Attempt to quantify far red, plus an opinion about it (feat KDLITKER XP-E2 P60)

I was curious to get a red P0 drop-in (and that full spectrum pink, but held off so far). I’d heard how “red” far red was but failed to look any further into it. So I got it, thinking it was just the nicer looking red compared to others. When it showed up, the red was really nice but I was quite disappointed with the output. It claims 280 lumens and 1.5A but it looks like just a few lumens and measured around 5 lumens in my Texas Ace lumen tube. Then I read more about it and it’s barely in the visible spectrum. How visible might vary from person to person, and it probably varies from device to device in terms of cameras, lux meters, etc picking it up which is probably why the lumen tube roughly matched what I was seeing.

So I decided to do a comparo with my other red light, a Convoy M21A B35AM 3500K with a red slip-on filter. And I used my phone camera (which, I’ve no idea how sensitive it is to far red, but it roughly matched how things look to my eye) and a device which can see farther into infrared, like 800-900nm. I did not attempt to lock exposure. Both beams are always there so you can see the relative difference. And the IR-capable device can’t be set to a fixed exposure anyway. I cycled through the 5 levels on the Convoy to see how bright they appeared relative to the constant-level far-red drop-in. It was kind of a challenge to hold everything and record, so excuse the somewhat crummy pictures.

Far-red on the left, Convoy on level 1 (0.1%) with red filter on the right:

Far-red on the left, Convoy on level 2 (1%) with red filter on the right:

Far-red on the left, Convoy on level 4 (35%) with red filter on the right. Note the device has a circular view which is why there is heavy vignetting, it’s not the spill of the two lights ending there:

To my naked eye, the far red looks closest to level 2, but really kind of between 1 and 2. Both level 1 and 2 with the red filter fail to register on my lumen tube. Level 3 is ~25 lumens, then ~90 then ~190. To my non-naked eye looking through an infrared capable device the far red looks closest to level 4, which is around 90 lumens. The beam intensity isn’t the same for both though so it’s a bit harder to say. But far red is putting out a lot more energy than it looks like to the naked eye.

It’s neat, but I wouldn’t get it again. It’s using a lot of power to make hardly any visible light. The Convoy on level 4/35% is pushing around 5W, the far red is like 4.5W yet it looks more like the 0.1% Convoy level. I’d probably have gone with photo red if I’d known this at the time. There’s no far-red filter for incan lights that I’m aware of, but I feel like if there were, a real P60 incan and a filter like that would make about the same amount of red light and run for the same amount of time, so this seems like a really inefficient way to make visible red light.

Yup, I read another post lamenting this not so long ago, possibly @Lightbringer. I think it’s good to have options so everyone can choose what they want, but what you are saying about luminous efficiency is technically correct.

These monochromatic red LEDs give me weird feelings, like the shadows are super harsh or something.

I think the next red light I’ll own will have a XEG PC red LED in it to provide a broader spectrum (similar to your filtered light). Just need to pull my finger out and get Claude to design me some 16mm MCPCBs that fit the weird footprint of XEG…

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Yeah, once I got it and was disappointed in how dim it is, I noticed several such posts about it. Unfortunately I didn’t look this closely before buying. However, I felt like I can help quantify the non-visible output from it. That it is in fact putting out a lot of IR light.

730nm is indeed very long wavelength.

Good news is that as the XP-E2 is a 3535 footprint, you can swap it for a different LED, if you were so inclined, Kaidomain has 660nm and 620nm options.

I had a similar impression about the low measurable lumens of 730nm Red

otoh, it is supposed to have deeper penetration through body tissues, so can be useful for red light therapy (google that to learn more about non visible uses of red light).

here is an example of a product with a combination of red frequencies, 660 and 850nm:

red light therapy pad

and an article about red light from sunlight and how easily its 850nm component penetrates the body and helps our mitochondria generate ATP

when using a red light directed at the body, dont use any output that gets the light hot to touch, stay at outputs that dont generate excess heat in the light, and that dont feel hot on the body.

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That’s a super interesting observation! I noticed that when I use very low levels of light at night, even a decent amount of white light leaves distant or detailed objects looking blurry, while even a much smaller amount of 660nm red light makes the same object’s boundary completely crystal-clear. I don’t get the same from other monochrome LEDs, and suspect it’s down to the long wavelength being refracted less and better-focused by the human eye.

Have you ever seen a distant blue light that you know is a pinpoint source, but cannot get your eyes to focus it down to a pinpoint no matter what? It’s the opposite phenomenon at play.

In general, lumens is the wrong unit to use for quantifying monochromatic light because it gives absolutely no indication about the true power. And whenever you see a lumen rating for a monochromatic light source, you can rest assured that it will be wrong. The industry standard is to use mW to quantify radiometric output.

It should not be surprising how dim 730nm appears to the human eye–the black (resp. green) curve here indicates the relative brightness of every wavelength under normal (resp. dark-adapted) vision. 730nm is at least an order of magnitude dimmer than 660nm.

You can try and see how quickly it melts through black electrical tape. I’ve built a 850nm IR light that barely looks like it’s on but will instantly deform a piece of tape.

interesting metric
have you tested the temperature of the tape over the lens?

I tested black electrical tape on my KR1AA w 5000K XHP50.3 @ 500 lm and it deforms quickly.. My IR thermometer reads the tape at 140C after less than 10 sec

I then tested my 730nm Red Light @ 6 lm and got no deformation.. the tape reached 55C after less than 10 sec

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Sadly I don’t have a reliable thermometer to actually get a numerical reading.

What LED/driver are you using for 730nm red? (I want to try 730nm LED but don’t know where to get it.) I was able to deform tape instantly with Convoy’s SST10-IR 850nm emitter (I eyeball it at less than 0.01 lumens) and the 1.5Vx1.5A driver.

the LED came from Kaidomain, I put it in a Thrunite T10T… and run it on Eneloop.. on LiIon it gets too hot.. its not my favorite driver

I like to use Anduril lights for red light mods.. I have put XP-E2 and or SST-20 660nm in a TS10SG and also in a Sofirn SC21 Pro.. when they were available. Red also works in the RRT-01. I have also put 660nm red into the Wurkkos Wk03, Olight i3e, and Skilhunt E3a. (the XP-E2 is easier to work with than SST20, which is actually a 3030 but can fit on a 3535 mcpcb with a bit of fiddling)

I also tested 620nm XP-E2 in the T10T:

I like 660nm XP-E2 best.. I mostly use them for sore muscles.. not so much for illumination

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Oh nice! XP-E(2) from Cree essentially corresponds to SST-10 from Luminus, so your 730nm LED should have around the same power handling as Convoy’s 850nm IR. I had a T10 a long time ago and remember the driver being pretty weak. Maybe putting it in a T3 with the standard 660nm driver could be an option.

Conveniently, Anduril drivers are usually also linear/FET, which handles the low Vf with no problems, at the expense of efficiency. The regular Convoy T3 white light driver does not tolerate the lower Vf and overheats immediately.

I recently built a SST20-DR triple with Convoy’s 5A buck driver; it works pretty well other than premature stepdown (which is not an issue with driving white LEDs). Fortunately, I do not experience sore muscles very often and built it mostly for fun. It should also be very useful for outdoor illumination in hot, buggy summer nights.

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