Assistance requested..Over-charged 18650s?

LED Flashlights – General Info 18650 Flashlights
1

Okay, yes, I’m a new guy. Okay, yes, I did what it seems everyone does, and I sprung for three of the red UltraFire 3000mv “protected” batteries with a dual and a single charger because, well, they were cheap. Yes, before I read enough forum posts, I charged all of them overnight. One of them has been working fine powering my no-name XM-L T6 that came with my first host – a 502b Ultrafire from Amazon. I don’t think I’ve used the other two since I charged them up.

So today, I received a Sipik SK98 zoomy, an UF WF-501A, and the highly anticipated UltraFire 3-mode XM-L T6 drop-n from Manafont.

Excited, I loaded up the SK98 with one of the red 18650s, and turned it on. These Sipiks have 3 modes, which I thought was a plus since reviewers who tested them were disappointed that using them for long periods on high burn out the plastic washer that houses the emitter. So I just planned on using it on low most of the time, hoping for some decent flood anyway – which it certainly has. BUT, if I turn it on high mode, it shuts off within 10 seconds.

Likewise, if I plug the other charged battery I haven’t been using into a host with the new MF UF XM-L 3-mode, doesn’t matter which host, and turn it on high – the same thing happens. Shuts down within 10 seconds. It will turn back on, but seems to flip and shut down. Other modes seem fine.

The battery that has been in use runs fine, and runs that new drop-in fine. That drop-in in the 501a running on a CR123 runs fine.

So did I overcharge these 2 UF Red 18650s well beyond the limit of these XM-Ls? I don’t have a voltage meter yet. Nor do I have a way to discharge that I know of. It would be very hard for me to believe I got both a bunk UF drop-in AND a bunk SK98. Also hard to believe I charged them over the 4.7v that drop in is supposed to be limited at. Are these drivers designed to shut things off if the voltage is too high? I thought they’d just fry the driver or emitter…

Advice? What can I do here?

Thanks.

Edit: BOTH of the new XM-Ls shut down within several seconds, even with the less-charged 3rd batter. WTF?

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Hmmm… maybe undercharged crap batteries?

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May be bad protection circuit on the batteries, bad batteries in general. I would recommend that you stay away from ultrafire batteries. I use Xtar 2600 (sanyo cells).

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Sounds like the cell protection circuit is tripping, and shutting down power delivery when the current draw is higher than a certain amount.
The fact that multiple lights exhibit similar behavior points towards a battery problem.

Some lights drivers do have over-voltage protection, but that doesn’t sound like whats going on here.

You NEED to get yourself a multi-meter, theres no safe way to use 18650 cells without one. There no way to know exactly what the cells are doing without putting them on a meter.

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Thank you. I am with ya - but they still work with that first no-name XM-L drop-in just fine. Obviously I need to invest in better batteries, but I never had an issue with these Red UltraFires until I got the SK98 and that MF UF XM-L 3-mode.

Cornfused over here. LOL.

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AND, I bought two of them separately. How is it that all three have bad circuits? I figured one or maybe two might suck eventually… but all three all of a sudden?

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the new lights may be driven harder than what you had before exposing the poor protection

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VERY possible if your new lights are drawing more current than the old one. Thats another reason you need a multi-meter… current draw measurement.

some single XML lights can draw up to 5.5 Amps from a healthy, low resistance cell, depending on various conditions. If the protection circuit is programmed to limit this, then thats probably whats going on here.

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Thanks DCX, that makes sense.

Sorry, Kramer - I posted those two replies before I saw your post. Thank you for the info. It is starting to sink in, and yeah, I need to get a voltage meter, like, tomorrow.

So basically, the newer XM-Ls are pulling a higher draw, tripping the protection circuit in these 18650s, while the first drop-in simply doesn’t draw enough to trip even the crappy protection circuit on these crappy 18650s? LOL. Wow.

Apparently it seems fine to couple crappy batteries with a cheap crappy XM-L drop in because that drop-in’s driver has been under-driven since I got it. And hell, I was impressed with the output of that little bastart simply because I didn’t know any better. Which means, with better batteries with higher limit protection circuits will allow my new higher-driven lights closer to their potential? Well then, I can’t wait to see the performance of these new lights on some better cells. :slight_smile: I kinda get to see it on high for a few seconds. But I guess until I get a voltage meter and some better 18650s, I will be forced to use the new lights on medium or low…

Does that sound about right?

