I’m asking since I think for most products everyone is use to plugging in it the wall directly, e.g. laptops, phones and game controllers have no issues OR removing cells from the device and leaving it overnight, e.g. power tools and cameras.
From what I’ve seen, (e.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/flashlight/s/mN4BbFIMt8) it seems like the safety of the BMS is not great in general and I assume you can also get bad cells that makes it worse. It’s also recommended to charge the cell not overnight and nearby you so you can react which seems silly for mostly every other product except lights usually. (i’m saying it since I got new cells and everyone recommends to charge it externally nearby you even if they’re from reputable brands. I have not been told that for other cells for other products.)
Do we ever see a time when the BMS will be good enough (I’m ignoring ingress issues for lights) or is it that every light manufacturer wants to save every penny so they will never do it willingly? Also reminds me of USB-C - C charging not always working because we need to save a few cents on resistors.
This light is an inherently stupid and dangerous design because the cells are hard-wired in parallel without any fuses. However, they only make contact through spring contacts that can be intermittent.
You can end up in a scenario where one of the 3 cells does not make good contact and has dropped to, let’s say, 2.5 V, while the other cells are fully charged at 4.2 V.
Now, if the light gets bumped or something and the discharged cell suddenly makes contact, it will be charged at a ridiculously high rate
potentially hundreds of amps
and…
other then this i trust my usb-c charging lights the same way i trust a random amazon power bank.
I don’t see a problem with USB or USB-C. I see the problem as multi-cell lights with integrated charging. That system/ those lights I do not trust.
Over the past 25+ years of flashaholism, I have had nothing but problems from lights with multiple cells. I have been lucky with just killed cells but still, yeah I won’t buy them anymore.
My guess what happened was that of the 3 dead cells, 1 lost its connection (jiggled loose, etc.), the other 2 got fully charged, then the still-dead cell reconnected, and you got 1 dead + 2 full suddenly crowbarred together, and the runt of the litter wasn’t prepared for “fast charging” by like a billion amps.
The only “bms” to speak of is that solid metal ring in the head.
Aren’t all cells held with springs on one side at least? I don’t recall seeing ones where you forcefully insert it and the cell is kept in contact like the 4 AA packs.
It’s not just about a BMS or type C port.
Cell phones typically have 5 or 10 temperature sensors spread throughout the phone to monitor and shut/slow things down if it starts getting too hot. And that’s not just while charging.
Some flashlights are starting to use temperature sensors related to charging. Some of those are built into the USB C charging apparatus that is spot welded onto batteries. Although not all have them.
For me, cell phones are probably the only thing that I charge while sleeping.
Huh… didn’t see this after replying. Window jumped to my reply vs next-to-read message…
Crowbarred parallel cells existed since the dawn of time. The OG Q8 and all newer variants, which though don’t do parallel charging, can theoretically lose contact with any cell(s) that suddenly reconnect, etc.
Even my old EA8 (The Cave Man) is 2 parallel banks of 4 AA cells. Works with a bank of 4, but I noticed one of those banks is a little “scratchy” and can drop out then reconnect with vibration.
Plenty of bigger, and I mean BIGGER lights that throw together multiple banks of series/parallel cells in huge holders and no bms that I recall.
Point is that parallelled cells have been around forever, and one freak mishap doesn’t make it anywhere close to hoverboards, scooters, etc., that DO have bmses but still burn down houses and garages, etc.
Pure parallel is ironically the safest multicell connection you can get.
My Fenix WT25R has a magnetic charging port, and my Fenix E12 V2.0 has 14500 at 1.5V with USB charging port on the battery, plus my Vapcell S4 Plus V3.0 is working perfectly, and i prefer to charge the batteries out of the flashlights !
I don’t really get it why people continue to charge the batteries in their flashlights, through their build in charging systems - ports … !? Is very weird to me… !?
I got a Haikelite that’s 4S (thrower). Had I known, I would’ve gotten the 4P (flooder). Neither has onboard charging, but I could use nekkid cells in 4P whereas I gotta use protected cells in 4S.
