Remaining Battery Capacity

klrman · 2018-06-11T23:00:16.000Z

WalkIntoTheLight:

You really have to do run-time tests on your battery to be sure. But, as a general rule, here is what I find I my 18650 batteries (various Samsung, Sanyo, and Sony): 4.20v 100% 4.10v 90% 4.00v 80% 3.90v 65% 3.75v 50% 3.60v 30% 3.30v 10% 2.90v 0% That’s a rough rule for remaining energy (in watt-hours, not amp-hours, since I use a regulated light with a boost driver to do comparisons). It seems pretty consistent for the popular 18650 cells (30Q’s, VTC6, GA), as well as some older cells. Protected cells and 14500 cells seem to have way higher voltages when they’re just about empty. I have no idea why. Usually I top up anything under 3.9v, so I’m never really worried about cells getting low.

Do you think your 18650 figures would be similar to 26650 batteries?

jon_slider · 2018-06-11T23:22:54.000Z

klrman:

WalkIntoTheLight:

You really have to do run-time tests on your battery to be sure. But, as a general rule, here is what I find I my 18650 batteries (various Samsung, Sanyo, and Sony): 4.20v 100% 4.10v 90% 4.00v 80% 3.90v 65% 3.75v 50% 3.60v 30% 3.30v 10% 2.90v 0% That’s a rough rule for remaining energy (in watt-hours, not amp-hours, since I use a regulated light with a boost driver to do comparisons). It seems pretty consistent for the popular 18650 cells (30Q’s, VTC6, GA), as well as some older cells. Protected cells and 14500 cells seem to have way higher voltages when they’re just about empty. I have no idea why. Usually I top up anything under 3.9v, so I’m never really worried about cells getting low.

Do you think your 18650 figures would be similar to 26650 batteries?

Imo yes, those are reasonable numbers for any 3.7v liion

I also find that my utorch drops out of medium @3.5v, so if that happens, i swap in fresh.

Speed4goal · 2018-06-11T23:20:22.000Z

WalkIntoTheLight:

You really have to do run-time tests on your battery to be sure.

But, as a general rule, here is what I find I my 18650 batteries (various Samsung, Sanyo, and Sony):

That’s a pretty good rule of thumb chart there. Protected batteries

4.20v 100%
4.10v 90%
4.00v 80%
3.90v 65%
3.75v 50%
3.60v 30%
3.30v 10%
2.90v 0%

That’s a rough rule for remaining energy (in watt-hours, not amp-hours, since I use a regulated light with a boost driver to do comparisons). It seems pretty consistent for the popular 18650 cells (30Q’s, VTC6, GA), as well as some older cells.

Protected cells and 14500 cells seem to have way higher voltages when they’re just about empty. I have no idea why.

Usually I top up anything under 3.9v, so I’m never really worried about cells getting low.

I’ve noticed with protected cells when they are empty show higher voltages then the same unprotected cell. I always chalked it up to the higher resistance from the protection circuit. Like a normal cell drained to 3 volts under load shows about 3.2 to 3.3 when placed on the charger. And some protected cells and worn out cells with higher internal resistance will go up to 3.5+ once the load is removed.

Barkuti · 2018-06-11T23:21:31.000Z

jon_slider:

…

imho 3.6v is half empty, and it is good for LiIon not to be deep cycled

…

For a cell like the PLB 26650 5000mAh (LiitoKala INR26650-50A), at 3.6V no-load less than 2Ah of capacity are left (to infer this just look at the 0.2A discharge curve and maybe add 25 - 30mV because of the very small additional (besides I × R) loaded cell voltage drop. Other cells (different chemistries and etc) may vary.

With regards to deep cycling being detrimental for li-ion… I've heard it many times, but found absolutely no proof of it, whereas high voltage (high state of charge) is known to be detrimental and there's plenty of experiential and experimental proof. Thus, as far as I am concerned I'm gonna give that a Big Bullsh1t Award.

