Modes are nice, but.........

DB_Custom · 2018-09-30T19:57:10.000Z

Jerommel, I’ve built hundreds, literally hundreds of lights for other people and there has never been a standard as to what levels work best, 10-20-100, 5-30-100, whatever… someone always wants it set up differently.

Jerommel · 2018-09-30T20:10:01.000Z

Well, on average, when you triple the power with each mode up, the steps look similar, looks like doubling the output.
So with the moon mode hype there’s usually a huge gap between it and the 1st regular mode.

I think we can agree that very often the mode before 100% is too high, like 50, which is half the power, but looks like some 25 less bright.

As long as the output increases logarithmic with each mode up, the steps ‘look the same’.
Many lights have modes in the middle that are too close to eachother regarding output.
The S70S and the UT02 for example.

ToyKeeper · 2018-09-30T20:28:15.000Z

Jerommel:

100% is missing… :person_facepalming:

Convoy wanted a mode group which stopped at half power. It was a request they’ve gotten repeatedly over the years.

Jerommel:

triple the power with each mode up

There is conflicting research on this.

Going by physics, it should be an x**2 sort of curve. Basically, the inverse square law, same way we calculate candelas. Half the distance is double the brightness, a third of the distance is nine times as bright.

But the human eye doesn’t perceive in a linear fashion, so the closest thing to consensus in the research suggests using a x**3 curve instead. Basically, take the inverse square law and raise its power by one to account for the way humans perceive brightness. That’s the most widely accepted guideline for mode spacing.

Some argue that a logarithmic curve is more appropriate. And, at medium levels, the curves are really close. But it deviates more at the very low end, where a logarithmic method puts modes too close together, and the very high end, where it puts modes too far apart.

I generally adjust the curve based on the individual light and its purpose. For this, I made a ramp calculator to generate the curves, and it allows the user to select any of several different shapes.

On older lights I mostly used x*3. But on some newer, higher-powered lights, I’ve found that a x9 curve works better. This increases the resolution of the lower modes, and makes the high end of the curve steeper, which is desirable on lights which are very overpowered for their size, like the Emisar D4. But for the exact same brightness range on a larger light, I’d probably use x5 or x*3.

So… TL;DR: It depends.

nottawhackjob · 2018-09-30T21:58:22.000Z

raccoon city:

nottawhackjob:

Modes are nice, but

Modes are

Not to distract from the interesting and educational recent comments but I just want to say that I totally agree with Toykeeper on this being an emitter. In fact I know for a FACT that it’s a two-emitter build housed in respective OP and SMO surfaces.

The two emitters btw consist of a flooder and an asspheric.

Jerommel · 2018-10-01T17:29:31.000Z

ToyKeeper:

Jerommel:

100% is missing… :person_facepalming:

Convoy wanted a mode group which stopped at half power.
It was a request they’ve gotten repeatedly over the years.

That’s not a bad idea, but i wrote 10 - 30 (or 35, which is close enough) - 100 % being low - mid - high, 3 modes.

Jerommel:

triple the power with each mode up

There is conflicting research on this.

Going by physics, it should be an x***2 sort of curve.

I don’t know what you mean by x***2. Maybe x² ?

Basically, the inverse square law, same way we calculate candelas. Half the distance is double the brightness, a third of the distance is nine times as bright.

But the human eye doesn’t perceive in a linear fashion, so the closest thing to consensus in the research suggests using a x**3 curve instead.

Okay, i assume you mean 3× the previous mode, like the Nanjg AK47 and 105 7135 drivers, which indeed i prefer, and i assume they got to those 3× increments by experience and / or reasoning.

Basically, take the inverse square law and raise its power by one to account for the way humans perceive brightness. That’s the most widely accepted guideline for mode spacing.

Some argue that a logarithmic curve is more appropriate. And, at medium levels, the curves are really close. But it deviates more at the very low end, where a logarithmic method puts modes too close together, and the very high end, where it puts modes too far apart.

In what sense? Perception or Current?
By the way, i’m not used to mathematical lingo, so maybe i misunderstand what you say.

