Back to buying flashlights but disapointed

Eduardo · 2018-09-16T19:01:03.000Z

Tony Cape:

I had the same problem with batteries.Here in South Africa the branded cells are around 4 to 5 times the price .Then I discovered that Vape shops have all the best high amp 18650 freely available and always at the right price.

Here vapes are not allowed and are sold by obscure private sellers, for very high prices. They mostly sell those 8800 mAh fakes.
Also notebook third party replacement batteries cost around 100 dollars here, so almost no one changes the batteries, using the notebook from the mains.
Best regards and thanks all.

Enderman · 2018-09-16T20:16:33.000Z

1) Yes there are lots of li-ion batteries, just as with anything else in life. You pick the one you want based on size or capacity.

2) Only protected ones, plenty of unprotected ones are 18x65, and 90% of batteries are unprotected so just buy the right ones.

3) Very few flashlights require proprietary batteries. If they don’t there’s no reason you can’t use other cells that aren’t from that same brand. Just do some research and find out what the best ones are.

4) That’s because manufacturers have been pushing lumens higher and higher. If you want something that lasts longer then just use high or medium and not turbo, or get a flashlight with lower turbo output.

5) Obviously a huge LED that produces tons of lumens uses lots of power. They are still far more efficient than previous LEDs.

6) Very few flashlights use special battery packs, those are usually just super high output flashlights that cost like half a grand. If you don’t want a proprietary battery pack then simply don’t buy those flashlights.

Eduardo · 2018-09-16T22:19:02.000Z

Sorry, but all AA, AAA batteries, 16 gauge wire, 1 inch pipe, 16 inches pieces of wood are equal in their specification. Steels AISI 410, 440C, API 5L grade B pipe all conform to a specification.This is a main reason to the existence of ANSI, ASTM, ISO and all standard associations.
I was thinking the LiIon batteries were headed to become a standard power source for electric devices during the time I stayed absent from the flashlight scene.
I´ve just found 1 minute ago that the “vapers” seem to use only flat top 18650s. Didn´t find out for sure!!! And lots of people ask how to solder a blob on flat tops, what is pathetic. Didn´t get the reason, but this kind of thing leads to confusion and avoids the maintenance of a standard.
I seems even the flashlight hobby forum seems to be decreasing. Very sorry.
Best Regards
Eduardo

BlueSwordM · 2018-09-16T22:34:29.000Z

Well no.

Not all AA cells and AAA cells are created equal. Trying to pull 1A from an NiMH AA is easy peasy, while pulling 1A with an AA alkaline results in a huge voltage drop, and subsequently, power loss. Meaning not all cells are created equal.

And of course not all battery types are created equal!

You have very high capacity, low-medium power, and medium cycle life, like the NCR18650GA.

You have very high capacity, low power, high cycle life, like the NCR18650B.

You have high capacity, medium-high power, like the Samsung 30Q.

You have medium capacity, high power, like the Samsung 25R.

You have low capacity, very high power, like the Samsung 20S.

They are all of the same size, and are made for different applications.

I don’t want to come across as condescending, but I think the reason you aren’t too happy is that you can’t easily get good lithium ion cells at good prices, huh?

The situation regarding shipments in Brazil is very unlucky IMO.

Enderman · 2018-09-16T22:38:16.000Z

Eduardo:

Sorry, but all AA, AAA batteries, 16 gauge wire, 1 inch pipe, 16 inches pieces of wood are equal in their specification. Steels AISI 410, 440C, API 5L grade B pipe all conform to a specification.This is a main reason to the existence of ANSI, ASTM, ISO and all standard associations.
I was thinking the LiIon batteries were headed to become a standard power source for electric devices during the time I stayed absent from the flashlight scene.
I´ve just found 1 minute ago that the “vapers” seem to use only flat top 18650s. Didn´t find out for sure!!! And lots of people ask how to solder a blob on flat tops, what is pathetic. Didn´t get the reason, but this kind of thing leads to confusion and avoids the maintenance of a standard.
I seems even the flashlight hobby forum seems to be decreasing. Very sorry.
Best Regards
Eduardo

This is far from true.
You can find plenty of variation in measurements even if they are “standard”.
For example wire gauge will vary completely depending on how good or cheap the brand is, even though they all are supposed to follow a standard.

Knowing the difference between a flat and button top battery is not rocket science. That is not part of the li-ion battery standard.
If learning a bit about a hobby is too difficult, then it probably shouldn’t be your hobby.
The amount of traffic to BLF has been continuously increasing over the years btw.

Pete7874 · 2018-09-16T22:42:29.000Z

many of 18650 have diameter larger than 18 and length of 70 mm. !!

I’m not aware of any 18650 cells that are longer than 70mm, but some protected ones probably come close to it.

Ronin42 · 2018-09-16T23:48:07.000Z

Consider buying used HP and IBM laptop battery packs. lots of good NCR cells in there. check the 18650 battery thread for specifics.

I ended up with more good 18650 A 2900mAh then I can use.

I have 6 used SF18650GR in great shape I sell you for $2 ea plus shipping.

