+1. I was hoping for things to be calm in this thread and to my surprise it actually happened.
Perhaps my last post sounded a bit serious, but I am not trying to get political (or rude… and I’m not smoking weed) 
The original topic regarding solar is VERY close to home to me— I want distributed solar because it’s more efficient, burns less coal and nobody can OWN a system where everyone participates in generating to the grid. Also, if you have a local power plant failure (or if your are military and “someone takes out a power plant”)… the whole grid fails. But not with distributed solar. The technology IS there today, the gear is as good as it can be with 25 year warranties on panels and 10 year on inverters. So yes, I am a believer and I drank the cool aid years ago when I decided one day to try and make a difference.
We BLF types like things done well and expect a good value for our money spent on a good light. We LIKE our choices, we LIKE quality, and we like a good price (what this discussion is really all about).
To keep our freedom of choice, we have to understand when is being threatened— WHEN it is being threatened, and act. And we need to discuss it and understand how and why things are happening. (again when we are doing here- I hope).
I think I speak for most here when I say I like having this great (direct) market with China which exists due to competition. And I also feel comfortable suggesting we do what we can to keep that competition in place.
And so who do we send to Washington?
The fact is (trouble is) it DOES take out some of US jobs
Dilemma comes down to a bit higher unemployment rate vs. a bit higher prices
And also, the fact is, asymmetrical trade deals do favor one of the sides (China)
Who put those deals in place (big $$:money_mouth_face: is probably a different question
Zappaman
You are too self-oriented to discuss international trade politics.
People who live in other 196 countries can just dream about prices, quality and range of goods available from walmart or homedepot.
P.S. I could understand if such discussions were popular in late 80s, but today when you can make few clicks and check out how much you $XX tool from walmart cost in england/norway/switzerland etc. :zipper_mouth_face:
As much as I can only speak to the US point of view for the most part… I HAVE spent time in Europe and I can say I saw a LOT less generic (monopolistic/oligopolistic) markets in Europe, than in the US where every corner has the same thing: Walmart, Starbucks, Home Depot, and McDonalds. I was DELIGHTED to see more variety (in retail anyway) when in Britain last year AND the quality of many of the products I did see there “shined” :sunglasses: compared to the US (i.e. the large diesel van we leased that got 50 MPG— where I can NOT BUY that van here in the US at the average dealership)! Why?
Hey, I am not self oriented any more then you… or anyone here. But after 40 years of watching (the US which I am commenting on BTW), I am as qualified as any to suggest free trade is optimal and smart enough to know WHO is behind restricting it (on my end in the US).
I’m not stating I am an international economist sir… I’m telling the story from markets I’ve participated in (here in the US) and no mention of your markets were attempted. The topic is solar tariffs with possible effects to ANYONE’S market (and who might threaten it or be threatened by it). I am in no way suggesting your market is the same as mine in 1980 or 2018— it makes no difference to the conversation— current policy and problematic (legal and political) challenges to ANY market… do.
Zappaman, all of that is fair enough, but it still doesn’t mean that trade partners in particular instances got themselves sweet deals
And if the trade deals are here to stay—and they are—would ANY trade deal be good enough for you?
There is only one market. Worldwide. Another way can be found somewhere in north korea.
Seller (trademark owner, manufacture etc.) never cares about goods quality. But they know everything about buyers. And their goods are always just as good as it is necessary for “average buyer”. And sometimes you play less role in this game than someone from india or pakistan.
Yes, it very cool when you have choise between various person-owned tool markets in finland. But if they want €300 for makita that you can get for $100 from homedepot, are you ready to pay for this monopoly-free market?
Finno/Kiriba-ru…
Once again, the OT was regarding tariffs in the US… and you guys are upset with your own situation- I get that.
BUT, just because I have a certain situation in my country (getting worse) doesn’t really give you guys quarter to be upset with my criticism of a BAD policy situation in the US (and my state of Kansas)— does it?
I again… did not pretend to know much about your markets- just what I experienced.
The only trade agreement I can agree to is FREE TRADE (literally— encumbered by politicians, and the big money they represent). I gave MANY examples HERE in the US. Again, sorry if your situation is worse. If I could BUY a drill and send it to you for a FEW bucks, I would. And as I don’t know what you are REALLY talking about (re. this tool monopoly you mention)… the REASON that expensive tool cost what it does— IS YOUR POLICY PROBLEM with that market. The COST of the drill (at the manufacturer) is the same. The final price is a function of EACH country/reagion’s trade policies THERE… not here.
