Solder stencil helpl please

Lexel · 2018-12-16T01:20:41.000Z

and if its not a electical part like the betzel i could use one out of machined lead

ROHS is bullshit on so many places of electical parts and systems
People do not eat their electrnics, most of them are well sealed within a case

ROHS is not even for recycling a matter those high tech. companies use all sort of protection and binding the toxic stuff

Borrow yourself such an x-ray analyser and inspect the MCPCB from 20 random Chineese flashlights

same for electromagnetic radiation of devices many simply blast out radiation like shit and still being sold here with CE sign

if a LED on a star melts at 190°C right same as the star besides it with my lead solder I simply got proof its not lead free

Tom_Tom · 2018-12-16T02:04:17.000Z

No need for such words. And learn how to spell them correctly.

You know the rules, so you have said, so please follow them. It is perfectly possible to do so legally. It might take a bit more experience and experimentation and different materials however.

You are German, so this should be indoctrinated into you from birth.

Just because some other countries are more relaxed, or simply ignore these things (at the moment), but imports are gradually being found out, does not make it right. It’s just another way of competing with, and under-pricing, genuine local or distant manufacturers who try to obey the rules.

Are you one of them, or just an anarchist who doesn’t believe that any rules apply to you, you can just make it up as you go along and sod everyone else ? Whilst sheltering inside the EU market where your stuff does not have to pass any borders and be examined.

I do hope not. Please grow up.

Tom_Tom · 2018-12-16T08:45:56.000Z

Again, read

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/31803/11-526-rohs-regulations-government-guidance-notes.pdf

Annex C, starting at page 17.

Nowhere in there do I see an exemption for e.g. the use of leaded solder, just because Lexel thinks it is all BS, and that somehow the rules don’t apply to him (and the stuff he makes and sells).

Copious chapter and verse on the exemptions allowing the use of e.g. leaded solder for certain, very precisely defined, critical applications, where no other substitute has been found.

Otherwise leaded solder is absolutely banned here. No arguments, no wishful thinking.

Tom_Tom · 2018-12-16T09:22:53.000Z

Lexel:

and if its not a electical part like the betzel i could use one out of machined lead

No you could not. You seem to just make things up to suit your own internal dialogue.

Also, page 20:

“6. Lead as an alloying element in steel containing up to 0.35% lead by weight,
aluminium containing up to 0.4% lead by weight and as a copper alloy
containing up to 4% lead by weight
Lead is often used as an alloying element to obtain specific properties of a metal
alloy. This exemption applies to the use of lead in steel up to 0.35% by weight, in
aluminium up to 0.4% by weight and in copper alloys up to 4% by weight. In the
context of this exemption, ‘percentage by weight’ has to be interpreted as ‘the
percentage of lead per homogeneous material per discreet part’. For example, if the
steel housing of a computer consists of two separate parts, each part can contain up
to 0.35% lead by weight of that part. ”

Tally-ho · 2018-12-16T10:12:58.000Z

OK we get it now, thank you Tom Tom.

Tom_Tom · 2018-12-16T11:40:12.000Z

Tally-ho:

OK we get it now, thank you Tom Tom.

Yes, we used to have tetra-ethyl lead in petrol, and lead water pipes.

Plumbing. The Romans invented it then boiled up their wine in lead vessels, creating lead acetate. Then drank the sweet stuff and went mad.

Not so much, any more.

It is nasty stuff, with no redeeming properties (except for very specialised hi-rel applications)

Get with the programme and eliminate it.

