When you say short runtime, is that due to the capacity of the batteries or because of the time it takes for the thermal kickdown to occur?
Yeah. I have a total soft spot for HID lights. I guess I’m asking all of these questions because I’m trying to convince myself to buy this and relieve this itch of mine, but I don’t want to be completely disappointed when I do it.
I bought a spare battery carrier and loaded it with identical batteries.
I can tell you that I loved the FF5. If this one is even slightly more powerful that’ll still be cool. But it’s my only HID. I only have LEDs and LEPs
Using quality high drainage batteries such as Vapcell T42, Molicel P42A or even better P45B or Samsung 40T you get significant increases in lumens output as with LED flashlights or in this case with HID the high drainage of the batteries does not serve to nothing?
When I heard of the FF5GTs power increase to 150W I was skeptical because I knew the FF5 was pushing the limits of its battery power supply.
The weakest link in the FF5GT is the same 4S1P 18650 battery carrier as the FF4 and FF5. I think that explains the FF5GT not reaching spec output.
The ballast needs a 14.4V nominal input and even the best high current 18650s will strain at meeting demand, while dramatically limiting capacity under continuous loads over 10A for a duration over several minutes.
Fedtro, all the cells you listed are the very best 21700 size and would be ideal, but the FF5GT is constrained to 18650 cells.
The best are Samsung 30Q, Sony VTC6, Molicel P28a, all rated near 3000mAh capacity (with 1A discharge). With a 10.5-12A load the FF5GT would need to create 150W, that would reduce these cells capacity to 2000-2200 mAH. That's working those little cells HARD.
The FF5 on high drew 7A continuous (100W/10k lumen spec) and only a very manageable 3A for its 42W low. I think it was an acceptable match at the time, but I still bought the extra battery carrier for the runtime I wanted .
the FF5GT output can be explained easily as the battery being the choke point. I think 11k lumen with 1.4Mcd is excellent performance in its own right.
Clearly this calls for a redesign for at least a 4S1P 21700 size or better a 4S2P 21700 battery pack, but that's on the FF6 wish list. With P42 Molicels it would perform beautifully. Exactly like the evolution to 21700 cells in the BLF GT94 to GT94X.
2 years ago they offered an 8 cell hardwired battery pack for the FF5 with Sanyo 18650GA cells, but was for Asian market only and discontinued due to "logistics" .
I recall about a 45 minute runtime on 42W low mode with the FF5 on Samsung 30Qs, and about 8 minutes continuous use at 100W before thermally throttling to low.
So, if the numbers fall short of claims I'm only mildly disappointed, but not really that surprised given the limited battery. Doesn't change the 10+k lumen HID goodness without breaking the bank. I look forward to hearing other users detailed firsthand impressions: Photon Master, looking at you! :)
Your comment about the battery power supply reminded me that for the FF5, someone determined that the 100w rating is actually at the bulb and is higher at the ballast by hooking it up a dedicated power supply and measuring the current when supplied 14.4 volts. At 14.4 volts and on high, he measured 125w at the pins of the head and 8.7A of draw. If the 150w rating of the GT is also at the bulb, then we’re probably looking at 187w at the pins for 13A of draw. Yeah, that would be quite a lot for 18650 cells to handle.
Spot on. 18650s are perfect for single cell EDC applications but yesteryear for multicell lumenmonsters. The whole industry seems to have embraced the 21700 as the standard for high output designs.
Nature of the HID beast, you must have a 4 series battery setup for 14.4V to the ballast. Therefore the full current load carried by each cell and the capacity being that of a single cell.
You're right 150W at the bulb would draw 185W or so from the battery. That's a 4.3C discharge load for a 3000mAh. Close to its maximum, and continuously. A real torture test.
I think the FF5GT won't disappoint despite inflated numbers, just an improved FF5...
[quote=Ocelot]
Quando ho sentito dell'aumento di potenza dell'FF5GT a 150 W, ero scettico perché sapevo che l'FF5 stava spingendo i limiti della sua alimentazione a batteria.
L'anello più debole dell'FF5GT è lo stesso portabatteria 4S1P 18650 dell'FF4 e dell'FF5. Penso che questo spieghi che la FF5GT non raggiunge l'output delle specifiche.
Il reattore necessita di un ingresso nominale di 14,4 V e anche i migliori 18650 ad alta corrente si sforzeranno per soddisfare la domanda, limitando drasticamente la capacità con carichi continui superiori a 10 A per una durata di diversi minuti.
Fedtro, tutte le celle che hai elencato hanno le migliori dimensioni 21700 e sarebbero l'ideale, ma FF5GT è vincolato a 18650 celle.