So IF you don’t like paying $300 for a $100 drill, WE AGREE here on the reason why (and the problem)— don’t you think???
There is not one market, there are thousands… all around the world for most given products; and some are great (usually local food producers and LOCAL providers of service in the US— again DUE to competition and free REGIONAL markets). But when one entity wants to control ANY market- we know from history (in all countries around the world), the buyer looses and get VERY poor quality. (Korea is THE perfect example here, BTW).
The example of BLF buying FROM many, many producers in China makes my point. It IS as free a market as we (here in the US) get today, and if our dumb-* federal (or state) governments screw it up with tariffs— that sucks for us in the US. Not comparing to your markets here guys. If you read what I wrote again, you might see I am criticizing MY government, not yours.
And never in history has anyone paid MORE in a free market Kiraba-Ru, they ALWAYS pay WAY MORE in a monopoly. Don’t confuse a monopoly with a market— with a monopoly there IS no market.
Peace…
Trump’s proposed tariffs for China are not relevant to most of the rest of the world, except to make American exports using imported materials and components less competitive.
It seems they are unlikely to affect personal importation into the US.
Perhaps prices will go up for Chinese stuff sold in the US by big business.
Now, off topic:
24x240W = a peak of 5760 Watts depending on the solar irradiance in your location (but on E-W facing roofs, possibly at sub-optimal angles, it will be less).
To generate 8200 KWh in a year requires an average of 22.5 KWh per day, summer and winter, in sun and in cloudy skies.
I sense you are frustrated that the numbers may not work quite as well for you as you hoped. This surprises me, given your climate.
To give you a comparison:
Here in the dull wet and rainy UK small solar installations like this, tied to the grid, are eligible for “feed in tariff” subsidy.
At the moment this amounts to 3.93p for every KWh generated, and 5.03p divided by two, for what is assumed to be exported back into the grid through the inverter (it is not metered on small installations, the assumption is 50%), totalling 6.5p.
So if your installation was in the UK, you could anticipate (in our latitude and with our weather, unless you have maybe twice the number of panels, far less than) 8200 x 0.065 = £533 of subsidies per year.
Assuming the 50% exported estimate is valid, you would also be saving about another £500 per year on your self-generated ’leccy (average UK price is about 12.6p/KWh)
However, without expensive battery storage, you are effectively selling your exported ’leccy at 6.5p, then buying whatever you use at night for 12.6p.
If you somehow contrive to use all your solar electricity, and export none of it back into the grid (e.g. use excess for hot water, heatpump or airconditioning, charging your electric buggy etc.), that equates to over £1000 per year, plus over £500 subsidy. Now it starts to make sense for a long-term return on investment.
Large solar farms are now so efficient and the price of the panels and other infrastructure has dropped so fast (largely due to Chinese manufacturing and increased competition) that they are even economically viable in the UK, without subsidy.
Indeed one day last year solar briefly provided 25% of the UK’s electricity demand. Just as in recent weeks wind power has regularly been providing 25%, day and night.
Whether overall it is “eco”, taking into account the energy consumed and pollution generated in manufacturing, and later disposing of these things, is another matter.
It even sometimes makes business sense on older solar farms, that have degraded sufficiently, to replace them with newer more efficient panels. And there is a market for the old panels which still have many years of life left in them, albeit at slightly reduced output, instead of them ending up as landfill.
Uh… did I say 240? (sorry, they are 340- my typo there- edited to be correct)
We agree on re-use… the solar panels made in the early 90s had an end-of-life which they HAVE surpassed beyond expectations. I was part of a group who tried to get surplus panels to Puerto Rico- last year after the hurricane. BOTH old batteries and panels were available, but the airlines (and military) could not deliver them for us (what’s wrong with THAT policy?)
Anyway, I sell my power back for .02 cents per KWH and pay about .15 when I buy it. But my NEW bills will cost me dearly for whatever minuscule energy I use (winter months I do need MOST of my energy from my supplier, but 9 months out of the year I need MAYBE between 50 and 200 kwhs— a few months in spring/fall). When one adds $50 to a 50 KWH bill— my bill USED to be about $25. After my state sells us out to Westar… the same bill will cost about $70 (or .71 cents a KWH for the SAME KWH I sell them for .02 cents).
The 18650 recycled battery might be the future for my powerwall- but it will take (me) a month to build one- as it uses over 2000 of these batteries— LOTS of soldering!!!