Lexel · 2018-12-16T13:22:48.000Z

In parts like Aluminum or steel it totally makes sense to restrict lead, as often those parts come in skin contact, or can wear off creating dust

I am working with solder on my job for over 20 years now and I have tried the best silver lead free you can buy, its simply a pain to solder with it

Companies optimised leaded solder componds not because lead is cheap, they did because the physical properties are way better than with a bare tin solder

Only in the food industry like wine or spirits destilling ect. Lead free solder is used because you would poison the liquid otherwise

Reflowing LEDs you are with lead free on the point where you can easily overcook the emitter as the reflow between 200 and 240 degree has only a very short time you can stay that hot, low temperature solder melts at too low temperature for hard driven LEDs, and I doubt flashlight companies tried to create a new lead free compound melting at 180degree with eutectic melting point

There are more and more exceptions like military, medical or car industry which are allowed to use leaded solder, because it has simply superior physical properties make it more durable and reliable under extreme conditions or do you want to die because your breathing machine fails because some lead free solder connection wents cold or breaks?

Same for electronic parts that cant be produced without too much Cadmium for example, they simply get an ROHS exception

led4power · 2018-12-16T15:26:30.000Z

Tom Tom is right, lead is banned in most of the World, period. And yes, basically all commercial electronic manufacturers use lead-free solder, so claim that "most flashlight manufacturers use Pb solder" is pure BS propaganda.

I'm using only lead free solder for 2+years and had zero problems, and you can feel it's more thermally conductive while using PB-free soldering wire.

So in LED world it's superior to leaded solder, yes, lead solder flows more nicely and has nice shiny appearance, but with good lead free solder there is almost no difference in use.

It's sad to hear anyone is defending toxic material just because he/she doesn't know how to use lead-free solder properly and spend some money to buy decent lead-free solder with 3% silver content and good flux.

Lexel · 2018-12-16T16:22:58.000Z

led4power:

Tom Tom is right, lead is banned in most of the World, period. And yes, basically all commercial electronic manufacturers use lead-free solder, so claim that “most flashlight manufacturers use Pb solder” is pure BS propaganda.

I’m using only lead free solder for 2+years and had zero problems, and you can feel it’s more thermally conductive while using PB-free soldering wire.

So in LED world it’s superior to leaded solder, yes, lead solder flows more nicely and has nice shiny appearance, but with good lead free solder there is almost no difference in use.

It’s sad to hear anyone is defending toxic material just because he/she doesn’t know how to use lead-free solder properly and spend some money to buy decent lead-free solder with 3% silver content and good flux.

I wrote I discovered many manufactorieries of Chineese flashlights use leaded solder to reflow the LEDs

I had the good stuff with 3% silver and good flux for 50€ a 1000g, simply it was not nearly as good as the stuff with lead and 2% silver or copper used before

and yes its superior especially in non commercial use like we do

- melting about 25°C earlier than lead free especially if you dont own a high tec reflow oven

flows better under the LED covering more area of the pads, doesnt help the lead free conducts better while it covers less area

LouieAtienza · 2018-12-16T16:39:26.000Z

Tom Tom:

Tally-ho:

OK we get it now, thank you Tom Tom.

Yes, we used to have tetra-ethyl lead in petrol, and lead water pipes.

Plumbing. The Romans invented it then boiled up their wine in lead vessels, creating lead acetate. Then drank the sweet stuff and went mad.

Not so much, any more.

It is nasty stuff, with no redeeming properties (except for very specialised hi-rel applications)

Get with the programme and eliminate it.

In all fairness I think though with all the more dangerous stuff lurking within a flashlight - like the lithium batteries - and the production, including aluminum (aluminium for the EU guys) and its anodizing process, lubricants and coolants used in the CNC machinery and the fuel for the electrical plants that supply the energy for those machines (and they’re not using nuclear in China), the micro amounts of lead in solder in a flashlight in comparison far pales all the other potentially harmful substances and effects of them. This is akin to noticing the speck in someone’s eye when we have a log in our own. Sure, we know how to properly dispose of batteries, but not everyone in the buying public does… so do we worry about .2 grams of lead when eight Li-ion cells get thrown in the trash?

led4power · 2018-12-16T17:02:10.000Z

Lexel:

I wrote I discovered many manufactorieries of Chineese flashlights use leaded solder to reflow the LEDs I had the good stuff with 3% silver and good flux for 50€ a 1000g, simply it was not nearly as good as the stuff with lead and 2% silver or copper used before and yes its superior especially in non commercial use like we do - melting about 25°C earlier than lead free especially if you dont own a high tec reflow oven - flows better under the LED covering more area of the pads, doesnt help the lead free conducts better while it covers less area