I migliori sono Samsung 30Q, Sony VTC6, Molicel P28a, tutti con una capacità di quasi 3000 mAh (con 1A di scarica). Con un carico di 10,5-12 A, l'FF5GT dovrebbe creare 150 W, il che ridurrebbe la capacità di queste celle a 2000-2200 mAh. Questo sta lavorando duramente quelle piccole cellule.
L'FF5 in alto ha assorbito 7A continui (specifiche 100W/10k lumen) e solo 3A molto gestibili per i suoi 42W in basso. Penso che all'epoca fosse una partita accettabile, ma ho comunque acquistato il portabatteria aggiuntivo per l'autonomia che volevo.
l'uscita FF5GT può essere facilmente spiegata come la batteria come punto di strozzatura. Penso che 11k lumen con 1.4Mcd siano prestazioni eccellenti di per sé.
Chiaramente questo richiede una riprogettazione per almeno una dimensione 4S1P 21700 o meglio un pacco batteria 4S2P 21700, ma questo è nella lista dei desideri di FF6. Con P42 Molicels funzionerebbe magnificamente. Esattamente come l'evoluzione a 21700 celle nel BLF GT94 in GT94X.
2 anni fa hanno offerto un pacco batteria cablato a 8 celle per l'FF5 con celle Sanyo 18650GA, ma era solo per il mercato asiatico e interrotto a causa della "logistica".
Ricordo circa 45 minuti di autonomia in modalità bassa a 42 W con l'FF5 su Samsung 30Qs e circa 8 minuti di utilizzo continuo a 100 W prima della limitazione termica al minimo.
Quindi, se i numeri non sono al di sotto delle affermazioni, sono solo leggermente deluso, ma non così sorpreso data la batteria limitata. Non cambia la bontà HID di 10+k lumen senza spendere troppo. Non vedo l'ora di sentire impressioni di prima mano dettagliate da altri utenti: Photon Master, ti sto guardando! :)
[/Citazione]
I have 12 new Samsung 20S, what do you think? I believe I'll use these with a spare battery pack to extend the range.
Haha I just took this thing outside and the beam is ridiculous. Even from 50 feet away the beam was wide enough to light up a giant tree. Btw for anyone who hasn’t had one of these, there’s a lot of spill. Like 160 degrees I bet. If there is a light that is the complete opposite of an LEP this is it
Fedtro,
Ciao amico! Penso che il Samsung 20S sia un'eccellente cella di potenza ad alta corrente, con una capacità di corrente doppia (30 A continua) del 30Q, che è una cella di runtime di energia. I tempi di autonomia saranno più brevi con il 20S ma dovresti ottenere il miglior rendimento elevato con loro. Il 30Q ha un forte abbassamento di tensione e una capacità ridotta quando viene portato ai suoi limiti di corrente continua che l'FF5GT richiede in modalità alta e più adatto solo per la modalità bassa di 50 W. Non vedo l'ora della tua esperienza dettagliata quando avrai la tua luce. buona fortuna!
hello my friend! I think the Samsung 20S is an excellent high current power cell, with twice the current (30A continuous) capacity of the 30Q, which is an energy runtime cell. Runtimes will be shorter with the 20S but you should achieve the best high output with them. The 30Q has severe voltage sag and short capacity when driven to its continuous current limits which the FF5GT demands on high and best suited for 50W low mode only. I look forward to your detailed experience when you get your light. best of luck!
Photon Master,
I'm eager to hear more details about your impressions, even some beamshots if you could. Your " opposite of a LEP " description is spot on. My FF5 first impression was such a WIDE beam, with intensity! I'm curious about your runtimes, IIRC excellent choice with Molicel P28a. Have a blast on Mars!
a public service announcement....
Because of using a series of unprotected cells in the FF5GT it is critical for safety and performance to start out with new cells that are always charged and used as a group together.
Having balanced cells is crucial.
Don't mix cells with other lights and periodically check the individual cell voltages after discharge to make sure they are close to each other. The FF5GT plastic battery carrier has a low voltage cutoff circuit in it which shuts the light off.
Also, it is very important to allow a 30-60 sec (or more) cooldown after powering off the light before turning it on again to maintain best longevity. Turning it back on too soon while the gases in the bulb are still hot causes serious wear on the ballast electronics, a condition called "hot restrike" and should be avoided.
The bulb itself is rated for a few thousand hours of operation and is surprisingly rugged. Since there is no fragile filament to break HIDs are the design of choice for military crew serviced heavy weapons; they are impervious to recoil.