Oh and BTW… on my solar array (off topic a bit):
Although I would have preferred a southern array at first, my existing barn used for the panels runs N/S and so East/West panels (at about a 12 degree declination). So that was what I had to work with.
It turns out though that IF we were working WITH power companies (Vs. against them) with solar in the US— we would ALL be putting our panels towards the WEST— as that is when the highest consumption is occurring (in most US homes)— then people are home from work and in the Western US— in the summer— they are running their HIGHEST use appliance past midnight— AC systems).
In fact, a FEW electrical Coops (who are trying to contain generation AND distribution costs) ARE giving WEST facing solar installed customers incentives for feeding back into the grid late in the day— when solar REALLY makes more sense in the western US in particular.
In Kansas, we get PLENTY hot… and my AC system IS definitely my #1 cost appliance 6 months out of the year here. If I do build a powerwall… I will need to add another 12 panels (and another inverter) to make it work. IF I HAD THE INCENTIVE… and stayed WITH my power company in a grid tied system… I’d build down the western side of my roof for the additional panels, so to add capacity in the system WHEN it is needed most.
However, as my power company (and state commission bowing to them) sucks… I’ll build a rack facing SOUTH to recover the lost solar energy during WINTER months— so as to keep my batteries topped off— 12 months a year (Vs. the 8 months a year I could maintain off-grid with my current config).
Back on topic… TRY buying larger batteries (for powerwall use) in the US and you’ll hit a BIG wall… once again brought to us by our dumb import policies. The sellers who WOULD sell to us ALSO can’t ship them without the same problems on their side too.
We HAVE some NEW battery technology also being squashed by several big players here in the US. They are cheap and for those with more space— easy to implement. But they aren’t selling because both our federal and industry leaders are NOT ready to let us have them yet… just like cars that get 50-60 MPG — like they DO in Europe. We won’t see them here any time soon 
It does sound as if your power company is not interested in encouraging widespread adoption of solar or other renewable technologies, (except to rip you off for the stuff you put back into their grid, to sell again at huge profit).
Everything that you generate yourself is lost profit for them.
Unsurprising, given that they are a power generation company, that’s what they do, they are hardly going to encourage others to compete even on a micro scale, and perhaps that’s something to do with an less regulated market combined with a monopoly supplier. I have no knowledge of the regulatory environment that applies to you.
Over the pond our power industry is heavily regulated, at UK and EU levels, and it has long been recognised that “leaving it to the market” doesn’t work, hence our complex arrangement of incentives, subsidies, long term commitments, security of supply guarantees, breakup of monopolies due to our national grid, we can sign up with any UK supplier, whoever gives the best deal, legislation tying to ensure we can switch suppliers with minimum effort, mandatory government controlled feed in tariffs etc. etc.
It is absolutely not perfect, but it’s what we have, renewables are actively encouraged and in some circumstances even make good business sense, as well as those wealthy people who install such systems because they are trying to do the right “eco” thing, nevermind the facts and data.
Edit:
For what it’s worth, the UK feed in tariff plus export tariff add up to more than ten times (corrected) the wholesale electricity generation costs, which are about 0.5p/KWh
Without government regulation there would be no incentive for the power generation companies to encourage or even support the arrangements.
It is exactly as you are saying it here Tom Tom.
We in the US have a NATIONAL policy (in about EVERY biz sector having to do with fossil fuels) to improve efficiency and reduce carbon commissions. Today, we FINALLY have indisputable proof of climate change effected BY these emissions (after 40 years of denial). And one does NOT need to be a bleeding heart liberal (or conservative) to see FACT— when one chooses to.
BUT, my rant is with regard to the playing field being VERY “un-leveled” these last few years with regard to solar and renewable POLICY changing from a policy FOR the people— creating the solar sector which is one of the FASTEST growing sectors in the US… to policy FOR the energy companies— who get ALL the energy credits and incentives (deserved by all), and use them to screw us (me) for premium rates.
Think Enron… it’s coming and I’d HATE to be in Australia where they are **ed right now and pensioners can’t even run electrical appliances in their home BECAUSE OF these same draconian policies that got them where they are… now.
All but the social idiot and big money types (and there are plenty and they DO have money) realize this latest STUPID tariff is not good for anyone BUT big money in the US. My personal examples come from REAL use and experience in my country in these markets— not conjecture (or AM radio, arm-chair conjecture OR ex-presidents selling icebergs to coastal areas). I spent the money, did my time and took notes.
