Budget Knife Quality Question.

EDC Gear for Flashlight Carriers
1

Quick question, and I’ll try to phrase it non-trolly. Does anyone verify the steel in these knives or EDC and then resharpen them? I’m all for budget, but after owning a legit VG-10 blade I’ve found there’s a huge difference in edge retention and ease of sharpening when compared to some of the real Gerbers and CRKTs I own that use an indeterminate “400 grade steel.” And do the ones that claim to have a nice steel actually do? Or is it like Chinese lumens?

I’ll eventually need a nice fixed blade, and I’d like to hear from someone who has owned nicer knives to tell me my instinct is wrong, that I can save money and get a knife that will last me for many years.

I currently EDC a leatherman Wave and a Spyderco Endura 4 and I can tell you the quality is worth it.

But on the other hand I purchased one of those imported Indian Budk Kukri blades from Amazon for about $20 and was very happy. It may not be a show piece, but the steel is top notch (in terms of usefulness) and it can take a ton of abuse.

2

If you are asking about 8Cr13MoV, well, it is not my favourite steel but it is cheap. I like my knives scary-sharp and for this it is not a good steel as the edge won’t last. That fine edge goes very quickly. But it is an okay utility steel if heat-treated well, for those jobs where a toothy edge is good enough.

3

8Cr13Mov is fine for me as I sharpen my knives pretty often, although I would recommend 154CM or S30V (more difficult to sharp but better edge retention). In my opinion just get something from Spyderco budget line (Persistence, Tenacious) or cheaper Kershaw knives and you’ll be fine as the difference in price is not drastic compared to Chinese brands.

4

Cool, thanks for the insights so far. It seems to be about what I thought. I guess a more specific question though is, can advertised steel “types” be trusted? If you see a knife advertised as “8Cr13MoV” is there a good chance it will be that type. I mean I understand there will always be some retailers or brands you can not trust, but generally speaking? Yesterday I received Meritlines email, and it advertised VG-10 kitchen knives.

http://www.meritline.com/7-damascus-chopping-knives-kitchen-knife—-p-105718.aspx

I guess I’m under the impression advertised steel types are like lumens. Something thats designed to catch your eye, but unless you have the proper equipment it’s hard to test.

5

With Spyderco, Benchmade, Kershaw, you can’t go wrong. As long as I can buy a Kershaw (sure, made in china) for 20$, I will never buy a chinese brand for 10-12$. This is of course just my opinion. :slight_smile:

6

I think you can trust brands like Sanrenmu and Enlan who have OEM for western brands. These are premium brands in China. I believe Sanrenmu did make some knives for Spyderco (I don’t know which; maybe some of their Byrd line?). Böker rebrand some SRM and Enlan for their Magnum range.

Navy and Ganzo, I have read about QC issues. Of course there are others, fakes and mystery steel.

7

I own a Spyderco Endura 4 and I’m very very happy with the purchase.

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Before getting one, I always thought that the Spydercos looked kind of weird, but then I ended up getting two of the “Native” ones, which have more “traditional” type blades with lockbacks. The one I like the best is fortunately or unfortunately a pink one :slight_smile: that I have.

I’ve been on the lookout for a black Native 5 for awhile, but they are expensive (for me).

I also really like the build quality of Kershaws. I only have one, one of the smaller lockbacks (In case you haven’t noticed, I like lockbacks :)!)

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I am looking forward to the Spyderco Native slipit. It is a lovely knife pattern. I hope they will have a pink handle option just like the Squeak!

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Sanrenmu, Enlan, and Ganzo are all fine Chinese brands. Like Chloe said, they actually produce many of the knives sold by Spyderco, Gerber, Kershaw, etc... and have, in the last few years, started selling under their own brand and models. Many look exactly the same as their western counterparts because they actually ARE the same knives off the same assembly lines. You'd surprised how many Western knives everyone respects and loves are really made by SRM, Enlan and Ganzo.

11

When I first got into these China made knives, I took a few SRs, Navys, Gerbers, & Spydercos and swiped them 10 times on a metal file. They all do pretty well after inspecting them under a magnifying glass. This wasnt some precision test. You can tell real quick the properties of the metal when you sharpen them. It's really one's preference on how hard you like the steel to be. Too hard, it almost becomes brittle and chips easily and also a bitch to sharpen. Too soft and it doesn't hold an edge cutting a tomato.

I found a few of my SRs and Navy knives were softer than others but to remeady that, i reshaped it and increased the bevel angle to an additional 5 degrees. It helps.

12

8Cr13MoV is a Chinese steel and although good for what it is, it is also inexpensive. It is a relatively soft steel that does not hold an edge for very long and it will rust fairly easily. A Chinese knife claimed to be 8Cr13MoV probably is.

VG-10 is a very good quality Japanese steel and quite a bit more expensive. It is stainless, rust resistant and holds an edge well. VG-10 steel is not exported from Japan as bar stock or in bulk. Almost all VG-10 knives are manufactured in Japan. Spyderco's VG-10 blades are marked with either "Seki-City" or "Japan". A Chinese knife claimed to be VG-10 probably isn't.