1.Please name those many manufacturers, and show proof that they use lead solder,

2. I said PB-free is superior for LEDs because of higher thermal conductivity. Your claim about lead free solder not flowing well may be true for some junk boards (without gold plating or dirty) or solder pastes, but with good boards and solder paste there is absolutely no problem and area coverage is the same as with lead solder. 25C higher temp is not problem, all LEDs are designed to handle it.

If lead-free solder is so much problematic as you claim, we wouldn't have smartphones,laptops etc. today, because defect rate would be high with all those 1000pin BGA and other super tiny chips, if lead-free solder doesn't flow well.

Lexel · 2018-12-16T18:51:23.000Z

led4power:

Lexel:

I wrote I discovered many manufactorieries of Chineese flashlights use leaded solder to reflow the LEDs I had the good stuff with 3% silver and good flux for 50€ a 1000g, simply it was not nearly as good as the stuff with lead and 2% silver or copper used before and yes its superior especially in non commercial use like we do - melting about 25°C earlier than lead free especially if you dont own a high tec reflow oven - flows better under the LED covering more area of the pads, doesnt help the lead free conducts better while it covers less area

1.Please name those many manufacturers, and show proof that they use lead solder,

2. I said PB-free is superior for LEDs because of higher thermal conductivity. Your claim about lead free solder not flowing well may be true for some junk boards (without gold plating or dirty) or solder pastes, but with good boards and solder paste there is absolutely no problem and area coverage is the same as with lead solder. 25C higher temp is not problem, all LEDs are designed to handle it.

If lead-free solder is so much problematic as you claim, we wouldn’t have smartphones,laptops etc. today, because defect rate would be high with all those 1000pin BGA and other super tiny chips, if lead-free solder doesn’t flow well.

Too bad I had no pictures made from for example XHP70 LEDs I removed while the tin was in half solid state
both the LED bottom and the MCPCB thermal pad was literally swiss cheese
The thing stripping the LED in a half solid state is simply not going near the 240°C limit of all those LEDs,
but as I wrote on the majority of LEDs I replace in stock chineese lights were with suspicious leaded solder tempererature stripped

or 2 XHPs 35s from a big company which had literally only 5% of the thermal pad with a connection to ther thermal pad, and LEDs went almost instantly blue and overcoocked themself

Its not fair to name here the brands but about 50% of the chineese, also including top end priced ones had 180°C melting solder

So if we talk about waste, if 1 million flashlights with leaded soldered 3535 LEDs get thrown in the household trash does this cover the one car battery get thrown in it or not by weight?
The main reason for ROHS was the waste problem of all those electronic devices not that its a real hazard for humans while using it

In fact the main problem is this electronic trash not getting properly recycled, because its cheaper to send it as used working electronics to India or Africa,
where kids spread hazardous materials all over the place and burn away the insulation to get to the copper
ROHS cant protect from inproper recycled metal of electronic devices in such cases, the other burning things are way more of a problem than a tiny amount of lead

RobertB · 2018-12-16T17:33:02.000Z

LouieAtienza:

Sure, we know how to properly dispose of batteries, but not everyone in the buying public does… so do we worry about .2 grams of lead when eight Li-ion cells get thrown in the trash?