Cheers ^:)

Enderman · 2018-06-11T23:24:43.000Z

Remaining battery capacity depends on the voltage, the discharge curve of the cell voltage, the current draw at the moment of reading the voltage, and the average discharge rate.
Without these things all you will have is a rough guess.

jon_slider · 2018-06-11T23:38:44.000Z

Barkuti:

jon_slider:

… it is good for LiIon not to be deep cycled

…

I’m gonna give that a Big Bullsh1t Award

Lol
You misunderstand, my point. I will try to clarify:

It is not bad to recharge liion at 50%.

It is not necessay to drain completely before recharging

Liion does not build recharge level memory

I agree liion can be stored half empty

If you want to disagree with something I said you should criticize the 3.6 V comment which is not accurate.
Or better yet just post your own opinion instead of taking the time to criticize mine

moderator007 · 2018-06-12T00:11:17.000Z

These voltage to remaining capacity charts you see floating around, were mostly published and used when there were very few 18650 battery types and makes around. They were always considered a close estimate even then. Now you have several different types of 18650’s coming from each manufacture of the many, including a lot of china cells. The discharge curves vary a lot, so there measured resting voltage after partial use vary’s also, making the old voltage remaining capacity chart even further off. The chart is just a estimate and isn’t as reliable as it use to be because of so many differences in cells now a days. To make a somewhat accurate chart, you would need to discharge each type of cell and make a chart for that cell. Even then there could be slight differences. HKJ’s graphs would get you a close estimate under load, but you would have to use the same load as he tested with to get a close estimate. That reminds me, HKJ always tries to test two battery’s in his test because of the differences that sometimes causes different results when testing. These voltage to remaining capacity charts are just a estimate.

klrman · 2018-06-12T00:40:03.000Z

jon_slider:

klrman:

WalkIntoTheLight:

You really have to do run-time tests on your battery to be sure. But, as a general rule, here is what I find I my 18650 batteries (various Samsung, Sanyo, and Sony): 4.20v 100% 4.10v 90% 4.00v 80% 3.90v 65% 3.75v 50% 3.60v 30% 3.30v 10% 2.90v 0% That’s a rough rule for remaining energy (in watt-hours, not amp-hours, since I use a regulated light with a boost driver to do comparisons). It seems pretty consistent for the popular 18650 cells (30Q’s, VTC6, GA), as well as some older cells. Protected cells and 14500 cells seem to have way higher voltages when they’re just about empty. I have no idea why. Usually I top up anything under 3.9v, so I’m never really worried about cells getting low.

Do you think your 18650 figures would be similar to 26650 batteries?

Imo yes, those are reasonable numbers for any 3.7v liion I also find that my utorch drops out of medium @3.5v, so if that happens, i swap in fresh.

So far, I've recharged the batteries when they reach around 3.6v to 3.7v but always wondered what would happen if I just let them regularly go down to 3.0V. Never did that yet except when doing a capacity test on the charger.

CRX · 2018-06-12T00:42:02.000Z

Some members did a voltage reading after letting cells sit for two months.
I did a voltage measurement with a small selection of cells at 50% capacity.

jerm03 · 2018-06-12T01:00:58.000Z

Yes, that’s it. Thanks.
Jerry

Barkuti · 2018-06-12T01:37:00.000Z

Don't take it too seriously jon_slider. I wasn't specifically criticizing you but that stray belief, I just added a cheap joke over the thing. Pretty sure it may be demonstrated that deep cycling li-ion could also be harmful but, how deep is deep? At the usual loaded cut-offs we often use, 3 to 2.75V, harm should be pretty small if anything. Shortly after removing a cell from one of my fully regulated torches (3V flashes) the cell rests at 3.3+V.

Cheers :-)

HKJ · 2018-06-12T17:28:54.000Z

At the current time all my 3 battery test stations are busy, but I hope to test some batteries for remaining capacity later this year.
I have not decided exactly what batteries to test, but I will be looking for some of the never types.

