goods and many manufacturers and international companies moving operations to India or Africa.”

Now agree with me or tear this apart but do think about what I am saying. This is the “BUDGET” light group but that word does not mean that we want to buy JUNK or be lied to by absolutely ridiculous and impossible advertising claims.

2

Well, duh. They'll make what sells, and if people buy crippled SRK clones because it saves a couple bucks, then the chinese are going to keep making them.

Spending a few extra bucks means getting the design/performance I expect, and it means not dealing with the hassle and weeks or months of time to get a refund or replacement, if it results in a refund or replacement at all.

Unfortunately new members and visitors are still looking at all the glowing reviews for the SRK and SRK clones that don't mention that quality has recently taken a dive. Older active members should know better.

3

> I understand that major USA retailers are some of the biggest offenders in continuously demanding
> lower prices and search the world for them.

I’ve seen this mentioned year after year, including by people in China — that they can produce to any level of quality.

But there was also a post here some time back by a European working in China — I wish I could find it again — saying his experience was that suppliers would produce a small good first batch, then another good batch to acquire a large order — then deliver the large order with cheap junk substitutions. He was gobsmacked because in his experience the suppliers didn’t try to build a reputation to sustain it, they built a reputation to trade on it to make one big score by screwing the buyer.

I wasn’t dreaming that. I wish I could find the post and inquire further.

Meanwhile China has the very same toxic waste problems and poisoned landscape that the Europeans and Americans produced during early industrialization. Yeah, they could have avoided that. Yeah, we could have helped.

It makes me suspect that crippling the people coming up in the world is considered good business, rather than letting a billion people with a huge unpolluted country leap past that kind of experience.

China could have gone from Red to Green.
That would have made them a scary competitor, I guess.

We led them from Red to Brown.
Handicapped, like a new racehorse, weighted down to the same level as the older competitors.

Examples:
China’s soil pollution: It’s much worse than you think - Fortune
fortune.com/2014/…/chinas-soil-pollution-its-much-worse-than-you-thin…
Apr 18, 2014 - Close to 20% of China’s arable land is contaminated by heavy metals, posing severe global economic and political consequences in the …
China Admits That One-Fifth Of Its Farmland Is … - NPR
www.npr.org/…/china-admits-that-a-fifth-of-its-farmland-is-contami…
NPR
Apr 18, 2014 - Most of the contaminated farm land is on the highly developed and industrialized east coast, but heavy metal pollution was especially bad in …
Heavy metal pollution in China: origin, pattern and control.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/…
National Center for Biotechnology Information
by S Cheng - ‎2003 - ‎Cited by 210 - ‎Related articles
GOAL, SCOPE AND BACKGROUND: Heavy metal is among one of the pollutants, which cause severe threats to humans and the environment in China. The aim …
China could lose millions of hectares of farmland to pollution …
www.theguardian.com › Environment › Pollution
The Guardian
Jan 23, 2014 - Millions of hectares of agricultural land in China could be withdrawn from production because of severe heavy-metal pollution, according to a …
China Details Vast Extent of Soil Pollution - Wall Street Journal
online.wsj.com/…/SB1000142405270230462630…
The Wall Street Journal
Apr 17, 2014 - The extent of China’s soil pollution, long guarded as a state secret, was … Heavy metal particles in the air and water seep into the land, then …

4

Hank;

Not sure that we are responsible for the pollution or could have changed the path taken. If you look at communism around the world it has taken the quick and very dirty route to building and running industry. Just look at the amount Germany has spent since East & West recombined to clean up the total mess left by the East German Government. Similar problems I believe for other eastern European countries. Per my understanding the post communist Russian government has made an ecological disaster of developing their oil industry which now provides a large percentage of their hard currency trade. Unless demanded by their people governments seem to take the expedient and cheapest route for development regardless of long term consequences.

