S2+ clone from Utorch

djozz · 2018-08-24T10:36:23.000Z

Look at that, they made sure to cause no confusion about the design :partying_face:
Considering how cheap and good Convoy has made them, I guess that there is no real market for an exact clone for the S2+ but I did order one from GB (they have a code btw) to see how far the cloning went. Anyone bought one already?

maukka · 2018-08-24T10:50:00.000Z

Djozz, you’re getting sloppy. Where’s the model number and link?

Or do you not want to support piracy?

raccoon · 2018-08-24T11:17:13.000Z

Creating a thread about a specific product and not providing a link should be a ban-able offense.

Don't make us ask, "Link?"

skinny_tie · 2018-08-24T11:19:12.000Z

Is it definitely a clone and not a rebranded Convoy?

MascaratumB · 2018-08-24T11:28:15.000Z

Utorch is definitely an - …how can I say it?… - innovative and revolutionary company in terms of design!! :exclamation:

BTW, SF01 as posted here , looks another light too…

BTW, djozz, when you get it, please confirm what type of LED does it use, once the photos indicate a (maybe) XML2 led but the description says XPL :zipper_mouth_face:

Paul59 · 2018-08-24T11:33:29.000Z

Utorch Cree XPL V6

Edit: already mentioned here

Jerommel · 2018-08-24T11:44:38.000Z

Same host, different brand.

djozz · 2018-08-24T11:52:06.000Z

something in between not wanting to support piracy and supporting it by telling the world, clearly my addiction is playing up here.

Like linked above by Paul59 it is in the current GB deals list.

Phlogiston · 2018-08-24T12:53:53.000Z

Yes, well, I won’t be buying any imitation Convoy lights.

I make a point of supporting Convoy by buying directly from their AliExpress store:

https://www.aliexpress.com/store/330416

He who does the work should reap the rewards.

Pete7874 · 2018-08-24T13:01:23.000Z

Phlogiston:

Yes, well, I won’t be buying any imitation Convoy lights.

I make a point of supporting Convoy by buying directly from their AliExpress store:

https://www.aliexpress.com/store/330416

He who does the work should reap the rewards.

Do we know for sure that Convoy is the original inventor?

I mean - we are talking about cheap flashlights from China here, where everyone copies everyone to one extent or another.

Just saying…

djozz · 2018-08-24T13:04:30.000Z

The S2+ is a tube-style 18650 light, when Convoy started there were many of them already, what Simon added is consistent quality and standard parts and that made his version so popular. It would be a bit silly if Utorch has made an exact copy in and out but if Utorch made internal changes I’m curious about their addition.

Jaded · 2018-08-24T13:53:08.000Z

In other words, Convoy made the S2 tube-style design very popular. Too bad for the original creator, intellectual property laws or IP laws are non-existing in China, which means when a particular design becomes a hit among consumers, copycats will pop up everywhere and practically no one can complain and seek relief in court…unless of course, if the government intervenes and invoke its almighty police power in the name of the people. It’s very different over there.

d_t_a · 2018-08-24T14:50:20.000Z

The Eagle Eye X2 / X2R also looks very similar to the Convoy S2+, isn’t it?

raccoon · 2018-08-24T16:00:38.000Z

Dealbreaker:

Mode: 5(High-Middle-Low-Strobe-SOS)

eas · 2018-08-25T04:04:03.000Z

Phlogiston:

Yes, well, I won’t be buying any imitation Convoy lights.

I make a point of supporting Convoy by buying directly from their AliExpress store:

https://www.aliexpress.com/store/330416

He who does the work should reap the rewards.

You think Simon doesn’t reap the rewards when someone buys from one of Simon’s wholesale customers?

In the time it takes Simon to sell a few lights to a few BLF members, he could take an order for 500 lights from Banggood, etc.

Buy them where you want, but the idea that buying a genuine convoy light (or even a rebranded convoy) isn’t supporting Simon’s business is pervasive and dubious.

As for what this UTorch thing is… buyer beware.

toddcshoe · 2018-08-25T04:48:18.000Z

I ordered two of them a few weeks ago. They weren’t in stock yet but got an email yesterday saying they shipped. Like $15 for two of them. Figured I could put them in with my camping gear for the kids even if they only work even fairly well.

eas · 2018-08-25T05:54:44.000Z

Jaded:

In other words, Convoy made the S2 tube-style design very popular. Too bad for the original creator, intellectual property laws or IP laws are non-existing in China, which means when a particular design becomes a hit among consumers, copycats will pop up everywhere and practically no one can complain and seek relief in court…unless of course, if the government intervenes and invoke its almighty police power in the name of the people. It’s very different over there.

