Low battery warning on Police car during chase

Rayoui · 2019-10-22T03:57:10.000Z

I believe electric vehicles are the future, but certainly not in the form they are in today.

There are just too many inconveniences overshadowing the benefits when comparing to their fossil fuel burning vehicles and most consumers aren’t willing to live with those inconveniences. What happens after three or four years when you need a new battery pack? That’s 5000 USD, best case. What happens when your Tesla warranty runs out and you need to get repairs? You don’t, or you spend lots of money, assuming you can find someone who will touch the thing or even has the ability to get parts. What happens when you need to drive more than 200 miles? Better have your gas guzzler on standby. Live in an apartment? You can’t charge the thing so you are SOL. Power out or in the midst of some kind of natural disaster? Oh boy.

Things like this may seem minor in the grand scheme, but they are things many consumers just aren’t willing to overlook.

Safety is a concern in vehicles with large Li-ion packs. I’d rather not be in a burning vehicle at all if I can avoid it, but I’d much rather be in one with a 15 gallon gas tank than a 1200 pound Li-ion battery pack.

There are other ways to power electric vehicles. Hydrogen fuel cells for example. I understand that producing hydrogen isn’t too efficient today, but if the process was developed further, it could be improved and made more efficient. The same can be said about Li-ion batteries. They are not an ideal power source for an electric vehicle, at least not as they are today. It’s just the best we’ve got right now.

I’m sure I’ll own an EV in my lifetime, but it certainly will not be any of the ones available today.

BurningPlayd0h · 2019-10-22T18:20:17.000Z

Rayoui:

What happens after three or four years when you need a new battery pack? That’s 5000 USD, best case.

The same was said about hybrids but AFAIK the lifespan of the batteries has actually exceeded the estimates from the manufacturers on average. IDK if that is really relevant since for an EV they would be getting much more use I assume?

Rayoui:

What happens when your Tesla warranty runs out and you need to get repairs? You don’t, or you spend lots of money, assuming you can find someone who will touch the thing or even has the ability to get parts.

That completely discounts the EVs coming from large, established brands. The Leaf, etc. exist and have easily available support right now.

Agreed on most of the other points, but the infrastructure (or lack thereof) for charging EVs is a bigger issue than the aspects of the vehicles themselves.

f0xx · 2019-10-22T19:11:03.000Z

BurningPlayd0h:

the infrastructure (or lack thereof) for charging EVs is a bigger issue than the aspects of the vehicles themselves.

I think for someone who has a regular commute of less than the full range of the EV, and can charge it overnight at home (assuming reliable grid coverage) this isn’t even an issue. Who cares if there are charging stations on every corner like there are gas stations now when you don’t need them? Any large metropolitan area has a bunch these days, and where I live (though fairly rural) they just put in 6 at the local Walmart.

People probably argued that gas powered cars would never replace steam powered ones because coal was much easier to get anywhere…

I don’t know what the regular maintenance of an EV looks like, but reportedly this is where some of the savings occur (if we’re talking before any needed battery replacements). I read some article that purported that the 5 year TCO for a Tesla 3 was LOWER than an Accord or Camry. Not sure if they projected the 10 year TCO, but if there is a large battery replacement in there it might skew the other way. The lower 5 year TCO probably isn’t accurate if you do your own maintenance either. For someone who leases or gets a new car before 5 years, this might make great sense. If you drive a 5-10 year old Camry/Accord and do your own maintenance, you are probably pretty frugal and wouldn’t be interested in a new EV anyway.

Muto · 2019-10-22T20:06:14.000Z

f0xx:

BurningPlayd0h:

the infrastructure (or lack thereof) for charging EVs is a bigger issue than the aspects of the vehicles themselves.

I think for someone who has a regular commute of less than the full range of the EV, and can charge it overnight at home (assuming reliable grid coverage) this isn’t even an issue. _Who cares if there are charging stations on every corner like there are gas stations now when you don’t need them? _Any large metropolitan area has a bunch these days, and where I live (though fairly rural) they just put in 6 at the local Walmart.