” According to the U.S. government, lithium ion batteries aren’t an environmental hazard. “Lithium Ion batteries are classified by the federal government as non-hazardous waste and are safe for disposal in the normal municipal waste stream,” says Kate Krebs at the National Recycling Coalition. While other types of batteries include toxic metals such as cadmium, the metals in lithium ion batteries - cobalt, copper, nickel and iron - are considered safe for landfills or incinerators (Interestingly enough, lithium ion batteries contain an ionic form of lithium but no lithium metal ”

teacher · 2018-12-16T17:56:35.000Z

LouieAtienza:

In all fairness I think though with all the more dangerous stuff lurking within a flashlight - like the lithium batteries - and the production, including aluminum (aluminium for the EU guys) and its anodizing process, lubricants and coolants used in the CNC machinery and the fuel for the electrical plants that supply the energy for those machines (and they’re not using nuclear in China), the micro amounts of lead in solder in a flashlight in comparison far pales all the other potentially harmful substances and effects of them. This is akin to noticing the speck in someone’s eye when we have a log in our own. Sure, we know how to properly dispose of batteries, but not everyone in the buying public does… so do we worry about .2 grams of lead when eight Li-ion cells get thrown in the trash?

I agree LouieAtienza, well said. :+1:
Common sense is sometimes not a strong suit of the people who make these laws. :person_facepalming:

Tom_Tom · 2018-12-17T04:42:08.000Z

Lexel, I totally agree that traditional lead solders have some superior properties, and are much easier to work with, for the amateur.

Which is where I started here, encouraging amateur hobbyists to stock up on “the good stuff” whilst you still can, and use it.

Once this is taken seriously, demand for leaded solder will dry up, along with availability. Once the USA jumps on the bandwagon, it will be gone.

The early lead-free materials were dreadful.

However things have changed. Study Restriction of Hazardous Substances Directive - Wikipedia and read the last paragraphs, which are cause for optimism.

Nevertheless, the EU bureaucrats, decided to ban it’s use in EEE many years ago, except with specific exemptions. Which are under continuous review, and all expire after 5 years, if not renewed. And new ones are very reluctantly, if ever, granted.

It is the law here, no matter what your personal opinion of it is.

China also has it’s own RoHS regulations.

en.wikipedia.org

China RoHS

China RoHS (Restriction of Hazardous Substances), officially known as Administrative Measure on the Control of Pollution Caused by Electronic Information Products is a Chinese government regulation to control certain materials, including lead. The Ministry of Industry and Information Technology (MIIT) of China is responsible for approval and publication of China's RoHS regulations. "Administration on the Control of Pollution Caused by Electronic Information Products" (ACPEIP or China RoHS I) was...

The concern is nothing to do with poisoning the user, it is what happens when the EEE is disposed of at end of life. Now all WEEE is supposed to be specifically recycled and the materials re-used, but that doesn’t actually happen.

In practice, 70% of the word’s WEEE still ends up in China for processing, and they are fed up with it. Importation of it has been banned for many years, but it is still smuggled in on a massive scale. It is no longer seen as a valuable resource, but as a severe environmental problem. China domestically is also the second largest producer of WEEE, after the USA.

en.wikipedia.org

Electronic waste in China

Electronic waste or e-waste in China refers to electronic products that are no longer usable and are therefore dumped or recycled. China is the world's largest importer and producer of electronic waste with over 70% of all global e-waste ending up in the world's largest dumpsites. An estimated 60–80% of this e-waste is handled through illegal informal recycling processes, without the necessary safety precautions legally required by Chinese government regulations. Processing e-waste in China's dom...

If nothing else, follow this link. A gram here, a gram there, all adds up. Out of sight, out of mind, not my problem, is not an ethical philosophy.

Every UK citizen is estimated to produce 3.3 tonnes of WEEE in a lifetime. All of which has to be disposed of sensibly. Eliminating the lead, and other banned substances, is part of that process.

Just as eliminating it from petrol was. And from paint. That met with great resistance and lobbying from industry at the time, but who would argue for it’s re-introduction today ? (except for vintage car and aeroplane enthusiasts, who can still get Avgas). Likewise installing 3 way catalysts.

And eliminating SO2 from power station exhausts ( remember Waldsterben ? ). Although you are burning the filthiest brown lignite coal now, and even more Russian gas, since Merkel turned off all your clean nuclear stations. Some corruption involved there ? Just a thought, lots of money to be made digging up coal and supplying gas. And “lobbying” works. Nord Stream 2, and Gerhard Schröder’s involvement for example. But I digress.

