Nichia 219B in Klarus Mi1C Ti - Issues

jon_slider · 2019-05-11T22:47:05.000Z

maybe it is unrealistic to expect a 16340 to maintain 600 lumens for more than a minute (and only on a full charge):

Review : Klarus Mi1C Cu (Xp-l hi , 16340 w/ integrated usb charger) . A classy EDC ! CR123A Flashlights

Hello everyone ! It has been quite some time since i posted a review due to some difficulties , but i’m back at it now Take a look at my review of the nice Mi1C and expect more new reviews ! Klarus Mi1C Cu Review [image] A few words for Klarus Mi1c : It is a small EDC flashlight , made out of copper (and also available in Titanium) that makes it premium, producing a nice focused beam with enough light to cover your needs from an xp-l hi emitter . Overview/Specifications : •M…

giorgoskok:

Here is a close up of the first minutes :

At the 1.4 minute mark , flashlight is measuring the temperature , and makes small corrections on the output to keep flashlight cool .

I dont think the problem is the LED, nor the battery
imo the problem is that 600 lumens is not sustainable from a 16340
For example, the Olight S Mini also cannot maintain 600 lumens for more than 90 seconds…

I use those lights on Moon, Low and Medium primarily… I do not expect more than a brief flash of Hundreds of Lumens.

pol77 · 2019-05-11T23:48:33.000Z

The situation here is not the driver stepping down after a minute.

It steps down randomly within 5 seconds. If I step it back up, maybe once, maybe a few times, it will then stay on high (600lm with the XP-L HI LED, less with the Nichia) until it gets hot.

I agree with moderator 007 that it must be the battery not providing enough power. In his case, the reason is the resistor mod, which drives the XP-L HI with more amps. In my case, it is the Nichia LED, which is obviously drawing a bit more power than the nominal 1.5A of the flashlight, enough to cause issues with normal 16340 batteries.

The way I see it, I either go for a vapcell, and keep the light as it is, or mod the R050 resistor to something with a bit higher value, to decrease the amps within the abilities of most 16340 batteries. I will try the vapcells first, as I prefer more output.

By the way, I did knock a couple of SMD components from their place while removing the black protective cap, but luckily I was able, with some effort, to solder them back on. I re-assembled the light and it works fine.

Lexel · 2019-05-12T00:12:11.000Z

the input and output cap of this driver is laughtable
seriously 0603 size?

also it seems one 0402 cap near than OPAmp seemed to moved off its designated pads during reflow,
my guess is that this causes the problems

moderator007 · 2019-05-12T00:42:39.000Z

Lexel:

the input and output cap of this driver is laughtable
seriously 0603 size?

also it seems one 0402 cap near than OPAmp seemed to moved off its designated pads during reflow,
my guess is that this causes the problems

Well check that out, Lexel you got eagle eyes :+1: . I didn’t even notice that until I zoomed in on the pic.
Fix the capacitors and see if that helps.
.

pol77 · 2019-05-12T00:46:47.000Z

As I said in my previous post, two capacitors had moved, either by me while removing the black cover, or in manufacturing. They have both been fixed.

The light still flickers from time to time and it also steps down. Remember, it did this before I ever touched the driver, so unless those moved components were a factory defect, they did not cause the issues.

I am still using the Nichia 219B LED, so this may be the cause, as it is probably drawing more current than the Cree XP-L HI.

I have ordered 4 VAPCELL 16340 from AliExpress. When they arrive I will be able to tell if it is the battery causing this.

jon_slider · 2019-05-12T01:50:11.000Z

I also had a lot of trouble running N219b in a light similar to the Klarus (Utorch S1 Mini)
Clemence said it was because the driver is linear
I dont know what that means, technically

but the E21a 2000k, and the stock XP-L, will run longer on maximum, than the N219b 4500k in my Utorch S1 Minis

I get lots of unreliable behavior if I try to use Max with the N219b, flicker, step down, very dim output

my conclusion is the circuit does not like LEDs with higher vf
I dont know the cure
I blame the driver design

here is a thread in which I tried to discover what was wrong

Olight S1 Mini High CRI and Utorch S1 Mini NW, now w N219b and E21A CR123A Flashlights