A word of warning, the FF5/FF5GT bulb seems not to have a UV shield capsule on it so it's good practice to NEVER shine the beam directly in anyone's eyes or a direct (mirror) reflection.
Just thought I'd share what I learned from using my FF5, which is still humming along after 2 years with no failures.
I really want to hear from the others about their FF5GT experience when they get their lights.
Be safe, have FUN!
Sure! So is the Molicel P28a the absolute best cell for the FF5 GT? I need to figure that out and buy 8 of them to replace my 30Qs
PhotonMaster,
I strongly recommend the Molicel P28a for the FF5GT. It is a power high current cell, rated to 35A continuous but handles 20-25A like a champ, better than the Sony VTC5 with much more capacity. The 12A continous load of the FF5GT on high mode should be no problem.
Here is its datasheet, look how flat the high current discharge curves are:
https://www.molicel.com/wp-content/uploads/INR18650P28A-V1-80093.pdf
The P28a is what the P42a is to 21700s: the Goldilocks of high current with runtime capacity.
The reviews of the P28a are stellar. Mooch, who does nothing but torture test cells, considers the Molicel "simply the best 18650 there is". He rated the P28a at 75W per cell!
Go for 8 of them. Have fun!
Sweet thanks! Wish I had equipment to measure the performance of the light with Molicel vs Samsung 30Q
PM,
A simple way to go about it is measure ceiling bounce lux with a smartphone to gauge relative output fairly accurately and a stopwatch to measure runtimes while using the light. I use this excellent Android app:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tsang.alan.lightmeter
Since you already have some used 30Qs (I have boxes that have served me well, prime choice for years) a simple trial of a set of those versus some new P28a should reveal a significant difference, especially with the high mode (apparently exaggerated 150W spec) drawing 12A continuously. The FF5 only drew 7-8A on its 100W high mode.
When I first got my FF5 I used some 30Qs with some wear on them, not a matched new set until my order arrived. Was measuring runtime while using the light, and when the LVP caused a hard shutoff I compared cell voltages.
With used unmatched (wear/cycle use) 30Q cells that were evenly charged:
Because they are under heavy load in series, there will likely be one cell with significantly less voltage than the other 3 at LVP shutoff. Like one at 2.7V while the others still had some useful capacity at 3.0V. Weakest link in the chain principle at work. The cells were also very warm, guessing about 60 degC.
When I got my new 30Qs I got at least 5 more minutes of total runtime and an even 2.8V from all 4 cells at shutoff after a full run, and the cells were moderately warm.
YYou should invest in an inexpensive digital voltmeter ($15 ebay) to get accurate battery voltage readings, it's practical and gives peace of mind knowing liion condition.
The P28a cells are in a completely different league for high current delivery, I think the best choice given the limits of 18650s.
One thing I have read is the machining quality of the reflector on the FF5GT is greatly improved. It appears nearly perfectly smooth versus some very minor ring shaped irregularities on the FF5.
Keep having fun with your FF5GT :)
Looks like Molicel updated their 18650 to P28b 40a. Molicel 18650 2800mah P28B 40A battery
And I went ahead and got the GT. Oh well.
I would buy P28b If i could, even P28a, but only the P26a are available in my country...
Can you guys recommend 18650/21700 shop in the EU, that will ship to Poland and the shipping won't cost more then the cells. :D
Ps. Flat top's 18650, right?
The P28b cell has severely limited distribution in the US at present, the few sources have a min order quantity of 500 cells. It is available on AliExpress for $10/cell but then you have several weeks shipping time to deal with. It's not listed yet at liionwholesale.com, Molicel 's prime US distributor and my trusted source.
The P28b cell has the same capacity and lower impedance, with current rating increased to 40Amps continuous up from 35Amps for the P28a.
IMHO not justifying the wait and double the price, only $5.75 (Liionwholesale.com) for the P28a which seems ideally matched for use in the FF5GT.
Kokosnh,
The P26a has the same high current rating as the P28a, just 200mAh smaller capacity. It's just as well suited for the FF5GT so I would recommend those if locally available.
An excellent source of lithium ion batteries in the EU is NKON in Holland but they are backordered for the P28a until September 3rd, at a cost of 5.25 euro per cell. Yes, ONLY unprotected FLAT TOP 18650s fit the FF5 battery carrier. I highly recommend getting an accessory carrier for $30 (Nealsgadgets.com) and 8 cells for enjoyable runtime. Here is the web link:
https://eu.nkon.nl/molicel-inr18650-p28a-2800mah-35a.html
pokochasz to światło. powodzenia! baw się dobrze!
The P28Bs look awesome but they don’t seem to be for sale anywhere. the P26As are going for about $4.89 a piece