LG video threatening fines and jail time for consumers using their cells

slowtechstef · 2019-11-23T11:31:32.000Z

^ This, safety-by-design is a very useful pattern.

The risks of Li-ion cells are real, both in regard to fire risk as well as toxic fluoride gas emissions in case of such fires as health risk.
Consumers will do all kind of weird things given large enough populations.
With great power comes great responsibility.

G0OSE · 2019-11-23T17:57:38.000Z

will34:

Well I don’t see where this video is wrong, it’s valid for more than half of the people using lithium Ion cells. I had a hard time explaining to my friends why not all 18650s are the same. Now imagine someone who is new to the vaping world with zero battery knowledge and all the research he has done is via various ebay seller with fake capacity and output capability claims for its products…

I agree completely - the nativity of most people is staggering, however you do have to question whether your average ‘joe bloggs’ should be able to buy them. 99% of those joe bloggs not only don’t understand the risks, they buy cheap ass chargers and fake batteries (usually supplied by the seller) - no warnings, nothing. THIS is the real problem, and you aren’t going to cure that, ever.
Just this week someone on another type of forum someone put a deal up for Amazon (a 3rd party seller) one of those cheap zoomies, a battery and charger for £6. We wouldn’t buy it obviously , but thousands do. It even has 5 star reviews.
This ended up in an argument (he was going to give them to his children for presents) about safety - the guy says ‘why are these more likely to explode over an AA, I’ve never had a problem’ I suggested he just used AA’s which it took as well - wasted my time and came off as an interfering idiot. The whole thing ended up with,‘well it’s being sold by Amazon, it must be safe’. Right there is the problem - he trusts Amazon, they wouldn’t sell it if it were unsafe would they? if it blew up he thinks Amazon will be being sued - when in actual fact they would pass him on to the Chinese seller -good luck with that!
People often aren’t interested in truths beforehand, they are only interested when the worse happens and it time to sue. Bit late if your child is missing half his face or hand.

hank · 2019-11-23T19:10:35.000Z

I think it’s appropriately cautionary, and I’d show the fire-and-flame videos to new li-ion users before giving someone a li-ion light, cell, and charger.
Come to think of it, I’ve never given a li-ion bundle to anyone and never would, unless I trusted them to be well aware of this stuff.

The amount of energy being released is, well, cautionary.

Imagine some wacko or terrierist modifying a remote control car or drone to enable it to produce a dead short when crashed into a target.
That’s all it will take to convince the gummint to ban consumer use of anything except alkaline AA cells.

It ain’t a “nanny state” problem. It’s the problem of making high energy density products available over the counter to anyone. Like, you know, ammonium nitrate fertilizer……

The Lady And The Liion - IEEE Spectrum
https://spectrum.ieee.org › energy › renewables › the-lady-and-the-liion
Mar 1, 2008 - … at the 40th Battery Symposium, in Kyoto. She ruffled a few feathers there by pointing out in a talk that the energy density of lithium-ion batteries used for laptop computers, at 40 watt-hours per kilogram, was already getting uncomfortably close to that of your basic hand grenade. That density, the amount of energy stored in a certain mass, had been going up like a rocket as manufacturers competed fiercely for a growing market….

djozz · 2019-11-23T19:27:37.000Z

Comparing li-ion cells with hand grenades is pure retorics, the determining feature that distinguishes both is explosion speed, not energy density. Even in the worst vent-with-flame case the energy of a li-ion cell is released in seconds, while high explosives release their energy in 4000m/s, so for a 5cm hand grenade charge the energy would be produced in 0.01 milliseconds, half a million times as fast. (do I do this calculation right?)

BlueSwordM · 2019-11-23T19:34:03.000Z

Also, even at 275Wh/kg of energy density, current top of the line lithium-ion cells are nothing compared to hand grenades.

That means a kilogram of lithium-ion cells can deliver a total of 990kJ/kg, while TNT can deliver a total of 4000kJ/kg.