By the way, i use flashlights in real life in real dark (rural France) quite often, so i have an idea of what are useful steps (at least, for me) from one mode to the next.
It would help to know how big the steps actually are for each light, of course…

DB_Custom · 2018-10-01T17:48:56.000Z

Do the flashlights help you get from Hague to France? Can’t help but notice your ID says you’re in the Netherlands but yet you say you use flashlights in rural France. I’m not a traveler so these things are beyond my ken…

There are a lot of different uses out there in the dark of night, I know for me it varies a lot depending on whether I’m walking the big trash can 300 yds down to the main road for pick-up in the morning or maybe using a chain saw at 1AM to clear a storm felled tree from the country road. Looking for all the cows to be sure the bellering I hear at 3 in the morning is just because momma can’t locate her calf demands a different light, in order to possibly spot a coyote or 3 that may be giving issue. So it really depends on what the night is asking of me… I’m sure everyone present has their own diverse set of demands and the accompanying lights they prefer to use in meeting those.

Agro · 2018-10-01T17:57:36.000Z

My first good light was Peak Eiger, a ramping twisty constructed with QTC. I still haven’t found a better UI.

Jerommel · 2018-10-01T20:52:28.000Z

DB Custom:

Do the flashlights help you get from Hague to France?

Haha No, i get there by car usually.
My mother has a piece of land with a little house, which happens to be off grid (there’s a little gasoline generator though), and she needs me to help maintaining the lot, so i’m there some 2 months a year in total.

[Can’t help but notice your ID says you’re in the Netherlands but yet you say you use flashlights in rural France. I’m not a traveler so these things are beyond my ken…

At home (NL) i have little real need for flashlights, to be honest.
I carry one when walking the dog late though. I prefer my Concept1, with 80CRI 5000K XHP35 HI. But the DQG 7 shooter is nice too.
I have a 10180 light on my keys.
But i use a floody headlamp for hobbying a lot.

There are a lot of different uses out there in the dark of night, I know for me it varies a lot depending on whether I’m walking the big trash can 300 yds down to the main road for pick-up in the morning or maybe using a chain saw at 1AM to clear a storm felled tree from the country road. Looking for all the cows to be sure the bellering I hear at 3 in the morning is just because momma can’t locate her calf demands a different light, in order to possibly spot a coyote or 3 that may be giving issue. So it really depends on what the night is asking of me… I’m sure everyone present has their own diverse set of demands and the accompanying lights they prefer to use in meeting those.

Well, i usually take at least 10 lights with me to France, so i have some choice…

ToyKeeper · 2018-10-01T22:15:25.000Z

Jerommel:

I don’t know what you mean by x**2. Maybe x² ?
…
Okay, i assume you mean 3× the previous mode

The x*y notation means “x to the power of y”. So, x2 is x squared, x*3 is x cubed, and so on. The “3x the previous mode” shape is a logarithm base 3 with the number of modes chosen to hit a specific ratio.

For example, nine evenly-spaced levels from 0.1 lm to 1000 lm, using a few different curve shapes…

x**2	x**3	x**5	x**9	log 3
0.1	0.1	0.1	0.1	0.1
18	4.5	1.3	0.6	0.3
66	23	6.9	2.8	1.0
145	66	24	10	3.1
255	143	65	31	10
395	265	150	84	31
566	442	307	208	100
768	684	574	472	316
1000	1000	1000	1000	1000

For a light like this, I would probably go with fewer modes and a curve from one of the middle columns. For example, six modes with a x**5 shape it would be: 0.1, 3.8, 30, 128, 398, 1000.

goshdogit · 2018-10-01T22:30:37.000Z

ToyKeeper:

But it’s also possible to use a real forward clicky and an e-switch at the same time, so the clicky always works as a momentary mode and the e-switch is used for everything else. That is supported too, though it doesn’t get tested very often.

I love this feature of Andúril, and have been using it since you added it, almost exactly a year ago.

I didn’t even like dual-switch lights until I put Andúril on my EagleEye X6R with a TA driver.

I really want a forward clicky on my GT mini and Emisar D1S, but I can’t find anything that will easily lego with them.

Tom_Tom · 2018-10-01T23:01:40.000Z

I’d like to find a good supplier of forward clickies.

I’ve built a lot of UF-502Bs, such a versatile, and inexpensive, platform. And a nice curvaceous design, mixed with industrial functionality, particularly when you strip off the anodising and polish the bare metal.

But the standard switches are usually junk, and work backwards. So if anyone could point me towards a solid forward clicky (preferably silent, not clicky), with Omten quality, I would be grateful. I think Solarforce did one, but it wasn’t up to much current.

That’s the problem with forward switches, it’s just finger pressure holding the contacts together at the most crucial time, when they can fizz and spark. With a reverse switch it’s a snappy spring and mechanism, far more reliable.

And yes, Maglite got it right all those years ago.