My Utorch S1 Mini w N219b has a problem I have not figured out yet, but it may be related to that thermal paste comment. Several times today, the light has turned itself off after a few seconds of use. When I try to click on, I get either zero light, or a very dim flickering moonlight that will not advance modes if I click. I fixed it once by slapping it half a dozen times. Not reliable. I “fixed” it twice by moving the LED board sideways gently from a couple different directions, in an atte…

but at the end of the day, Ive had to accept that I simply cannot use maximum with the N219b, with that driver

I had hoped the issue would not exist in the Klarus, sorry you had to be the guinea pig to discover that the Klarus, like the Utorch, has a circuit that is not N219b friendly

maybe there is a fix, and if so, it probably would work on the Utorch too… I hope you figure it out

Lexel · 2019-05-12T01:21:51.000Z

jon_slider:

I also had a lot of trouble running N219b in a light similar to the Klarus (Utorch S1 Mini)
Clemence said it was because the driver is linear
I dont know what that means, technically

but the E21a 2000k, and the stock XP-L, will run longer on maximum, than the N219b 4500k in my Utorch S1 Minis

I get lots of unreliable behavior if I try to use Max with the N219b, flicker, step down, very dim output

my conclusion is the circuit does not like LEDs with higher vf
I dont know the cure
I blame the driver design

here is a thread in which I tried to discover what was wrong
Olight S1 Mini High CRI and Utorch S1 Mini NW, now w N219b and E21A - #30 by jon_slider
but at the end of the day, Ive had to accept that I simply cannot use maximum with the N219b, with that driver

I had hoped the issue would not exist in the Klarus, sorry you had to be the guinea pig to discover that the Klarus, like the Utorch, has a circuit that is not N219b friendly

maybe there is a fix, and if so, it probably would work on the Utorch too… I hope you figure it out

the driver is definately not linear

pol77 · 2019-05-12T19:43:49.000Z

Well, problem solved, thanks to moderator007.

Even though I have not modified the driver, the lower fv of the Nichia 219B in combination with this particular driver is causing an increase of the current from 1.5A with the Cree XP-L HI to about 2.8A with the Nichia 219B.

This is a significant increase and not many 16340 batteries can provide this kind of current.

I tested the following, with the same results (random, non thermal step down and flickering):
Klarus 16340 700mAh (micro usb rechargeable) - included with the light
Fenix ARB-L 16-700U 16340 700mAh (micro usb rechargeable)
Olight ORB-163P06 16340 650mAh (5C)

This makes sense as none of the above are rated to provide 2.8A

I then tried the Olight IMR16340 550mAh (10C) which is rated to provide up to 5.5A. This worked great. It can also be used in the light without any modification, as the tail spring will contact the positive without issues. You will need to charge it in a compatible Olight flashlight or use a small magnet, with most chargers, if you do not want to mod the battery, which will remove its ability to charge in Olight flashlights.

I have ordered the new VapCell 16340 for a more elegant solution.

jon_slider · 2019-05-12T17:05:32.000Z

pol77:

the Nichia 219B in combination with this particular driver is causing an increase of the current from 1.5A with the Cree XP-L HI to about 2.8A with the Nichia 219B.

excellent info!
thanks for figuring that out

am I understanding correctly that:
with 219b, the circuit increases Amperage by almost double, and
the increase in current reduces runtime, and increases heat, making the light less efficient?

is there a way to modify the driver so it does not increase current to 2.8A when using the 219b?

pol77:

I then tried the Olight IMR16340 559mAh (10C) which is rated to provide up to 5.5A. This worked great.

I think you are referring to this cell:
Olight IMR RCR123A / 16340 550mAh 3.7V Protected Lithium Ion (Li-ion) Button Top Battery for S1R II (ORB-163C05-10C)

and as far as the

Vapcel INR16340 800mah 7A

is that battery Protected, like the Olight IMR?

moderator007 · 2019-05-12T23:55:38.000Z

That’s the cell, made for the S1R II. Olight 10C 16340 3amp Discharge Graph (Now Vapcell is the best 16340 I have tested)
You should be able to increase the feedback resistor to about double and bring the current down to half the 2.8 amps. Change the value from R050 to a R100 and see how that does.
If you lower the current the other batteries should work then.

pol77 · 2019-05-13T07:32:36.000Z

jon_slider:

the increase in current reduces runtime, and increases heat, making the light less efficient?

It depends on how you look at it. The increase in current makes the light brighter, which is great. It compensates for the fact that the Nichia 219B I replaced the Cree XP-L HI with, is less efficient and would produce less light, had it been fed the same Amps. As it stands, the light looks to me to be a bit brighter than it was before. Of course, I have no means to measure that objectively, so take it with a grain of salt.