People probably argued that gas powered cars would never replace steam powered ones because coal was much easier to get anywhere…

I don’t know what the regular maintenance of an EV looks like, but reportedly this is where some of the savings occur (if we’re talking before any needed battery replacements). I read some article that purported that the 5 year TCO for a Tesla 3 was LOWER than an Accord or Camry. Not sure if they projected the 10 year TCO, but if there is a large battery replacement in there it might skew the other way. The lower 5 year TCO probably isn’t accurate if you do your own maintenance either. For someone who leases or gets a new car before 5 years, this might make great sense. If you drive a 5-10 year old Camry/Accord and do your own maintenance, you are probably pretty frugal and wouldn’t be interested in a new EV anyway.

If you envision a city where electric cars outnumber the gas powered ones, then the problem becomes the fact that the electric car is using/tying up the charging station for at least 30 minutes (for a quick boost that would equal somewhere near 60% if using the Supercharger)
But lets go with 30 minutes, now how many electric feeds are there in the same space as a good sized gas station?
If they are all tied up for 30 minutes, that is a problem.

You said they just put in 6 at the local Walmart, OK so if each car is there for 30 minutes, then per Station can only charge 48 cars for the entire day.
When the person charging the car locks it and goes in the Walmart and does not come out at 30 min then the numbers really take a turn for the worse.
This is going to lead to Charging Station Rage.

How many cars can get gas from one pump in 24 hours?
Even if someone dilly dally’s around at the Quick-E-Mart and spends 10 minutes, that equals 144 cars per day per pump.
Most people in a hurry are in and out in 5 minutes.

And the previous poster brings up great point of living in 3rd floor condo, how is this person going to be able to get slow/full charge at home?
This utopia does not seem to work when brought to full scale.
If you overload the grid, electric companies will be forced to build more plants = more pollution, higher rates, Road Tax to pay for the roads that gas taxes help fund now, etc.

Sorry, don’t see the love.
Like the technology, but do not see it conquering the vast wide open spaces that we like to travel effectively for a long, long time.

Lightbringer · 2019-10-22T20:31:31.000Z

I said all that before, too. I don’t live in a 3rd floor condo, but a private house, and only have a “shared driveway” and a neighbor who would “prefer not to” keep a car in the driveway. So I effectively have no way to charge such a car, either.

And leaving a charging cable draped across the sidewalk overnight IF I could park in front of the house overnight? Lawsuit waiting to happen…

Ditto with the already-overtaxed electric grid, animosity towards more coal plants, nuclear plants, other established ways to generate electricity, the whole NIMBY attitude towards local substations even now (when said substations are only fired up during heatwaves when everyone and his grandmother has the AC fired up to arctic levels).

Now imagine all those folx in California during wildfire season being told to evacuate in their electric cars even though power’s been cut and a fire started anyway (lightning, idiot tossing out a lit cigarette, etc.).

Infrastructure needs to be there first before widespread adoption could happen. Else it’d be limited to the ’burbs and rural areas only.

f0xx · 2019-10-22T20:42:09.000Z

Muto:

That is why I outlined a specific scenario where an EV would be a good fit, because there are cases where they work. I don’t think everyone would need/want/could use one.

I think it is great to have the option for those that want one and/or could benefit from owning one. The one Tesla I took a ride in was FAST, and the self driving stuff was reportedly great in stop and go traffic. I wouldn’t have paid what this guy did, but he really likes it.

I don’t believe that current EVs offer what I need in a primary vehicle, but I think there is a future where that might change.

I would really be disappointed if they legislated Gasoline/Diesel powered vehicles away. Along with the entirely relevant and serious use cases, the grumble of a 5.0L Coyote or a 6.4L Hemi is like a symphony to my ears. I have an old Toyota MR2 in the garage slated for an engine swap (“one of these days”) and can’t imagine that the “whirr” of an electric motor would be as satisfying as a turbo charged V6 with some nice pipes.

EDIT:
Thought of another possible use case for EVs - city buses. they operate on a fixed schedule and travel fixed routes.