The heavy metals pollution you cite is an example and I wonder how much of it dates back to Mao and his Great Leap Forward which had small blast furnaces being built in every village that was any where near coal and iron ore deposits of any size. Possibly even earlier as China was the first country to make cast iron, as early as about the time of Christ. Also been doing brass/bronze metal casting for 4000+ years or so.

Whatever the causes pollution in many areas is now biting them in the derriere.

5

It's unfair to blame communism. We created lots of pollution on our shores during our industrial age, and even though we've improved, we still make big messes since businesses can all too often easily escape the external costs of carelessness. It's not just business either. My last base is responsible for a big mess in Albuquerque that could spoil the aquifer. Then there's the ongoing nuclear mess at Hanford.

6

leaftye;

We have learned a lot in the last generation or so about pollution and preventing it and attitudes have changed in the USA. Just saying with the example of Russian Oil that some governments still take the quick and dirty, and short term cheap development route.

As for Hanford take a look at the lack of knowledge about radiation and it’s dangers when it was built and much of the time being run. Look at the watch dial painters who were killed by radium radiation pre WWII. Military bases have unfortunately become notorious for pollution problems left behind. Again though ask yourself about what was known at the time it took place about the dangers of pollution, particularly long term?

7

There is often a learning curve for any new entry into technology. To a new guy Ultrafire batteries look the same as Panasonic and the specs are much better (5000mA……right). Why not get those. They also won’t have the knowledge or tools to test them. They’ll work, not as well as a good battery but WAY better than the (probably crap) NiMh they’ve been used to so they are very very happy with their new discovery.
Take a look at lots of site reviews. Very few people have much more to offer in a review than, “I bought it, it works, I’m happy”. Try to find ONE review in 50 that offers anything like a capacity test on something like a powerbank.

A next step up might be the guy learns UF batteries are crap and wants the ability to test them. So, a bit smarter he goes searching for tools and a site like this recommends getting a hobby charger. The IMAX B6 is frequently recommended. It’s one of the cheaper ones and all the 4-button chargers look pretty much the same since they are ALL clones (original is Bantam). But unseen quality varies a LOT. In addition there are now FAKE IMAX B6 as well as the ‘original’. So people buy the fake one on eBay thinking they got a great deal, and unless they have even MORE tools and knowledge they may not know that one is screwing up their batteries, and potentially unsafe. This probably happens more than it does not.

(Note-I warn people off them all the time, including this site, but it doesn’t do much good most likely. You don’t know what you don’t know.)

This can progress to the point of tossing out all the garbage, getting decent stuff and becoming a smarter consumer. But I think for every discriminating consumer there are probably a dozen that simply are not. This alone is enough to keep the cheap ball rolling. The Chinese are definitely showing us one part of capitalism that can go funky.

8

Many everyday customers who just visit ebay, DX etc often just want a flashlights. Most are actually very happy with what they get (people not used to LED lights). Either they are impressed, or their light fail, and they say something like. "Cant get quality for that price anyway. It was good while it lasted".

I think regulars on BLF are quite value oriented. Some people have different perspective on value. That is natural.

As for the M6. You also have to consider that buying M6 from USA is not that cheap for international customers. Personally I think the M6 is overrated. But I understand why its popular by the non-moddes and casual modders. If I have to pay 50$ in order to get myself another M6 host, ill just pick up a SRK for 25$ on sale. If the pill is bad. It costs me about 1-5$ to fix it. If its good. I can get two lights for the price of one M6. Buying the M6, ill have to replace lens, driver, and emitters anyway, so I might as well start with a light that have crappy parts. I generally don't recommend the SRK lights that I buy. But I make them good. Often I prefer the anodizing of them too over the cheap glossy looking finish on the M6. These are just my reasons for not only buying M6s. I want variety, I want to try new shapes and sizes.

If you have been in the scene two years ago the quality we are now able to get cheap now is way better IMO. Two years ago, most half decent C8 lights cost 30$, some of those were a gamble on output. Even some recommended in the 20$ range were a gamble. Many were into P60s and such. You either bought cheap hosts, or Solarforce. Solarforce with some options and nice drop in could easily cost you 50$ total. You usually had to get CW.