And I’d do it comfortably just as with my Q8s, DC7, etc.
Most people don’t know they will get slightly better battery longevity if they charge in a dedicated charger. And it’s hard to blame them - their battery will still last hundreds of full cycles with onboard charging. A replacement 21700 is like $5 and likely to be better than the battery that came with the light. That is of course setting aside the proprietary batteries like Olight where people don’t have a choice.
I have some great chargers (including MC5000) but I have a set of small EDC and around the house lights (EC150, SC13, etc.) where I have no problem using the built-in charging. Modern integrated charging circuits are pretty good - plenty of reviewers test charging curves and they generally look pretty save and conservative. Frequently 1 to 1.5 amps, and many stop well before 4.2v.
Plus, you save some wear and tear on your threads, which could be even more significant over time than the benefits to charging batteries externally. Most of my anodized threads are nice and smooth, but I have quite a few lights (especially titanium threads or unanodized ones) where I feel like the threads are wearing each other down with each use. I can get replacement batteries but what do I do if I mess up the threads?
The differences are really at the margins for most users and most lights. I tend to agree that with multiple-battery lights you might want to exercise more caution as the risks can be higher.
I mean if everything chargers over a USB-C charger in your life, removing the battery is weird.
My laptop, battery banks, controllers and likely other things I’m forgetting do that and that is likely a majority of folks there.
My power tools do have removable cells so I’m use to that, but also that is a lot of wattage if I want them charging over USB-C and quite frankly many power tools come with chargers so you’re likely having many all over the place.
My cameras can charge internally at ~30W USB-C PD but I don’t do it because it warms the body and can wear it down. I use a USB-C external charger for that reason as well as charging 2 batteries at once and leaving 1 battery on standby.
Flashlights are cheap enough that any wear/tear isn’t as bad since you can buy another one. After all if you can all horde a lot of lights, well then they are very replaceable.
I literally made a post about trying to find a light WITH USB-C and most people opted to answer it by buying a travel charger versus answering my question so a lot of folks have different mindsets and that’s ok. Just don’t forget other folks exist and outside of this hobby. many hobbies have unified over to it. I can charge a switch, macbook, handheld radio, among others with it. Some mini PCs can run on USB-C for power as well as power over ethernet if you want exotic power sources… Flashlight are the one odd exception due to ingress. While I do agree for some folks, for many that’s not as huge of a concern so USB-C should be more common TBH. I honestly wish we can also push FW updates over it too versus JTAG of whatever we use now.
My camera and FFL X4 survived sand storms and rain so I don’t see why a USB-C power is a concern for many but YMMV I guess.
With the exception of my phone(s). Nothing is left on charge overnight or when I’m out of the house. I will try and charge my phone during the day but sometimes overnight charging is necessary.
Yes this is a not uncommon annoyance. Some of the bi-directional charging lights are particularly annoying as you can’t force them to act as sink or source, so you end up using your phone to charge your lantern when you actually wanted to top up your phone battery.
While I do own a couple of lights with cells in parallel, I’m a little wary of them - the BMS only “sees” a single cell as they’re connected in parallel. An internal short in one cell results in both good cells discharging through the bad, qually, bad connection etc as discussed can result in the cells becoming unbalanced.
I think it also worth mentioning charging speed, my BLF LT1 takes quite a long time to charge the 4x 18650 cells, or I can charge them in a 4-bay charger in about 1.5 hours from flat.
Finally, one of the issues with in-light charging is if there is an issue, the cell is housed in a metal tube with no easy escape for the venting gasses. At least with a phone, laptop or external charger, the cells can vent and not imitate a pipe bomb…
Edit to add… Modern lights are better than the old ones, I forget the brand (ITP?) but there used to be at least one light which had in-light charging with 2 or 3 removable cells in series and just used the overall series voltage(!). This light was considered fairly novel at the time as it had multiple LEDs arranged on a bizarre “stalk” shaped heatsink to try and achieve a combination of high output and good throw.
