Solved: Solving the mystery of the Nealsgadgets "LR2170HP" 21700 ultra high current cells

Batteries and Chargers Rechargeable Batteries
1

UPDATE 2023-09-05:

Got some cells thanks to Vapcell Dennis for testing, they are the Lishen LR2170LH, on average 3094mAh capacity and 9 milliOhms of internal resistance. They outperform P45B slightly, in a 4x SFT40 D4Sv2 the best of my P45B reaches 89kcd and the best of these was able to push it to 94kcd, and probably over 7000 lumens.

Cells came without wrappers, so they are currently wrapped in clear PVC, there is no printing on the body other than a number (mine say A7893436713) and data matrix which I haven’t been able to scan.

image

These cells are the ultimate hotrod-flashlight battery, with nothing that I’m aware of that could possibly beat them.

Original post below:

Neal sells a special ultra high current 21700 battery with the Nightwatch NS59 light, that claims 40A and outperforms every other 21700 battery in hotrod lumen tests. Nobody that I’m aware of had been able to find a source for more, or find out where to buy them, as they’re not sold individually, only included with the flashlight.

The mysterious origin of this battery had been bugging me to investigate further, for a few months. After a couple days of research think I may have solved it, partially.

Realizing that “western” search engines wouldn’t help find info, I used chinese search engine Baidu, and ended up finding a page where someone compares the various battery types available. Link to battery comparison, use google translate.

It mentions the “LR2170HP” battery, being made by Lishen and having a capacity of 3000mAh, which was enough information to keep investigating. I quickly ended up finding about a “LR2170LH” battery from Lishen that also is 3Ah capacity, and has a sufficiently high discharge rate that sellers on sites like JD claim 60A rating, however they are all out of stock. I haven’t tried Taobao yet, as it requires an account.

Digging a little more, I found this table on Ancoo-battery, which includes a 3000mAh 21700 lishen battery, called “03BCEA4(LR2170LH)”. The model number of 03BCEA2 is the same as what is written on some of the LR2170HP battery wrappers (with others having 03BCEA3), and it matches the approximate performance. $100 Budget MONSTER-Lights w/ 15000+ lumens: Wurkkos TS32-Nichia 519a. Comparison with Chinese POWER-LED Heavyweights: in Haikelite HK05, JKK76, Nightwatch NS59v2 Chaos. (Summary & measurements on P. 1) - #49 by cannga

This is also matching what Vapcell-Dennis said on [Lishen 21700 3000mAh LR2170HP - #8 by vapcell_Dennis)

I have so far contacted li-ion wholesale, to see if they can order a sample of “03BCEA3” cells for my testing, as they are a distributor of Grade A Lishen batteries, I will buy some if the minimum order is small enough, potentially might be interesting for sale to other BLF members who also want to have the absolute maximum output in FET hotrods. In china they have the advantage of being very cheap, compared to batteries with similar (if not slightly worse) turbo power, like the 30T and P45B, hopefully the price can also be low.

In case the minimum order is too big for me, would someone be interested in possibly hosting a group buy? I would do it but I am not in the USA, and international battery shipping is a nightmare.

Update 2023-03-03:
Got a response from LiionWholesale, they’re trying to find someone from Lishen who knows about it, as it is “a mythical beast”.

6 Thanks
2

Nice detective work. I think you got it. My Nealsgadgets Lishen indeed has 03BCEA3 on wrapper. I wonder though how important that last number, number 3, is.

My experience with Neal Lishen in Nightwatch Chaos is not consistent with Vapcell-Dennis observation of LR2170LH though, the part about “power performance is slightly weaker than 30T.” My amateur home test indicates Neal Lishen being quite a bit more powerful than Samsung 30T.

Can’t wait to see what Molicel P45B will bring to the table.

3

The wrapper numbers do matter, I think it is some sort of internal model/revision designator. 03BCEA2 and 03BCEA3 are the special 60A lishens (not sure what the difference between them is exactly, maybe different revision), 03BCEA4 is the designation officially known as LR2170LH, but there is conflicting info on the LR2170LH with some claiming 3000mAh and some 4000mAh, presumably the difference between 03BCEA2/3 and 03BCEA4.

Also, as far as the P45B, I think it won’t bring as much of an advantage to these ultra high output hotrods other than capacity, as its peak discharge and voltage sag is similar to that of a 30T, but with a longer runtime, according to Mooch.

2 Thanks
4

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Wow 60A for my Neal Lishen that’s cool. No wonder Neal charged me an arm and two legs for it :slightly_smiling_face:.

Wonder why US dealers don’t stock this 60A battery. Maybe demand not strong as there are not enough crazy hobbyists around?

P45B: peak current discharged is only 30A, not 45A as advertised?