Now, we have lights costing around 15-25$ (various Convoys as an example) with tint and output options that many would prefer over lights earlier costing 30-60$ two years earlier. As far as I know, there are now way more brands making quality lights at very good prices. Most of the super cheap lights will always be junk. But if everybody avoided such lights, we would not be aware of some bargain lights or brands.

There are many lights that are just overpriced too. I think many on BLF like to gamble on cheaper lights, hoping that they are good instead of buying expensive lights and become disappointed. I think I have been more disappointed buying expensive lights than inexpensive lights. But then again, I mod, so the majority of inexpensive lights can be transformed into something good or great.

I agree with OP. Im all for quality over quantity. Im all for paying a few bucks extra if that gives me a better product. But Im also for the evolution that quality does not always have to cost (much) extra. The minor cost increase it takes to increase the quality on a light can be earned back by increased sales and future brand loyalty and reputation. Personally I don't like overpaying. I think the line between overpaying and getting great value is a line that many try to balance.

9

The problems I mentioned could be fixed, but there's not enough will to get it done in a timely manner. It just keeps getting kicked down the road for the next guy to handle. We're going to have new problems because there's no incentive to be cautious. There may be good reason to be concerned, but if there's no proof of dangers, then business is allowed to go forward. As you said, it's because we don't know, which has become an excuse to grab up profit before we do know. Look at what Louisiana recently did, or look at Duke Energy. It's all about protecting businesses from external costs, so they're permitted to make messes over and over again while everyone else pays for it. Imagine if pharmaceuticals worked the same way.

Anyhow, China is coming around. Let's see where they are in 60 years.

10

“… according to Xinhua, the state news agency….
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/indepth/2014-04/17/c_133270984.htm
… cadmium, nickel and arsenic … levels of these materials in the soil had risen sharply since land studies in 1986 and 1990. The level of cadmium had risen by 50 percent in the southwest and in coastal areas and by 10 percent to 40 percent in other regions, Xinhua reported. The soil in southern China is more polluted than in the north….”

Just sayin’, this is what people do.
Europe did it; the US did it ignoring Europe’s experience;
China and India are doing the very same stupid development path.

Perhaps people aren’t smart enough for technology.

Have you tested the paint on your flashlights for lead content?
It’s a simple test, a little swab you can buy in the hardware store.

“Trust, but verify” isn’t enough, against stupidity.

11

https://www.chinadialogue.net/ is worth a look, especially for readers in China.

Been there, seen that, got the bumper sticker

12

Given the money being made in China, Id argue greed is making them make junk. The same reason we (the west) made junk. Not everything was junk, just the umm, junk was junk.

13

The liberal drivel is nauseating…please stick to the facts and we can all draw our own conclusions. Back to flashlights please :wink:

14

Just for curiosities sake, define liberal. Because Ill tell you one thing, it seems to have a unique meaning in the US, not one found in its definition. Im not asking you to say who is liberal, and why etc, that would be politics, and not allowed. Im asking you to define the word.

You dont like these things?
For clarification, Im not American, Im not interested in debating who in the US is what, and who they are doing what too. Im simply saying, you speak English. Maybe the people you brand as liberal, are not liberal at all. Maybe what you think is liberal, is not liberal at all.

When you shout liberal as an insult, youre basically asking, “why would you love freedom and progress”. Im aware its being used in the US to define a political position, I just dont quite get why educated people would go along with it. My post isnt politically motivated, its simply about language.

15

I argue for pushing Chinese and other makers to do it better: higher quality, quality control, worker involvement, pride in the work, communication with customers: things BLF encourages. The modders here sharing how and why to improve gear excel at this.

Avoiding putting others at risk with tech that requires knowledge: also what BLF encourages. Nobody wants to hear about a battery fire in someone’s home.

Call that ‘liberal’? I would say it’s human kindness and smart self-interest to share and point out when someone’s cheating, overcharging, cutting corners. Free market means buyer and seller are fully informed to agree on a fair price. People do that here.