Barkuti · 2018-06-12T18:30:01.000Z

Little question for HKJ and other technically :-) inclined fellows. As far as I understand, a typical consumer UPS (an old Riello iDialog Plus 60 whose Pb battery died) could be effectively overhauled with standard li-ion cells, 4S BMS and 4S LiFePO₄ balance boards. Since it comes with a 6S Pb battery, the UPS should charge its battery to 14.4 - 14.6V, this means the 4S li-ion setup would get at least around 3.6 to 3.65V per cell. From what I can infer from HKJ's graphs, even with a 30A load a cell like the PLB 5000mAh would still deliver 1.5+Ah down to 2.5V, typical li-ion BMS cut-off voltage. Since we limit ourselves to around ⅓ of peak cell capacity, even for a continuous discharge cell temperature would never exceed any limits. Thus, a 4S2P INR26650-50A battery pack would for sure deliver an average of ≈2.8V at 30A, for 84W/cell and 3+ minutes of battery life at peak load. Even at cut-off, 10V × 60A = 600VA at the input. Target SAI load is a network connected terminal computer for ≈300VA at most, with no possibility of SAI communication and always on.

Makes sense? To me it does, and 8x/12x cells plus 2x 40A BMS and balance boards would cost little money.

Cheers :-)

WalkIntoTheLight · 2018-06-12T19:21:21.000Z

Barkuti:

Little question for HKJ and other technically :) inclined fellows. As far as I understand, a typical consumer UPS (an old Riello iDialog Plus 60 whose Pb battery died) could be effectively overhauled with standard li-ion cells, 4S BMS and 4S LiFePO₄ balance boards. Since it comes with a 6S Pb battery, the UPS should charge its battery to 14.4 14.6V, this means the 4S li-ion setup would get at least around 3.6 to 3.65V per cell. From what I can infer from HKJ’s graphs, even with a 30A load a cell like the PLB 5000mAh would still deliver 1.5+Ah down to 2.5V, typical li-ion BMS cut-off voltage. Since we limit ourselves to around ⅓ of peak cell capacity, even for a continuous discharge cell temperature would never exceed any limits. Thus, a 4S2P INR26650-50A battery pack would for sure deliver an average of ≈2.8V at 30A, for 84W/cell and 3+ minutes of battery life at peak load. Even at cut-off, 10V × 60A = 600VA at the input. Target SAI load is a network connected terminal computer for ≈300VA at most, with no possibility of SAI communication and always on.

Makes sense? To me it does, and 8x/12x cells plus 2x 40A BMS and balance boards would cost little money.

Cheers

It’s probably cheaper just to replace the SLA battery with another one.

I don’t know how much a specific battery for your UPS would be, but on some UPS devices, they can connect to an external battery for extra run-time. A 1000 Wh deep-cycle battery is about $100. You’d need to use the full capacity of a hundred 18650 cells to equal that, which would cost several times as much.

Bang-for-the-buck, lead-acid is still the way to go, as long as you don’t have to lug it around.

Barkuti · 2018-06-12T19:34:08.000Z

WalkIntoTheLight:

…

It’s probably cheaper just to replace the SLA battery with another one.

…

Bang-for-the-buck, lead-acid is still the way to go, as long as you don’t have to lug it around.

Problem is deep cycling. The battery is going to be deep cycled, period. No way around this because:

UPS communication is not possible.
Terminal is always on: after-work hours, weekends, etc.

The tiny stock lead acid batteries get damaged with just the first deep cycle, and 2 or 3 after this they're cadaver.

Cheers ^:)

WalkIntoTheLight · 2018-06-12T20:09:18.000Z

Barkuti:

WalkIntoTheLight:

…
It’s probably cheaper just to replace the SLA battery with another one.
…
Bang-for-the-buck, lead-acid is still the way to go, as long as you don’t have to lug it around.

Problem is deep cycling. The battery is going to be deep cycled, period. No way around this because:

UPS communication is not possible.

Terminal is always on: after-work hours, weekends, etc.

The tiny stock lead acid batteries get damaged with just the first deep cycle, and 2 or 3 after this they’re cadaver.

Cheers :partying_face:

The UPS should have a cut-off at some voltage, preventing the battery from being drained flat. Yes, it will be hard on a SLA battery to drain it low, but unless you’re doing that regularly, the deep-cycle batteries are built to handle that better than regular car batteries (or perhaps the crappy stock battery?).

Even if you ruin a deep-cycle SLA battery year or two, it’s still probably cheaper than a lithium-ion battery of the same capacity.