Currently also seeing the death of Diesel, largely due to blatant lies and cheating by German manufacturers, who have been found out. Don’t be one of those, using leaded solder where it’s not allowed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WEEE_Man,*Eden_Project*~~*geograph.org.uk*~~\_785381.jpg

Tom_Tom · 2018-12-17T05:17:44.000Z

teacher:

LouieAtienza:

In all fairness I think though with all the more dangerous stuff lurking within a flashlight - like the lithium batteries - and the production, including aluminum (aluminium for the EU guys) and its anodizing process, lubricants and coolants used in the CNC machinery and the fuel for the electrical plants that supply the energy for those machines (and they’re not using nuclear in China), the micro amounts of lead in solder in a flashlight in comparison far pales all the other potentially harmful substances and effects of them. This is akin to noticing the speck in someone’s eye when we have a log in our own. Sure, we know how to properly dispose of batteries, but not everyone in the buying public does… so do we worry about .2 grams of lead when eight Li-ion cells get thrown in the trash?

I agree LouieAtienza, well said. :+1:
Common sense is sometimes not a strong suit of the people who make these laws. :person_facepalming:

I totally disagree. Common sense seems not to be a strong suit of some vocal forum “pundits” who have not the first clue about the subject.

Every industrial process is tightly regulated in the EU, and the US, and disposal/recycling of contaminated materials is a huge part of the work. You can’t just flush stuff down the drain, landfill, or send it up the chimney any-more.

Batteries is a good one, we have an EU directive on that too, which was not just drafted by some Brussels bureaucrat with an Arts degree, but after wide consultation with some very resistant industry specialists.

en.wikipedia.org

Battery Directive

The Directive 2006/66/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 6 September 2006 on batteries and accumulators and waste batteries and accumulators and repealing Directive 91/157/EEC, commonly known as the Battery Directive, regulates the manufacture and disposal of batteries in the European Union with the aim of "improving the environmental performance of batteries and accumulators".: 4 Batteries commonly contain hazardous elements such as mercury, cadmium, and lead, which when in...

Lead was even banned in wheel-weights many years ago. Annoying for me, because they were my primary source for casting lead bullets.

Likewise Germany banned it’s use in bullets for a while, but that got repealed after a very unfortunate boar hunting accident, where a copper bullet ricocheted off a tree trunk, instead of expanding, and killed someone.

UK Forestry Commision banned lead-based bullets for stalkers on their land many years ago.

We banned lead from shotgun cartridges used over wetland many years ago, as did the USA. I only use steel for everything now, and it works just fine, but differently.

The idea of shooting 25 or 50 cartridges, each containing an ounce or so of lead shot, maybe also a plastic wad, per person, at my informal shoot (15 to 20 of us), every two weeks, is abhorrent, which is why, after discussion, we all decided to stop using it. Club rule.

This is over land that cattle graze, and are then eaten by humans.

It also puts us on a more level playing field, where those who can afford the best cartridges no longer have an advantage. We all use the same, steel, fibre wad, which we bulk-buy to special order, and save a lot of money.

Tom_Tom · 2018-12-17T05:35:37.000Z

LouieAtienza:

… and the fuel for the electrical plants that supply the energy for those machines (and they’re not using nuclear in China),

Educate yourself.

en.wikipedia.org

Nuclear power in China

China is one of the world's largest producers of nuclear power. The country ranks third in the world both in total nuclear power capacity installed and electricity generated, accounting for around one tenth of global nuclear power generated. As of February 2023, China has 55 plants with 57GW in operation, 22 under construction with 24 GW and more than 70 planned with 88GW. About 5% of electricity in the country is due to nuclear energy. These plants generated 417 TWh of electricity in 2022 Nuc...

“China ranks fourth in the world in total nuclear power capacity installed, and third by nuclear power generated.”

They have a massive nuclear power infrastructure, are in a joint-venture with France to build the UK’s next one, then roll out their own ones here, once they pass our strict certification.