On the other hand, the increased brightness and the usage of a less eficient LED will definitely have an impact in thermals and consumption. The light will start thermal throttling after 30-40 seconds, with a small visible (flicker like) step down and then gradual reduction in output. Nevertheless, it is still bright enough to use without any extreme plunges.

So all in all, it is a matter of preference. Some prefer a brighter high mode for less time and some prefer a less bright high mode for a bit longer. I think I am happy with what I have at the moment. I love such brightness from a High CRI LED in such a small light and it does not get uncomfortable hot nor does it throttle too soon.

jon_slider:

is there a way to modify the driver so it does not increase current to 2.8A when using the 219b?

As moderator007 said, replacing the R050 resistor with one of higher value should limit the Amps going to the LED. Thus the brightness and heat will be lessened and the runtime will be increased. The light will also be usable with batteries that can provide less Amps, such as the included one.

jon_slider:

I think you are referring to this cell:
Olight IMR RCR123A / 16340 550mAh 3.7V Protected Lithium Ion (Li-ion) Button Top Battery for S1R II (ORB-163C05-10C)

That is the one.

jon_slider:

and as far as the
Vapcel INR16340 800mah 7A
is that battery Protected, like the Olight IMR?

I do not know for sure but the facts that it says “End-of-discharge Voltage: 2.5V” in the specs and it has a visible neck a few mm below the positive pole, suggest that it is.

moderator007:

You should be able to increase the feedback resistor to about double and bring the current down to half the 2.8 amps. Change the value from R050 to a R100 and see how that does.
If you lower the current the other batteries should work then.

That is exactly what I think, but I am not sure I want to do that. I think I would rather use high power cells, like the Olight and the Vapcell and keep it as it is, with higher output.

On that, jon_slider, moderator007, anyone who cares to comment:
What do you think? Would you keep the light as it is now, with a higher output and battery consumption, requiring specific high output cells but giving out more light or temper it to be compatible with all RCR123 batteries and have a longer runtime, but produce less light?

jon_slider · 2019-05-13T16:59:36.000Z

pol77:

Would you keep the light as it is now, with a higher output and battery consumption, requiring specific high output cells but giving out more light or temper it to be compatible with all RCR123 batteries and have a longer runtime, but produce less light?

Protection is a High Priority for me.
I do at times like to live dangerously, and I have been known to use UNprotected LiIon.
However, I do not recommend my risk taking behavior to others.

IF I could confirm that the Vapcel has built in overdischarge protection, and I wanted to EDC the light myself, I might keep the resistor as is, for now.

I might even carry it with UNprotected cells, but that requires more presence of mind than I may have available at times.

(I did read that the minimum discharge spec is 2.5v, and I share your wishful thinking that it has overdischarge protection. Trust, but Verify)

In the grand scheme of things
I would prefer if the light worked with the provided Protected 16340 cell.

pol77 · 2019-05-14T05:07:49.000Z

Extensive testing has revealed occasional flickering.

I think the specs for the control chip are for 2A max, if I read it correctly, so understandably 2.8A is outside its comfort range. Switching power supplies tend to ripple in these situations so, I guess, hence the flickering.

I have ordered some R082 and some R100 resistors to replace the R050. This should put the power supply within its comfort zone and make the light work with any battery.

moderator007 · 2019-05-14T03:02:46.000Z

Using a single unprotected cell should be fine in this light as long as you know what to look for. You can run a little test to see where you realize the cell is low and not producing as much light.
Try using the light on high and when it steps down to medium keep using it to drain the cell preferably when it’s dark. As you use it, at some point you should notice the light getting dim. When it becomes obvious it’s losing lumens turn it off and pull the cell. Wait a few minutes and measure the voltage with a DMM and see where it’s at. If it’s above 3.0v then I’d say your good as long as you pull the cell when you see the same loss in daily use. The light may even step down from medium to low that be another good indicator if it does. If you mostly use it in low mode then you probably will not get any indicator until the cell is flat.
.
I prefer to have a big blast of light on hand and not use it much than to need it and not have it. I just use a lower mode for most task to extend run time.
It’s like sticking Nitrous Oxide on your daily driver. Just for the times when you need to merge into that relentless traffic.