The one linked to does not appear to be stamped with any marks, and I've never seen any real VG-10 blade described as "Damascus", much less one that has a fake damascus pattern applied to it. I very much doubt that this blade is either VG-10 or genuine damascus steel.

To answer your question directly, there is no simple answer. I think budget knives can be trusted to be as claimed provided that only inexpensive lower-end steels are being claimed. There is no advantage in claiming to use one of these steels. But when a blade is supposed to be VG-10 or S30V or some other higher quality steel you may want to question it, especially if the brand/manufacturer is unfamiliar to you or they are not generally known to use such a steel.

13

There is often the problem that manufacturers often label in a “near enough” fashion.

You’ll notice that the Enlan EL-01 sold by Boker in their Magnum range is advertised as 440 steel, even though the manufacturer say it’s 8Cr13MoV. Likewise Schrade call the 9Cr13MoV steel in the EL-08 they sell under their own brand 440C.

Both lack about 5% chromium to actually be the steels their American resellers claim.

On the other hand, if you buy a Chinese knife advertised as 440C, then it’s probably 9Cr18Mo, or 9Cr18MoV. Likewise Chinese D2 is probably Cr12Mo1V1, unless they’re lying and it’s just 440C. Apparently a simple test for D2 is to leave some mustard or another acidic product on the blade for several hours, if it patinas then it’s D2, if it doesn’t then it’s a true stainless like 440C. I don’t know if Cr12 acts the same way though.

Likewise Tekut use 7Cr17MoV, which is actually quite close to 440B steel, though of course the 440 range don’t include vanadium.

I own a Navy K631, and a Endura 4, and I have to say that if you neglect the difference between G10 and FRN (orange on mine) they feel very similar in the hand. If anything, with full steel liners, the Navy feels more solid. No blade play, solid lock up. It’s a good knife. I haven’t had to sharpen the VG-10, but the K631 takes a very good cutting edge, and about three months after sharpening it it still shaves hair off my arm. Of course I’m not a hard user, so your mileage may vary.

In terms of my favourite Chinese steels, I’d say my favourite is 9Cr13MoV, then 440C, then 8Cr13MoV.

As said already, in the budget ranges the steel description is probably accurate (provided you allow for the “near enough” factor) but on the more upmarket knives you should be a little careful. If nothing else you can check cutting tests on YouTube. For example there is a comparison between the Kevin John Hinderer replica and the Wild Boar Hinderer replica where the KJ cuts nearly five times more before dulling, suggesting that the claim of S35VN is accurate while the claim of D2 probably isn’t.

14

It’s hard to make fine distinctions between performance levels of various different steel chemistries without knowing the heat-treat, if any, that was employed.

I heat-treat a lot of different steels, and it is somewhat comical to me that it is fairly easy to improve the edge qualities of any of these knives just by putting them through a basic, but correct, heat-treat cycle.

Based on that, I have to assume that these blades are cut from sheet steel that is purchased from a local supplier, and assembled into knives and shipped out in “as is” condition…in other words, with no heat treatment.

Heat treating takes time and adds to the cost, but without at least making some effort to provide a a half decent level of heat treatment on the blades, there would be very little noticeable difference in cutting performance based on minor changes in the steel chemistry.

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That would actually be quite an interesting discussion. Can you tell us what knives you’ve heat treated and what differences it made?

16

If you want a razor sharp yet very inexpensive knife, try a mora mg. Carbon steel, fixed blade,
delivered to your mailbox $15 on ebay. Just a few strokes on some crock sticks and it will shave
hair easily.

17

Over the years, 1000s of blades, so a list would be somewhat cumbersome…:slight_smile:

Heat-treatment is an essential part of the artistry of working in steel…ie, “artistry”, in that you can create very different performance qualities in the finished product depending on what you want the steel to do, with different heat-treat specs.

If there is no heat-treat, or it’s not done correctly, or some other production error, it doesn’t matter what the steel chemistry is.

The main difference is that if a blade is left in an untreated state, like the Chinese knives I have seen, although they will be easier for an inexperienced user to sharpen, the fine cutting edge will roll over with very little pressure at the microscopic level, like if cutting a knot, or just impacting a wooden cutting board, for example.

This type of dulling is different from dulling caused by wear, in that the knife edge will go dull very quickly, possibly with just a few cuts, so if you want a durable sharp edge, the edge of the blade needs to be hard enough to support itself, and that requires some minimal attempt at heat-treatment.

If you want to use your knife as a pry bar for some reason, (that reason escapes me), but if the entire blade is hard, it will snap easily, so the ideal knife would have a hard cutting edge backed up by a somewhat softer blade…like a Samurai sword, and that’s what heat-treatment does.

If you don’t need to get the absolute most performance out of an alloy, which is not necessary for a knife blade, or if not trying to do something too esoteric, that basic heat-treat process is easy to do, but it does add a few more steps to the manufacturing process, and that would add a little bit of cost, so that is mostly beyond the expectation for low-end factory knives. When knife makers put out a better product, they tend to want to charge more money for it.

These $15 knives are fine for what they cost, but expectations have to be realistic.

18

Thanks guys for all the discussion- this is the sort of thing I was looking for.

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Thanks Top Cat.

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You’re welcome. Muad’ Dib!