Original creator? If China was a longtime and enthusiastic participant in the international IP system that the US plays in, how would things be different? What original IP could the original creator have laid claim to? What pre-existing patents would they have had to avoid or negotiate in order to bring a product to market without getting sued?

It is very unlikely that there is some original creator who got screwed. There were 18650 batteries, domed LED emitters and small shops with a few machine tools, combining the two as cheaply as possible.

Phlogiston · 2018-08-25T09:10:45.000Z

eas:

Phlogiston:

Yes, well, I won’t be buying any imitation Convoy lights.

I make a point of supporting Convoy by buying directly from their AliExpress store:

https://www.aliexpress.com/store/330416

He who does the work should reap the rewards.

You think Simon doesn’t reap the rewards when someone buys from one of Simon’s wholesale customers?

In the time it takes Simon to sell a few lights to a few BLF members, he could take an order for 500 lights from Banggood, etc.

Buy them where you want, but the idea that buying a genuine convoy light (or even a rebranded convoy) isn’t supporting Simon’s business is pervasive and dubious.

As for what this UTorch thing is… buyer beware.

You can argue that one either way, because it depends on the profit margin per light and, as you say, the time consumed to acquire that profit.

I’m fairly sure that Simon will make more per light when I buy them direct from him, because he doesn’t have to sacrifice some of his profit to cover the middleman’s own costs and profit margin.

The question, of course, is whether he makes more per hour processing small, higher margin orders from the likes of me, or large, lower margin orders from the likes of Banggood. I tend to presume that he wouldn’t run his own Convoy shop if it didn’t bring him at least a similar hourly income.

A Convoy L4 is on its way to me as we speak

TBone · 2018-08-25T10:48:50.000Z

You could set the Memory to Strobe and give the light to somebody you do not like. :partying_face:

Jaded · 2018-08-25T13:17:49.000Z

eas:

Jaded:

In other words, Convoy made the S2 tube-style design very popular. Too bad for the original creator, intellectual property laws or IP laws are non-existing in China, which means when a particular design becomes a hit among consumers, copycats will pop up everywhere and practically no one can complain and seek relief in court…unless of course, if the government intervenes and invoke its almighty police power in the name of the people. It’s very different over there.

Original creator? If China was a longtime and enthusiastic participant in the international IP system that the US plays in, how would things be different? What original IP could the original creator have laid claim to? What pre-existing patents would they have had to avoid or negotiate in order to bring a product to market without getting sued?

It is very unlikely that there is some original creator who got screwed. There were 18650 batteries, domed LED emitters and small shops with a few machine tools, combining the two as cheaply as possible.

I’m not talking about the inventor of modern flashlight. :person_facepalming:
I’m talking about the Convoy S2+ 18650 tube-style flashlight as a utility model or as a commercial-industrial design, which could qualify for registration in most IP laws of Western countries.

For the sake of discussion, let’s say both Convoy and Utorch are both American companies. Both are domestic corporations duly registered under U.S laws, with principal place of business in the U.S., meaning the U.S. government has full jurisdiction. Let’s say Convoy was the first ever to manufacture and sell the distinct S2+ 18650 tube-style flashlight. Let’s say this particular product became an instant hit in the global market and because of its immense popularity, the S2+ became synonymous with the brand Convoy. This motivated the company to secure registration of their utility model with the appropriate government agency. When a similar company like Utorch manufactures and sells exactly the same S2+ 18650 tube-style flashlight without securing prior written approval, a scenario like this can make Convoy go to court and argue about unfair competition or even infringement of intellectual property right.

This is what I meant when I said it’s different over there in China. There is no established, rigid system of laws that can absolutely protect and enforce IP laws. Don’t give me the argument that China is an enthusiastic participant or signatory to IP treaties. Any treaty or convention among nations (to which China is a an enthusiastic participant) can only have the force and effect of law only if the government of China is willing to fully enforce it. On paper, yes. China is a signatory to many treaties, including IP laws, but let’s face it…Compliance to the terms of a treaty is more voluntary, than mandatory. In reality, treaties among nations are more like gentlemen’s agreements among nations, formed on the basis of mutual respect, cooperation and reciprocity. You simply cannot compel a foreign government to enforce your own system of laws.