10

Maybe the tiny lithium polymer cell hidden inside of your 18650 case is fully discharging very quickly?

:stuck_out_tongue:

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Well, two of the UF Reds came wrapped together, so I am assuming those are the ones tripping out from the higher draw. I haven’t taken any of the cells apart, nor do I think I wanna. One of the three seems to be allowing the higher draw at this point, at least on the SK98. Man, these Reds suck, and it took me finally getting some good properly-driven XM-Ls to find out.

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Yes

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One more note, maybe more for other newbs than you guys - The XM-L T6 drop-in( i guess) that came with my “800lm XM-L T6 5-mode UltraFire WF-502b” I bought on Amazon for $16 bucks or so, the one I have now discovered is severely under-driven, has been impressing me since I got it a few weeks ago. Just compared it with the one decent UF Red 18650 that isn’t limiting out in my SolarFire L2 with the new Manafont UltraFire XM-L T6 that apparently is hungry for a higher draw, and it is ridiculous how much better a properly driven XM-L performs over an under-driven one. Also notable is the fairly ugly yellowish tint coming from the drop-in I’ve gotten used to, as opposed to the brilliant CW tint of the new drop-in.

Lesson learned. The UltraFire Red 18650 “3000mAh” batteries are, from cell-to-cell, unreliable and inconsistent performers at best. And higher-quality drop-ins like to be driven a bit harder to get closer to the potential of the emitter.

Whew. Thanks for the help everyone.

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Good batteries are like dating one of these girls

Or

One of these girls

.. you decide

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Glad you got it sorted out. I bought a SunRay R5-S with XML and it came with one of the red UFs. Did the same thing. But it wouldn’t do it if I ran blue UF 2400s.

Vendor supplied a black UF4000 and it did the same thing. Swap the XML and either UF battery to a SF host and it runs fine. Lesson: Sometimes the host resistance can be an issue also.

I’m not having any problems using the red or black UFs with other drop-ins, so if yours charge and discharge correctly they may be OK with lesser modules.

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Do you have an unprotected 18650 handy? Who assembled the head ? Re-assemble the drop-in assembly. The spring can sometimes be a point of failure. Its a matter of a 1mm or 2 and intermittent on/off, and flicker is the result.
Give both a double check

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That makes perfect sense!

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Boaz, yes, that does make perfect sense. I want the good batteries!

Gotta Zoom: One of my UF reds works fine with both of my drop-ins and the SK98. Until I get a voltage meter, I won’t have any hard facts, but I think those other two came together and just have finicky protection circuits. They both work fine with my first drop-in that is apparently under-driven, because I can even tell, now that I have something to compare to, that it’s not as bright as it should be. Just means I can swap the driver on that drop-in at some point and improve performance drastically - if I have a good supply of good 18650s. I am sure we can end up with “ok” UF reds. Because I have one. How long it will last, I have no idea. And, it’s one out of three.

Dark Side: I don’t have any other 18650s. The new MF UF XM-L T6 3-mode was assembled in China, but I took it apart and reassembled when I unpackaged it. I would checks springs and suck, but I’m not getting flickering from that module or the SK98 - they just shut off. Good info though, I appreciate it. I’m sure it will come in handy in the future.

Do these UF red batteries have memory? Is there a chance I set the memory too high if I charged them before they discharged more? Does that even make sense? :0 Would that effect the behavior of the shut-off circuit?

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Just an update - I’ve learned a bit more since this thread, and once again I thank all of you for the participation.

As long as these UF “crap” batteries can be discharged below their draw limit where the PCB kicks in, they can be used in any of my lights. The issue with this bad pair was that they were over-charged, AND the drivers in the newer lights were trying to pull a higher current than the protection circuit would allow. The cells had the power, just didn’t allow themselves to deliver. In lower-voltage applications I imagine these cells would be fine or even safe-ish. I just don’t like the extreme variability of the UF Reds.

Anyway, I have since gotten some TrustFire flames and a pair of SolarForce V3s, and both of them smoke those UFs in terms of performance and power.

Got myself a DMM too. :slight_smile: Learned a lot on this thread. Thanks again, guys.

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Jaffo,

Glad to read that you got a DMM and better cells. Most standard 18650s are good for 2.5 - 3 A discharge rate when in top condition. Some cheapies can barely do 2A or less, which can limit output and render a protected cell vunerable to overdischarging below 3V and ruining the cell. A good rule of thumb is “3.7 V = 0, 4.2V = 100%”