Our select specialist nuclear engineering degree and post-graduate courses also often involve secondment to China and from China, up to 6 months, for students, to mutual benefit and understanding. They know a lot about nuclear engineering, and other hi-tech stuff.

Making cheap torches is not really a mainstay of their economy. The clever engineers work on much more interesting things.

LouieAtienza · 2018-12-17T05:46:16.000Z

Tom Tom:

Making cheap torches is not really a mainstay of their economy. The clever engineers work on much more interesting things.

Exactly. So if flashlights are such a tiny part of their economy, and so few folks are using leaded solder nowadays, it’s use should be insignificant enough when compared to the dangers of Li-ion batteries, and pollutants from the manufacturing process.

Tom Tom:

“China ranks fourth in the world in total nuclear power capacity installed, and third by nuclear power generated.”

Educate yourself. Before making crude remarks and bogus Wiki references.

*_80_* of China’s energy consumption come from coal and crude oil. As massive as their nuclear infrastructure is, it, along with hydro and wind, combine for only 13 of China’s energy consumption.

Statista

China: energy consumption breakdown by source | Statista

In 2020, coal accounted for 56.8 percent of total energy consumption in China.

teacher · 2018-12-17T18:08:27.000Z

Tom Tom:

teacher:

LouieAtienza:

In all fairness I think though with all the more dangerous stuff lurking within a flashlight - like the lithium batteries - and the production, including aluminum (aluminium for the EU guys) and its anodizing process, lubricants and coolants used in the CNC machinery and the fuel for the electrical plants that supply the energy for those machines (and they’re not using nuclear in China), the micro amounts of lead in solder in a flashlight in comparison far pales all the other potentially harmful substances and effects of them. This is akin to noticing the speck in someone’s eye when we have a log in our own. Sure, we know how to properly dispose of batteries, but not everyone in the buying public does… so do we worry about .2 grams of lead when eight Li-ion cells get thrown in the trash?

I agree LouieAtienza, well said. :+1:
Common sense is sometimes not a strong suit of the people who make these laws. :person_facepalming:

I totally disagree. Common sense seems not to be a strong suit of some vocal forum “pundits” who have not the first clue about the subject.

Every industrial process is tightly regulated in the EU, and the US, and disposal/recycling of contaminated materials is a huge part of the work. You can’t just flush stuff down the drain, landfill, or send it up the chimney any-more.

Batteries is a good one, we have an EU directive on that too, which was not just drafted by some Brussels bureaucrat with an Arts degree, but after wide consultation with some very resistant industry specialists.

Battery Directive - Wikipedia

Lead was even banned in wheel-weights many years ago. Annoying for me, because they were my primary source for casting lead bullets.

Likewise Germany banned it’s use in bullets for a while, but that got repealed after a very unfortunate boar hunting accident, where a copper bullet ricocheted off a tree trunk, instead of expanding, and killed someone.

UK Forestry Commision banned lead-based bullets for stalkers on their land many years ago.

We banned lead from shotgun cartridges used over wetland many years ago, as did the USA. I only use steel for everything now, and it works just fine, but differently.

The idea of shooting 25 or 50 cartridges, each containing an ounce or so of lead shot, maybe also a plastic wad, per person, at my informal shoot (15 to 20 of us), every two weeks, is abhorrent, which is why, after discussion, we all decided to stop using it. Club rule.

This is over land that cattle graze, and are then eaten by humans.

It also puts us on a more level playing field, where those who can afford the best cartridges no longer have an advantage. We all use the same, steel, fibre wad, which we bulk-buy to special order, and save a lot of money.

Exactly… the things you mention are great examples where “common sense” was actually used.

Banning lead solder use in a flashlight is completely devoid of “common sense”…. as far as I am concerned.

Agreed…‘Common sense’ certainly does seems not to be a strong suit of some vocal “forum ”pundits” “. Some even grossly overestimate the true value of their commentaries.

.
edit for spelling correction.

CRX · 2018-12-17T18:03:18.000Z

True