Tony_Cape · 2018-09-17T07:16:33.000Z

Eduardo:

I´ve just found 1 minute ago that the “vapers” seem to use only flat top 18650s. Didn´t find out for sure!!! And lots of people ask how to solder a blob on flat tops, what is pathetic.

You are correct vapers only use flat tops but always high drain very good cells for our needs.The solder blob is an easy solution to convert flat tops works well tried and tested many times over.

Agro · 2018-09-17T07:45:14.000Z

Enderman:

Knowing the difference between a flat and button top battery is not rocket science. That is not part of the li-ion battery standard.
If learning a bit about a hobby is too difficult, then it probably shouldn’t be your hobby.

There is a lot of needless mess when it comes to battery formats. Flashlight manufacturers and battery rewrappers deserve all the blame.
Hobby is something that’s supposed to be fun. Asking around “Does battery X work with product Y?” is not fun. Having to buy several sets of similar batteries to work around compatibility issues is not fun.
Learning which battery is larger (or smaller) than average is not fun either.

zak.wilson · 2018-09-17T07:56:35.000Z

There’s a standard for 18650: it’s 18x65mm. Adding button tops and protection circuits that change the length is a deviation from the standard. Fortunately, most people who deviate from the standard do so in the same way, so one protected 18650 is usually interchangeable with another unless the light’s power requirements are very high.

Enderman · 2018-09-17T14:06:14.000Z

Agro:

There is a lot of needless mess when it comes to battery formats. Flashlight manufacturers and battery rewrappers deserve all the blame.
Hobby is something that’s supposed to be fun. Asking around “Does battery X work with product Y?” is not fun. Having to buy several sets of similar batteries to work around compatibility issues is not fun.
Learning which battery is larger (or smaller) than average is not fun either.

This “needless mess” you speak of happens with literally anything in life, as with that cable example I posted earlier.
Research and learning is part of every hobby.
If you don’t have the time or patience to find research fun, then this is probably not the hobby for you.

PS- if you buy a good battery that is 18mm diameter x 65mm long and unprotected it will literally work in every 18650 flashlight.
I don’t know what crappy batteries you’re talking about, but all the high quality LG, samsung, sanyo, etc. cells all follow standard.
If someone buys some cheap chinese batteries and then finds out they don’t fit, that’s their fault for being cheap instead of getting a high quality option.

Eduardo · 2018-09-17T14:35:24.000Z

BlueSwordM:

…
I don’t want to come across as condescending, but I think the reason you aren’t too happy is that you can’t easily get good lithium ion cells at good prices, huh?

The situation regarding shipments in Brazil is very unlucky IMO.

.

Yeah, this is the main reason these things are difficult for me here. There are fakes or extremely expensive branded ones.

Anyways I´m very happy with the 3 new flashlights I´ve just bought: beautiful EC4S that’s working well with old batteries, EA42 which is much uglier than it seems on pictures but a joy to use with Eneloops and a lovely Utorch UT-01 that has received the “paper clip ring” trick (made of a key ring) to accept long protected old 14500s.

Agro · 2018-09-17T14:45:51.000Z

Enderman:

Agro:

There is a lot of needless mess when it comes to battery formats. Flashlight manufacturers and battery rewrappers deserve all the blame.
Hobby is something that’s supposed to be fun. Asking around “Does battery X work with product Y?” is not fun. Having to buy several sets of similar batteries to work around compatibility issues is not fun.
Learning which battery is larger (or smaller) than average is not fun either.

This “needless mess” you speak of happens with literally anything in life, as with that cable example I posted earlier.
Research and learning is part of every hobby.
If you don’t have the time or patience to find research fun, then this is probably not the hobby for you.

PS- if you buy a good battery that is 18mm diameter x 65mm long and unprotected it will literally work in every 18650 flashlight.
I don’t know what crappy batteries you’re talking about, but all the high quality LG, samsung, sanyo, etc. cells all follow standard.
If someone buys some cheap chinese batteries and then finds out they don’t fit, that’s their fault for being cheap instead of getting a high quality option.

For example my Samsung 35E doesn’t work with BLF Q8, Folomov EDC-C4, Haikelite MT09R, Astrolux MF-02. Because they all require button top.
OTOH button top Lumintop LM34C works at least with Folomov (haven’t checked with any other of those), but doesn’t work with Emisars.

There are no brand 26650 cells, so one can’t follow your advice. And it happens that the best cell about this size is actually slightly larger than standard and doesn’t fit all lights, regardless if you buy with button or without.

21700 is becoming another standard. And buyers realize that the extra 5 mm in length means that not all chargers can work with them.
There’s 20700 also which largely overlaps with 21700, but is compatible only one way. Some manufacturers go with 20700, some 21700….this is true both with cell and light manufacturers.

I haven’t yet seen “Protected 21700”. It will be interesting when they arrive…

I’d like to note that I wouldn’t use Samsung 35E in Emisar D4 anyway though - because its medium discharge construction is not a good match for this light. But this incompatibility is actually a part of the fun - you tweak component selection to get the best results. Not to work around needless limitations.