And as djozz said, you are limited by the internal resistance of lithium ion cells during a complete short, and the fact that they can’t actually detonate as such.

richbuff · 2019-11-23T19:45:33.000Z

The main purpose of the friendly and basically helpfully informative video is to let the masses know what the dangers of unprotected Li-ion cells are, and that protected cells are the safer option for those who are not experienced.

I don't think I will go to jail if my neighbors dog ambush charge attacks me, and I throw an unprotected cylindrical lithium-ion cell at it.

Lightbringer · 2019-11-23T20:01:30.000Z

JoeRodge:

Anything can be dangerous. I remember a local lady died like 5-7 years back by drinking too much water, for a contest, and died. We didn’t ban waterfaucet when that happened.

Perhaps we should! Every single person who drinks water eventually dies. Think of the children!

hank · 2019-11-23T20:11:04.000Z

can’t actually detonate as such

Is that why the “exploding flashlight” stories happen, because the energy released is confined in a tube until pressure builds up?
Let’s hope nobody puts a bundle of li-ions in a pressure cooker ….

Yeah, I realize there’s a chicken-little problem here.
The point of that old IEEE article was the rate of change in energy density — back then it was going up fast. Now? I dunno.

WalkIntoTheLight · 2019-11-23T20:20:45.000Z

I have no idea what she is saying, but she’s hot. Good enough for a thumbs-up on the video!

varbos · 2019-11-23T21:00:50.000Z

Most of the general public should not own or use bare li-ion cells.

They closely rememble an alkaline battery and the general public has used alkaline batteries (or NiCD, NiMH etc) in a flippant and careless manner their entire life. They do not take any special precautions.

So when they see an 18650, to their untrained eyes it’s just a bigger version of what they are familiar with. Inevitably they use them flippantly and without caution.

There are members of BLF who should be be using li-ion cells. A minority thankfully.

will34 · 2019-11-23T21:54:14.000Z

Hobbyists have been using high discharge LiPo’s for more than a decade. A single puncture and it’s on fiery, uncontrollable fire. There are no regulations and anyone can walk into a RC store and buy them.

I guess the fuss behind Li Ion specially 18650s is how mainstream they have become but the flashlight industry only makes up a very minor portion of the accidents. The result is integrated battery packs flashlights that are much more expensive, but supposedly “safer”.

264 · 2019-11-23T22:01:30.000Z

Guys it is South Korea. They can enact any law(s) they want in their own country. Unless you are planning to move to South Korea why is everyone in a twist?

KeepingItLight · 2019-11-23T23:07:04.000Z

Lightbringer:

Think of the children!

Ah, yes. The old "My baby! My baby!" argument wins every time.

264 · 2019-11-24T00:11:33.000Z

You guys understand they just want people to use protected cells?

bushmaster · 2019-11-24T00:25:25.000Z

Lightbringer:

JoeRodge:

Anything can be dangerous. I remember a local lady died like 5-7 years back by drinking too much water, for a contest, and died. We didn’t ban waterfaucet when that happened.

Perhaps we should! Every single person who drinks water eventually dies. Think of the children!

I have a middle-aged son who keeps slinking back homeward due to lonelyness(claimed) but more likely laziness. If I openly charge, discharge and otherwise use lithium ion batteries in indescriminate ways, might that be enough to drive him out of the house?

Lightbringer · 2019-11-24T01:07:48.000Z

Wellp, you can just get a pair of shorts and swim-goggles (ie, proper safety equipment) as well as a hammer, axe, other tools, and test the resilience of various 18650s. The resulting fumes’n’flames should do the trick.

Barkuti · 2019-11-24T06:53:55.000Z

Wellp, had to make a comment in the above linked video. :))

led4power · 2019-11-24T08:43:35.000Z

Does anyone from LG/Samsung goes to jail if battery/fire explosion happens in their phones, not by users fault? For some "strange" reason they don't mention or show battery fire videos of their phones when users are not the cause, but their design fault. So this video is probably created to try to shift all blame to users when future accidents happen.

Valynor · 2019-11-24T16:42:44.000Z

Why do y'all feel addressed by a video that's clearly NOT targeting your jurisdiction?

Bearbreeder · 2019-11-24T18:30:23.000Z

Its the unprotected mafia feeling like they are oppressed