Like the UK, we are not perfect, but if we stand a chance of moving into a future??? - competition MUST remain in place AND end-users deserve to use solar as much as the electric company. I AM A CAPITALISTS 100%… and when anyone threatens free markets with marketing “spins” on the reason for their bad acts… we need to remember THE bigger economic LAWS that underlie all the PR, Marketing and Media BS used to sell us these stupid ideas.
Net, net… It is because we don’t have regulation, that WE MUST regulate it ourselves, OR deny the truth and LET oligopolistic power brokers (the FEW VERY RICH) take it from us— UNFAIRLY.
We have laws here in the US that WERE passed for the better of us all— that have been exploited by the power brokers (and it happens WAY too often here lately). That is what I said in my first post, and I say it again in my last post (today anyway) 
It seems that tariffs might be beneficial for us consumers, they try to keep fake and toxic honey from getting in.
on the other hand it looks like the chinese producers know a bunch of tricks to mislead the customs about the origin of the honey.
Interesting article about the cat and mouse game they play.
On Netflix there is a documentary that goes into detail about the fake and toxic honey routed from China to Malaysia or south america to here. There is a test now that’s almost impossible to beat. They mass spectrum it to see every compound in it and the amounts. I watched it a few weeks back
Wow… they really suck balls, don’t they?
I was going to suggest not being tied to the grid, but you covered that.
Reminds me of the situation in California when they were so electricity starved that they actually had scheduled rolling blackouts. It was illegal in some places to hang your clothes on clotheslines, even on your own property, so you pretty much had no choice but to burn off a few kWH to use a dryer.
“Wait… huh??”
Yeah, you heard right. In the midst of rolling blackouts, you couldn’t air-dry your clothes naturally, but were forced to use power-hungry dryers instead.
Okay, it was probably only the odd city doing that (’Frisco wouldn’t surprise me), and no doubt quite a few totalitarian HOAs, vs anything statewide, but still…
(Go’n’goggle “california right to dry laws”…)
I was wondering if there were a non-battery way to store energy. Some installations used rotational energy (huge C-fiber flywheels spinning obscenely fast), others would store heat energy in huge thermal masses, etc. Gotta be something that could compete when chemical batteries.
As far as people paying extra to do the “environmental thing”, I wondered how they could expect to get away with that. Are people so loony-toonz about The Environment™ that they’d pay extra for wind power?
That reminds me of Hawaii, where I heard they charge you to take your waste-oil off your hands. Here, service stations are obligated by law to accept up to N gallons per day per person, to keep people from dumping used engine-oil down the drain. There, they charge you to take it. “Huh??” So, instead of making it easy to do the right thing, they penalise you for it. I just wonder how many people just say screw it and dump their oil any-ol’-where?
And let’s use simple economics. Where you get paid to recycle (eg, cans’n’bottles), there’s virtually no littering of same. Where you get charged to recycle (eg, old tires), you’re much more likely to see them littering the roadsides.
Soooo, I wonder if those idiots could scare up a few braincells and realise that if you want people to use “renewable energy”, pay them to do so (eg, subsidies, rebates, etc.), rather than penalising them for it.
Nah. I doubt that’ll happen…
Hmm, I’m wondering what youse are disagreeing about. ??
I’m with you (singular or plural, dunno for sure at this point), because it’s monopolies that create these lopsided situations, and lack of free trade also causes problems.
If you had the right to pick any supplier for your electricity, you could pick a powerco that’s not a collection of asswipes, that might actually welcome you for relieving them of some loading, so they wouldn’t have to upgrade their capacity, etc.
Me, I’m stuck with the monopoly of cable innernet, because other providers claim I’m not in their coverage area (despite coverage-maps saying otherwise). I’m trying to tell Rectum to get stuffed and try XFinity, but XF claims no can do, despite the coverage map saying otherwise, and the XFinity wifi hotspot I’m seeing (so I’m definitely within wifi range of some XF connection).
Protectionism and monopolies only prop up prices for those who are “protected”, even if horribly inefficient, greedy, and undeserving.
Works both ways, though. I’m enjoying getting a light from literally the other side of the planet for “free” or low cost, with the Chinese gummint footing the bill (ie, subsidised postage).
Frankly, I’d probably buy a lot less if prices were higher. How much higher, dunno, but…
If we do this to China what happens to the International free trade treaties we have signed? We going to have the treaty organization or the World Court order other countries to slap tariffs on us or order some other restrictions? How many countries do we NOT run a trade deficit with? The whole thing seems like a total can of worms and I can just see Donald potentially stepping on his middle appendage in this case. Historians have already voted him the worst president in history per something I read recently and verified via a Google search.