I love doing research. But research of intrinsic properties like capacity, internal resistance, low temperature performance, cycle life etc.
Not of “cell X is .1 mm too wide to fit light Y”.

zak.wilson · 2018-09-17T17:28:07.000Z

Enderman:

PS- if you buy a good battery that is 18mm diameter x 65mm long and unprotected it will literally work in every 18650 flashlight.

No, it won’t. Most Nitecore lights, for example require button tops to make contact. With creative use of rare earth magnets as spacers, it’s usually possible to get it to work.

Agro:

I haven’t yet seen “Protected 21700”. It will be interesting when they arrive…

Acebeam sells one.

joechina · 2018-09-20T12:24:56.000Z

The Maker U22 has a protected 21700 from Manker 17,3Wh (4800mAh).
74,6mm long

Eduardo · 2018-09-20T14:27:03.000Z

Well, thanks to all who posted their opinions.
My conclusion is that after some 4 years, there´s nothing 4 years better than my old Skyray King with 3 XML T6 or a Simple T6 Convoy S2 or a Nitecore EC25 or a simple T6 zoom or my E41.
The current champions put out 4000, 10000 lumens, but only for a few minutes.
A good (bad) example is Concept 2. Extremely beautiful but with a price far from what most consumers would pay for it and with welded not replaceable batteries.
Thanks to all.

Jack_Kellar · 2018-09-20T16:13:37.000Z

I’m not disappointed in the flashlight market, quite the contrary. What I am disappointed in is how bloody HARD it is to import all kinds of batteries, not even restricted to li-ions. It’s R$15 per 30Q cell on average (not bad), and R$240 for shipping anywhere you look on Ali. That’s like a third of a minimum wage paycheck.

Guess who’s immediately going to start hunting for old laptop batteries?

Eduardo · 2018-09-20T20:54:12.000Z

Jack Kellar:

I’m not disappointed in the flashlight market, quite the contrary. What I am disappointed in is how bloody HARD it is to import all kinds of batteries, not even restricted to li-ions. It’s R$15 per 30Q cell on average (not bad), and R$240 for shipping anywhere you look on Ali. That’s like a third of a minimum wage paycheck.

Guess who’s immediately going to start hunting for old laptop batteries?

Why do you say R$ ? Do you live in Brasil? I understand that LiIons can´t be shipped anymore. Am I wrong? I´ve never tried buying cells anymore, because some of my items took 200 days to arrive. Incredibly an EA42 took 16 days from Ali to my home, by “Ali standard shipping” that was sent by Sweden Post and cost 4 US$.
I don´t know if new notebooks still use 18650s. My Sony SB25 whose battery failed (and I opened it) had 3 rectangular flat cells like mobile phones.

zak.wilson · 2018-09-20T21:16:20.000Z

Eduardo:

Well, thanks to all who posted their opinions.
My conclusion is that after some 4 years, there´s nothing 4 years better than my old Skyray King with 3 XML T6 or a Simple T6 Convoy S2 or a Nitecore EC25 or a simple T6 zoom or my E41.

I disagree. A lot has happened since then, some of it pretty compelling. An increase in sustainable output having a major impact on what flashlights in given size categories are useful for is not one of those things. Because of how human vision works, it takes about four times as much output to look twice as bright, so while we’ve definitely had improvements in efficiency, they don’t have an overwhelming impact on utility. Instead, here are some things that do, at least for some of us:

There are quite a few high-CRI production lights. A 20+ point jump in CRI does a whole lot more for helping you see clearly than a 20% increase in output.
High-CRI doesn’t mean a huge efficiency drop anymore. The Nichia 219C is quite a bit more efficient than the old 219B (though not quite as pretty) and has found its way into a fair number of factory lights. Zebralight is using 90 CRI Cree XHP50.2s. Hobbyists have started using the 90 CRI Samsung LH351D and usually see no meaningful loss of output when swapping from a Cree XP-L or XM-L2.
User interfaces have come a long way, and sophisticated open-source firmwares written by community members are being used in production lights from Emisar, Astrolux, Lumintop, Haikelite, Thorfire, and Sofirn.
Lights that can provide full output on low batteries are much more common now.
Many lights offer USB charging. A few people hate it, but it helps lower the barrier to entry.
Color temperatures other than 6500-7000K are much more common.

Jack_Kellar · 2018-09-21T10:42:10.000Z

Eduardo:

Why do you say R$ ? Do you live in Brasil? I understand that LiIons can´t be shipped anymore. Am I wrong? I´ve never tried buying cells anymore, because some of my items took 200 days to arrive. Incredibly an EA42 took 16 days from Ali to my home, by “Ali standard shipping” that was sent by Sweden Post and cost 4 US$.
I don´t know if new notebooks still use 18650s. My Sony SB25 whose battery failed (and I opened it) had 3 rectangular flat cells like mobile phones.

It’s easy to change the shipping location and currency to check if a country can get it and at what cost; after all, Brazilians aren’t the only ones in this leaky boat.

“I understand that LiIons can´t be shipped anymore.” That’s a misconception: you can import them, but under extremely strict conditions that push the price sky-frickin’-high. No free or low-cost shipping for cells unless you get a charger to go with them.

Failing laptops, there are also power tools like portable screwdrivers. It’s a matter of trying