Two better places that welcome argument about what the words mean in practice: I recommend commenting in either of them, to go further into this:

… the level of “helping each other out” that goes on in Silicon Valley is quite incredible:
“Another fascinating phenomenon in the valley is that every entrepreneur and investor seems genuinely interested in helping strangers succeed.” [Scott Adams]
… the degrees to which many in the Valley are legitimately trying to do amazing things and change the world is part of what’s so inspiring in an age where cynicism and protectionism is so prevalent elsewhere.”

So Do Outcomes Matter More than Rhetoric?
David Brin, self-described libertarian: “Liberals” are the true heirs of Adam Smith… (whom most historians rightly call “the first liberal”)…
—-
I’m done.

16

I will try to stick with the OP and answer, without talking about the environment or hawks and doves.

Do I want cheap? Nope, but I cannot afford expensive and I still want. I make a fairly low wage and side jobs keep me afloat, but I can't afford good quality, so I buy cheap. Lately I just get free lights for giveaways, because the economy is worse, prices are higher and I can't buy what I used to for the same money. Before you try to qualify cheap versus quality, you need to understand that there are members here who spent more than my whole year's salary on "trinkets" and there are others here making much less than I do, so the thought of setting a guideline for "cheap" versus "expensive" is a waste of time, due to the diversity of members here.

As far as the SRK clones versus the M6, I can buy an SRK clone for less than $20, but I can't get an M6 for anywhere near that and seeing as how I would not use it stock, there's little reason to buy a more expensive version, when I am going to put XM-L2 leds on copper stars and up the amperage anyhow. Now for someone who just wants a nice stock light, then maybe, but after all most of us are never happy with stock lights, here in this forum.

Do we demand the low price that has caused the lack of quality in China? Nope, not at all. The low quality in China is because they don't want to make good quality. It's been proven that their way of thinking is look for the big sale and don't worry about rep, because there's always someone who will still buy and if that doesn't work, then simply change your company's name ang go about doing it all over again. They don't do quality control, they don't want to unless they have to. It's volume that they want, not quality. Also, with their fake currency values, it doesn't really matter and what is the real cost for them? Hard to know and obviously other countries like it that way, since it's allowed to go on and promoted. Actually, I will step back and say it's not countries, but just the powerful few who are making billions on China and they want it to stay that way, just as they have forever every time they can. Africa should be the next ones to soar, if those few in power can find a way to control it.

Anyhow, all I want is lower costs and hope for the best quality I can get for those lower costs and that's it.

I don't have spell check at work, so there might be a lot of errors...

17

Old-Lumens;

Good luck when you get some of the current SRKs which per my understanding do not even have a shelf for the LED mounting plate to sit on and transfer heat to the light shell. A member who got one was told by the seller that this was a “new feature” to take care of complaints about the light body getting too hot per his post!!! Try to mod that or increase the output much. That was what I meant when I mentioned cheapening changes which caused degraded performance and/or failures.

There are Chinese optical companies doing very high grade work for companies such as Zeiss, Leitz and Nikon per my understanding but their work is also being very thoroughly checked by their customers and they know it. They also have had to sign some pretty iron-bound contracts with penalties. Others in the electronics and computer industries are apparently doing good work or practically every TV, cell phone and personal computer in the world would be failing frequently.

18

There is no need for luck. Just the need to make a new proper pill. A pill that is better than what I should have had.

I have only gotten one SRK without a pill. I got a 7,5$ refund. Ended up with a really cheap host. :) Im OK with that.

19

supply by demand.
to make it worse sometimes they even cut the budget to make it cheaper that affected the quality :frowning:

20

I think they make some real decent lights for cheap. The thing that irks me is that poor 5 mode arrangement we all know and hate. Give me a light with no sos and a proper low or moonlight and I’m a happy man.

In a way, this forum is the best tool to keep china’s flashlight market in check. We warn of the rip-off’s and promote the good deals.