5

Some sellers claim 60A, I doubt it can actually output that much current without overheating, but a light will throttle down before that happens.

There is probably just not very much demand for it, being a Chinese made cell (not one of the big 5), with low capacity, and is apparently sold out in all the domestic Chinese stores. Once you consider that for nearly everything a 40T or P42A is enough to get nearly all the lumens it can output, the market for this cell is only really for crazy flashlight hobbyists and maybe a small subset of vapers.

Also that isn’t the peak discharge, it is just comparing the runtimes of the 30T and P45B, the most important part for turbo output is how fast the voltage drops at the start, how quickly it drops from 4.2V to around 3.7V. Both have a very similar curve, so their max current performance should be similar.

1 Thank
6

Wonder why US dealers don’t stock this 60A battery.

What device needs it? There’s your answer.

7

Samsung 40T and Vapcell T50 don’t come close to the Lishen LR2170HP in terms of peak current when used in series in a Nightwatch NS59v2.

I damaged a Sofirn Q8 Plus by using three Lishen LR2170HP cells. Two LEDs are stuck on, and it peaked at 28.9K lumens for a second.

2 Thanks
8

Maybe this thing that doubles as a jump starter

9

That jump starter uses a LiPo. Those jumper packs usually use pouch type LiPo batteries, they’re higher current than nearly every Li-ion and cheaper. They just don’t take abuse as well as cylindrical Li-Ion cells, and are physically rather delicate.

1 Thank
10

I know, just saying there’s technically a flashlight out there that could use them

11

You can go up to about 35A continuous with a P45B before reaching its 80°C max temp rating. The 45A datasheet rating is temperature-limited and for the typical non-continuous applications the P45B was designed for (power tools, vacuum cleaners, etc.).

At 45A continuous it reaches about 100°C before the end of the discharge….wayyyy too hot. :slightly_smiling_face:

For non-continuous use it can certainly be (carefully) used at 45A but there’s a lot of voltage sag and accelerated aging at that extreme a discharge current level.

6 Thanks
12

I measured current with clamp meter on Nightwatch Chaos. First with stock Lishens and Second with P45B’s. P45B’s outperformed Lishens by about 1,5A. If I remember numbers right Lishens were ~50A and Molicels ~51.5A.

2 Thanks
13

I measured around 50.1A with Lishen’s in a Nightwatch NS59v2

2 Thanks
14

Interesting.

I am in the process of building a light using the SFH55 emitter , with claims of 28A continuous and peak capabilities in the 60A+ area.

Ordered Molicel P45B to try in it. So y’all think this mystery cell can deliver maximum power to it?

15

I haven’t been able to get either to test, but I think it might be up to par with the P45B if not slightly better.

I started researching it to do the same, to see what the absolutely highest power possible is from an SFH55 in a 3x21a host, estimating 14000 lumens and a lot of throw.

Originally I was going to make it with the 54A convoy fet driver, but Simon wouldn’t sell the 3x21a as a host, and the temperature regulation on convoy drivers was kind of dangerous has put the project on hold for me, until I can get a good deal on a SBT90 3x21a and find a suitable Anduril driver (maybe as a piggyback/sisterboard).

1 Thank
16

The MTN Electronics driver I ordered from Richard is out for delivery so I may be building this SFH55 today.

Have the emitter and an Illuminations Machines Diamond reflector fitted to a Sofirn SP70, will just be a matter of assembly.

Will need to machine either a carrier for 2S cells to act in parallel or a dummy cell.

17

make sure to order a new FET to solder onto the driver.
The pre-installed one has a high internal resistance

18

The driver I bought for this build has a a near 0 resistance FET. Richard knows my needs well. :wink:

Edit: Adapter for 26650 to 21700 is machined, dummy cell is complete but perhaps not properly fitted. Will finish that when I get the spring on the driver and the driver installed. :wink:

19

Oh, Richard does the driver with the better FET again?
Last I heard he stopped.
The 7135 stopped on my drivers too sadly

20

I have this SFH55 LED in a Mateminco PD90S. I don’t have P45B yet but followed are outputs using Neal’s Lishen vs Samsung 30T.

Neal’s Lishen consistently surpasses ALL batteries I have, in ALL my power hungry lights. If P45B comes anywhere close to that, it would be quite a feat. The Lishen vs P45B comparison is going to be fun; partly why I like to wait for Liionwholesale, to make sure there’s no question about provenance/pedigree.

Mateminco PD90S:
Output 7400 lm w/ Neal’s Lishen, 6700 lm w/ Samsung 30T
Lumintop D3:
Output Lishen 6500 lm w/ Neal’s Lishen, 6200 lm w/ Samsung 30T

1 Thank