Muto · 2019-10-22T20:47:53.000Z

We used to have electric city buses in America, they were called Trolley’s

f0xx · 2019-10-22T21:08:18.000Z

Muto:

We used to have electric city buses in America, they were called Trolley’s

Proof of concept! With buses it would be easier to change/add routes, and the infrastructure might be cheaper.

I had a professor in one of my environmental science classes back in college who was from California. He didn’t drive an EV, and received a lot of flak from his colleagues because of it. He would always explain to them that the majority of the electricity in his area came from coal, and driving an EV wouldn’t be any better for the environment than a small gasoline powered car (what he drove) if you just counted emissions… but if you count the landfill space and the mining of the lithium for the battery of the EV (they hadn’t developed great ways to recycle the lithium by then either) the small gas vehicle kept for 15 years or so would be far better.

He was one of the few I encountered in that field with any sense at all.

MtnDon · 2019-10-22T21:13:00.000Z

Lightbringer:

Infrastructure needs to be there first before widespread adoption could happen.

For gasoline cars the needed supply infrastructure is a place to buy gasoline. Right? The infrastructure of gasoline stations was NOT in place before gasoline cars started to be sold. The cars were built first. In the beginning people bought gasoline wherever they could. Some of the first dispensaries of gasoline were pharmacies. Apparently the first purpose-built gas station was constructed in St. Louis, Missouri in 1905 at 420 South Theresa Avenue.

So, not to draw to fine a comparisson between early gas cars and todays electrics, electrics will become more and more common. Certainly there are problems to be overcome. But just because PG&E has messed up by ignoring its responsbilities to maintain its infrastructure does not mean EV’s will not suceed. They are not for everybody right now but neither were the first gas cars popular with everyone.

Lexel · 2019-10-22T21:16:43.000Z

MtnDon · 2019-10-22T21:30:47.000Z

Lightbringer · 2019-10-22T22:51:48.000Z

f0xx:

Thought of another possible use case for EVs - city buses. they operate on a fixed schedule and travel fixed routes.

BYD makes a bunch of them for Europe and such.

Here in NYC we already have a few electric buses. I’ve seen (but haven’t been on yet) a couple of Proterra e-buses on some lines, and New Flyer’s Xcelsior XE40s (the XD40 is diesel; XE40 electric) floating around somewhere.

I’ve been on a few buses that are still diesel but have start-stop tek, which makes the bus eerily quiet when it’s waiting at a light, etc. Rather creepy, in fact. You can hear every scratch, belch, fart, and gurgle that’s no longer masked by engine noise. :confounded:

Lightbringer · 2019-10-22T22:59:05.000Z

MtnDon:

For gasoline cars the needed supply infrastructure is a place to buy gasoline. Right?

If you wanted to travel long-range, sure. Back then, the average person never ventured farther than, what was it?, 30mi from where he was born? A horse could cover that area, and grass was everywhere.

If you wanted to take a car (with hand-cranked engine, no “climate-control” other than maybe a roof and doors, and other lack of amenities), you’d have similar “range anxiety” about going farther than you knew where you could get a container of gasoline.

But today, you run out, you can get a lift to a gas station and bring back a jerry-can of fuel to get going at least to the next station. It’d be nice if AA would have a power-bank to get enough of a jolt to get you to the next charging station, but…

MtnDon · 2019-10-22T23:18:32.000Z

You can recharge a Tesla by towing it.

Joshk · 2019-10-22T23:22:25.000Z

In theory. But does the car allow that?

MtnDon · 2019-10-22T23:28:53.000Z

My friend says Yes, it does. He tried it with his model 3.

Joshk · 2019-10-23T00:59:36.000Z

Cool. If I ever need a tow, I’m going to get the most out of it

grin · 2019-10-23T02:05:49.000Z

Highways need to be built like slot car tracks.

deleted-200707 · 2019-10-23T01:38:06.000Z

Lightbringer:

It’d be nice if AA would have a power-bank to get enough of a jolt to get you to the next charging station, but…

I don’t think that is included in the 12 steps.

Lightbringer · 2019-10-23T01:44:52.000Z

Just 12V…