jon_slider · 2019-05-14T05:30:36.000Z

I agree it is possible to gauge when a light is running low on batteries, as described above.

also
the Klarus Mi1C has a battery check mode, that could be mapped for future reference

for example
on my Utorch S1 Mini, modded w sw45, the batterty check is very conservative…

4 flashes is 4+ volts on my meter
3 flashes is 3.97 volts on my meter
2 flashes is 3.87 volts on my meter
1 flash is 3.77 volts on my meter

so using an unprotected cell it is still possible to know when the battery is down to 50%, which is a good time to recharge… IF I remember to use the battery check mode (2 clicks from off)

pc_light · 2019-05-14T12:54:22.000Z

FWIW, on my copy battery check is “3 clicks from Off”.

jon_slider · 2019-05-14T19:59:38.000Z

pc_light:

FWIW, on my copy battery check is “3 clicks from Off”.

thanks
and the Klarus only gives 3 flashes on full.

Have you had a chance to determine at what voltage it gives one flash?

.

and to illustrate that it is Normal for the light to step down by 50% within 45 seconds, and that it fluctuates due to thermal regulation, using the same R050 resistor as the Titanium model…

here is a review of the High CRI model that uses the 219c 5000k LED (same LED that HDS calls the 3’oclock High, which they limit to 200 lumen output):

[Review] Klarus Mi1C HCRI (219C, 16340, side switch, SS bezel, magnetic tail) CR123A Flashlights

The Product [image] The Klarus Mi1C is another entry in the ever popular 16340 sized e-switch lights. These seem to be extremely popular with the EDC crowd, as they're some of the smallest lights that can still put out an impressive amount of light - it seems that Klarus, Olight, and Fenix are in a constant battle to make the smallest and brightest light in this form factor. The Mi1C HCRI stands out from the crowd as it's the only one available with a high CRI LED that actually looks good, a…

bmengineer:

After 45 seconds, the light is already down to 50% of the output just 15 seconds earlier. After a bit of bouncing back and forth while the temperature settles, it holds steady for the rest of the run.

here is another runtime chart, this is the Titanium Klarus Mi1C, note how it drops quickly from turbo, and then jiggles up and down

zeroair:

When below 10%, the light will flash twice every three minutes.

note the comment that the TiKlarus has a low battery warning feature, a double flash every 3 minutes… this is a good thing for people who choose to use UNprotected cells.

pol77 · 2019-05-14T20:59:47.000Z

I have now replaced the R050 with an R082 and the current has dropped to 2A. This makes the light usable with all the 16340 batteries that I have, without it dropping to middle mode. It is, of course, not as bright as before. I have also tried an R100 and the current dropped to 1A, so I went with the R082.

The problem is that the flickering is still here and it is getting worse. All I can think of is that something has been damaged during the procedures (in the beginning, since the flickering has been present.

I have ordered another Ti and a Cu, as I love this light. I have also contacted Klarus, requesting if I can purchase a driver to replace the damaged one.

As a precaution, I replaced the LED as well, with another Nichia 219b, but the flickering did not improve.

moderator007, have you had any flickering issues with the light you modded to 3A?

jon_slider · 2019-05-14T21:48:06.000Z

pol77:

I have now replaced the R050 with an R082 and the current has dropped to 2A.
…
but the flickering did not improve.

congrats on your ability to alter the current draw
thanks for sharing your progress
I look forward to your success

since the max continuous discharge rate for the Klarus battery is 1.5A
Im not surprised the light flickers at 2A draw

fwiw, the HDS 16340 lights are set to 1A draw, and make 200 lumens on a 219c
their titanium model costs a bit more than the Klarus, but its a Rotary

I look forward to your modded Klarus Mi1C flicker going away with the High Drain Vapcell:
https://www.illumn.com/16340-vapcell-inr16340-800mah-7a-high-discharge-button-top.html

moderator007 · 2019-05-14T22:39:01.000Z

pol77:

moderator007, have you had any flickering issues with the light you modded to 3A?

None what so ever, just tried it again to make sure. Klarus says its Temp protected but It looks to me more like its just a timed step down.
I didn’t time it but after about 30 to 45 secs on high it steps down but I can change the mode right back to high and it runs another 30 to 45 secs. After about the third time of changing it back to high the light gets pretty hot but it continues to run on high until it steps down and I can change it right back and it continues again where its getting to hot to hold. I don’t hardly believe its temp protected, just a timed step down.