I’ve got a considerable number of flashlights. Some of them have charging ports. I also have quite a few chargers, from 1 bay till 4 bay. And all of my cells are charged in those chargers, where I can monitor the charging process on a display. And always in the same room where I am (eh… my man cave). On my desk I have a powerstrip with switch, that switch goes to “off” when I go to bed.
The only device that occasionally is charged over night is my smartphone, next to me.
[citation needed]
Why would this be a general thing.
sure there are some special cases. but this go in both ways. so i don’t see how you can make a general statement like this
Ah I forgot this bit in my original reply. The X4 is a single cell light, which I think generally more tolerated for in-light USB C charging as there’s only 1 cell to have an issue.
I guess if you wanted to cause yourself issues, you could use some dubious quality (e.g) Amazon cells! the BMS doesn’t “know” you’re using garbage cells so happily lets the charger/light exceed the cells current capacity.
The camera is using a proprietary OEM battery with thermistor, known (to the manufacturer) quality cells, and known quality BMS.
There’s no reason a quality flashlight manufacturer couldn’t achieve the same, but sales would be terrible as (nearly) everyone dislikes proprietary cells/batteries.
I can’t see your other posts, did you post on here or Reddit? There are plenty of lights that offer built-in USB C charging, your appetite to risk will determine which you eventually choose.
It’s always better to charge the batteries on an external battery charger, you can check out the battery life much better, and you don’t have to “force” all this power through the flashlight charging system… etc… etc… !
And don’t forget how many flashlights they are starting to have problems after a while, because they charge the batteries on them !
Basically the on board charging is to use it once in a while when you are in the go and you don’t have your full equipment with you… ! All though you can always have a few extra batteries with you… !
The solution is simple. Charge a cell in the light, and the second it finishes charging, pop out the cell and measure the voltage on it.
Later, let it finish and keep it plugged in a few hours, measure again.
Anything less than 4.20V is good. 4.15V or so even better.
Someone reported, but I never got arsed enough to verify, that the infamous Tacklife finishes at 4.1V or so, but if you leave it, a slow trickle pushes up the voltage a bit over 4.2V.
Most other lights use pretty much the same chip and circuit to charge the cell, and they’re pretty much tried and true.
When I get a new light, I’ll put the cell through the Ope to measure its capacity. Later, after it burned off some voltage, I’ll do the above test once, then forget it unless it overcharges.
I don’t know about others, but I treat any rechargeable device or cell like this, even NiMH. I also keep certain appliances unplugged except during use, but probably that’s unnecessary. The same model microwave I have is the same one that caught an aunt’s house on fire.
However I do use the integrated charging in some lights, sometimes just out of convenience like with my Armytek headlamp magnetic charging. They’re very slow, but that’s better for battery health AFAIK.
Most of my lights do not have integrated charging. Multi-cell lights I always charge externally unless in “emergency.”
Most of my power tools are corded, but the ones that aren’t still get charged under usually indirect supervision. I just don’t want to take chances with anything.
So do I trust integrated charging in lights? Yeah about as much as I trust a regular external charger, but I still would rather charge cells outside the light if I had the choice. A big reason is that you get more information, and I don’t even have a fancy charger.
Another thing is that if I am looking for or gifting a light to a non-light addict, I want to be sure it has some sort of integrated charging, because many people don’t take battery safely as seriously as they should.
I make sure to highly stress the importance of safety, like telling them to make sure they never leave the battery laying around outside a case or light, never charge it away from them, try to ¼ turn mechanically lockout if it’s going to sit a while (because most lights with USB charging are electronic switches afaik), you know, the usual.
Lots of people will leave their phone or other electronics charging overnight way too close to their pillow or bed, I’m sometimes guilty of it too. It’s just best to treat them all the same way. It’s fine like 99% of the time, but you should not want to have happen the 1% chance.
Maybe not the biggest reason, but the most frequent reason that I charge externally is that almost all my lights don’t have the option. USB-C is sometimes an actual deal breaker for me, mostly because of the water resistance, even though I’ve almost never had a problem with that.