Barkuti · 2018-06-12T20:29:40.000Z

What I see in our family business is an UPS will not last much beyond 4 - 5 years, and the solution has always been buying a new UPS, which already costs more than the custom li-ion setup which I'm sure would last at least twice and perform much better. In case of a blackout during rush hours it may allow you to dispatch a few customers and earn some additional penny. Of course in such a case one could close the system but with a long queue of wagerers to dispatch, seriously? :-)

Cheers ^:)

mattheww1950 · 2018-06-12T21:46:19.000Z

Barkuti:

Little question for HKJ and other technically :) inclined fellows. As far as I understand, a typical consumer UPS (an old Riello iDialog Plus 60 whose Pb battery died) could be effectively overhauled with standard li-ion cells, 4S BMS and 4S LiFePO₄ balance boards. Since it comes with a 6S Pb battery, the UPS should charge its battery to 14.4 14.6V, this means the 4S li-ion setup would get at least around 3.6 to 3.65V per cell. From what I can infer from HKJ’s graphs, even with a 30A load a cell like the PLB 5000mAh would still deliver 1.5+Ah down to 2.5V, typical li-ion BMS cut-off voltage. Since we limit ourselves to around ⅓ of peak cell capacity, even for a continuous discharge cell temperature would never exceed any limits. Thus, a 4S2P INR26650-50A battery pack would for sure deliver an average of ≈2.8V at 30A, for 84W/cell and 3+ minutes of battery life at peak load. Even at cut-off, 10V × 60A = 600VA at the input. Target SAI load is a network connected terminal computer for ≈300VA at most, with no possibility of SAI communication and always on.

Makes sense? To me it does, and 8x/12x cells plus 2x 40A BMS and balance boards would cost little money.

Cheers

There are in fact two issues, and you need to be aware of both of them. Lead Acid batteries have stable voltage under load. You cannot tell the charge state of a Lead Acid battery from its voltage. You actually have to measure the specific gravity of the acid in the cell to make that determination. That also means a UPS expects that if it has a 12 volt battery, it expects to see about 13.2 volts from startup until the battery is dead, by contrast Li-Ion cell charge state is determined by battery voltage, so as it discharges, the voltage will fall quite markedly from the original 4.2 or 4.35 volts per cell, and that is likely to be a problem for a device that expects to see constant voltage throughout the discharge cycle. In addition with lead acid cells, you can build them two ways. They can optimized for deep discharge cycling (this is how batteries to operate wheel chairs and electric trolling motors for boars are built), or optimized for overcharge tolerance (car batteries are designed this way). The life expectancy of any Li-Ion cell is close tied to how often and how deeply it is discharged. In addition the charging circuits are very different. Realistically because of the Li-Ion discharge properties, you need a UPS that is designed to deal with the changing input voltage as the cells discharge.

WalkIntoTheLight · 2018-06-12T23:26:52.000Z

mattheww1950:

Lead Acid batteries have stable voltage under load. You cannot tell the charge state of a Lead Acid battery from its voltage. You actually have to measure the specific gravity of the acid in the cell to make that determination. That also means a UPS expects that if it has a 12 volt battery, it expects to see about 13.2 volts from startup until the battery is dead,

You won’t get perfectly stable voltage from a lead-acid battery. While you might get 13.2 volts at full charge (given a low load), it will drop by up to 2 volts over the discharge. It’s not as dramatic as a lithium-ion battery, but it’s still a significant drop.

That said, you’re right that to get a proper reading you need to measure the specific gravity of the acid, which let’s face it: ain’t gonna happen in a UPS solution. UPS devices do give a capacity readout, though, which they must be estimating from the battery voltage.

snakebite · 2018-06-25T14:04:22.000Z

lead acid are far easier to determine remaining capacity by ocv than li-ion.
the wide range of li chemistries muddies this even further.
as for a ups if you have an old metal high quality unit the answer is a large external truck battery.
like a d31.
they are more of a high cycle type and being lead calcium dont need water as often as a lead antimony deep cycle.
since it will wear out from float life a few cycles are no big deal.