Jerommel · 2018-10-01T23:58:28.000Z

Tom Tom:

I’d like to find a good supplier of forward clickies.

I’ve built a lot of UF-502Bs, such a versatile, and inexpensive, platform. And a nice curvaceous design, mixed with industrial functionality, particularly when you strip off the anodising and polish the bare metal.

But the standard switches are usually junk, and work backwards. So if anyone could point me towards a solid forward clicky (preferably silent, not clicky), with Omten quality, I would be grateful. I think Solarforce did one, but it wasn’t up to much current.

That’s the problem with forward switches, it’s just finger pressure holding the contacts together at the most crucial time, when they can fizz and spark. With a reverse switch it’s a snappy spring and mechanism, far more reliable.

And yes, Maglite got it right all those years ago.

Convoy store on AliExpress has fwd clickies. I assume they’re good.

Jerommel · 2018-10-02T00:17:07.000Z

ToyKeeper:

Jerommel:

I don’t know what you mean by x**2. Maybe x² ?
…
Okay, i assume you mean 3× the previous mode

The x*y notation means “x to the power of y”. So, x2 is x squared, x*3 is x cubed, and so on. The “3x the previous mode” shape is a logarithm base 3 with the number of modes chosen to hit a specific ratio.

For example, nine evenly-spaced levels from 0.1 lm to 1000 lm, using a few different curve shapes…

x**2

x**3

x**5

x**9

log 3

0.1

0.1

0.1

0.1

0.1

18

4.5

1.3

0.6

0.3

66

23

6.9

2.8

1.0

145

66

24

10

3.1

255

143

65

31

10

395

265

150

84

31

566

442

307

208

100

768

684

574

472

316

1000

1000

1000

1000

1000

For a light like this, I would probably go with fewer modes and a curve from one of the middle columns. For example, six modes with a x**5 shape it would be: 0.1, 3.8, 30, 128, 398, 1000.

Thanks for explaining.
I thought it was customary to type it like x^2, which, when you don’t hit the space key after ^, gets you x² (or ⁵ or ⁹ etc…)
I always forget where the multiplying dot is hidden though… but ALT + gets you ×

Jerommel · 2018-10-02T00:16:33.000Z

Agro:

My first good light was Peak Eiger, a ramping twisty constructed with QTC. I still haven’t found a better UI.

Is QTC pressure variable resistance?
(what is QTC?)

Lightbringer · 2018-10-02T01:25:07.000Z

“Quantum tunnelling composite”. Magic foam that passes increasing current with increasing pressure, only without resistance.

I have a hard time wrapping my brain around that, but it works!

Jerommel · 2018-10-02T01:51:53.000Z

I don’t think you can limit current without resistance…
Unless you use it to regulate a buck or boost driver, or to regulate PWM.

ToyKeeper · 2018-10-02T03:04:54.000Z

Jerommel:

I thought it was customary to type it like x^2, which, when you don’t hit the space key after ^, gets you x² (or ⁵ or ⁹ etc…)
I always forget where the multiplying dot is hidden though… but ALT + gets you ×

I usually avoid x^y because it is used in programming to indicate a bitwise XOR. The double-star operator isn’t often used for anything except exponents though.

HTML allows showing powers as superscripts, like x^y, but that also doesn’t work in programming languages… and neither do the unicode characters for raised numbers. So I try to stick to just 7-bit ascii whenever possible. It works pretty much everywhere, on any system built after 1970.

Agro · 2018-10-02T06:19:50.000Z

Quantum tunnelling composite is a form of a resistor with resistance changing depending on pressure. As you compress it, resistance drops.
Actually my Peak uses it to regulate a boost driver as it works on AAA. But f.e. CRX Ti4 has it instead of a driver. And at the end of compression there’s just a direct bypass.

Jerommel · 2018-10-02T10:48:23.000Z

Interesting!
But only applicable in twisty lights obviously.
Where can you buy it?

Agro · 2018-10-02T11:45:09.000Z

I bought from Peak directly. It was not the best experience as I didn’t get one of the battery tubes that I ordered, but got 3 others instead. I didn’t fight it though, so that situation may have been fixable.
En-mgmt carries them as well.

I have to note that my Peak UI works great with AAA, goes up smoothly from firefly to high. But that’s not the case with 10440, it starts at medium.
I haven’t heard such complaints with Eiger X / Ultra X, but I haven’t heard a direct confirmation that the issue is not present either. If I were to buy again, I would probably go with Ultra X….but first I would make sure that UI starts low.