TESLA MODEL S BATTERY TEARDOWN

Phlogiston · 2018-06-21T02:10:31.000Z

JasonWW:

Phlogiston:

I believe that new Tesla designs will be using the 21700 format. If I remember rightly, Elon Musk said that the larger cell is more efficient in terms of volume and capacity, although I do wonder why they didn’t just go to 26650.

The reason they don’t use a bigger diameter has to do with cooling. The water cooling systems aren’t capable of pulling the heat from the core of the bigger diameter batteries. The smaller diameter 21700 allows for adequate heat transfer through the entire cell. This is my understanding.

Ahh… that makes sense. More surface area per unit volume with the 21700, as compared to the 26650, but still getting more capacity than the 18650.

JasonWW:

Did you guys know the prius used nickel-metal hydride batteries until just recently?

I knew that from a while ago, but didn’t know the current state of affairs. I take it that means they’ve switched to Li-Ion as well now?

stolikat · 2018-06-21T04:05:57.000Z

JasonWW:

Can we not talk politics?

Yes agreed.

Henk4U2 · 2018-06-21T07:36:16.000Z

JasonWW:

Can we not talk politics?

The battery packs are very interesting.

Did you guys know the prius used nickel-metal hydride batteries until just recently?

“Lithium-ion batteries are notable for having a relatively high energy density (the amount of energy that can be stored per unit of weight or volume). Nickel-metal hydride batteries perform stably even at low temperatures. Toyota uses the features of each battery type to meet customer requests and regional needs.”
Source: Toyota Global Site.

Which in real life could mean that Li-Ion is confined to US and Japan. Some say that the Li-Ion battery gets a better MPG in the EPA ratings while NiMH batteries cope better with the EU test cycle.

Zulumoose · 2018-06-21T07:52:42.000Z

Some say that the Li-Ion battery gets a better MPG in the EPA ratings while NiMH batteries cope better with the EU test cycle.

You know, I just can’t read a sentence beginning with “Some say” without slowing down and reading it with an internal Jeremy Clarkson voice.

Henk4U2 · 2018-06-21T08:34:48.000Z

Ah, you are referring to our Tame Racing Driver. Or in this case: his American cuosin (just quoting )

Tom_Tom · 2018-06-21T12:07:18.000Z

Muto:

My chiropractor has a Leaf and likes it but he only uses it local so have no idea of true range.
Thanks for the info.

The LEAF 2 (2018) is greatly improved from the original. Currently the battery is 40Kwh, but next year it will get a 60 Kwh version, presumably with 50% more range.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLcL5SemC_M for a first-drive review, suggesting a real range of about 170 miles.

And a full test demonstrating how well the regeneration works (this channel is very good for all things EV): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_SEs9I9sptw

PS: the LEAF is also seat up for vehicle-grid charging similar to using it as a power wall, but cleverer.

Tom_Tom · 2018-06-21T18:01:01.000Z

Muto:

BMW or the German’s in general are gonna eat their lunch.

Don’t forget Jaguar with the I-PACE, who have beaten the Germans to market with a real Tesla competitor.

Oops double post (deleted).

I meaned to second post https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MocHcoBm4bU

Where Jonny elaborates. Watch it through to the end.

Andrew_Debbie · 2018-06-21T20:21:27.000Z

Muto:

My chiropractor has a Leaf and likes it but he only uses it local so have no idea of true range.

My 2017 LEAF 30 is good for about 125miles in Summer and 100 in Winter. Here in North Wales “Summer” is about 65 degrees F and sunny on good days.

The current 2018 LEAF 40 is supposed to be around 160 summer miles and perhaps 140 in Winter. Nissan say a 60kWh version is on the way later this year.

JasonWW · 2018-06-21T21:20:39.000Z

Andrew_Debbie:

Muto:

My chiropractor has a Leaf and likes it but he only uses it local so have no idea of true range.

My 2017 LEAF 30 is good for about 125miles in Summer and 100 in Winter. Here in North Wales “Summer” is about 65 degrees F and sunny on good days.

The current 2018 LEAF 40 is supposed to be around 160 summer miles and perhaps 140 in Winter. Nissan say a 60kWh version is on the way later this year.

Do you have any idea about what the Leafs battery is made up of?
Is it lithium 18650’s?

Henk4U2 · 2018-06-21T22:23:43.000Z

No it is not. Look here for the 2018 specs.

JasonWW · 2018-06-21T23:11:11.000Z

Ah, so the Leaf is using Lithium batteries in a thin pouch format with about half the energy density of an 18650 cell.

I think Tesla’s got the right idea partnering with Panasonic and using a more common, cylindrical cell with mucher higher energy density.

Tom_Tom · 2018-06-21T23:14:52.000Z

Agreed. Nobody (except Tesla with their Gigafactories) would use a great heap of 18650s. or 17500s, or whatever.

Rumour is that the Nissan 2019 cells (60 Kwh vs 40 Kwh) will use LG technology, and improved thermal management.

See my link to see how Jaguar are using heat pumps (actually the air-conditioning backwards) to keep the cells at ideal temperature.

Jaguar, Nissan, and all the German makers, have different ideas. Which will prevail. Not coming to a torch to you soon. And they know how to make desirable cars.

This would all have happened without Tesla, but they showed what could be done with extreme stuff. I don’t think they are ready for the mass-market, or mass manufacture.

Tom_Tom · 2018-06-21T23:16:36.000Z

JasonWW:

Ah, so the Leaf is using Lithium batteries in a thin pouch format with about half the energy density of an 18650 cell.

I think Tesla’s got the right idea partnering with Panasonic and using a more common, cylindrical cell with mucher higher energy density.

You couldn’t be more wrong, in every respect. But time will tell.

joechina · 2018-06-22T16:49:09.000Z

What Tesla did was they over sized the power supply in oder to get a long live time of the battery pac. They said (that was before ludicrous mode), if you drive on the highway with full speed, you would discharge with only 1/4 C-rate!
One of their paradigm change was to put 4- to 8-times more batteries in the car as normal.

Tom_Tom · 2018-06-23T15:10:58.000Z

Edit: It’s a mad mad mad mad world. (correct quote).

Just today Airbus and BMW have stated their support of UK post Brexit. The unelected lot in Brussels want to punish us.

BMW make 1000 Minis per day here, and Airbus wings (and engines) are made here too.

And 15% of the F35 (mostly the clever bits).

As well as most Hondas, Nissans, Toyotas for the EU market. And of course Jaguar and LandRover. Plus the exotics, McLaren, Aston, Lotus, Morgan etc.

Never mind secret stuff like Galileo, and security sharing from e.g GCHQ/Mi5

Nose, face, spite, cutoff comes to mind.

Where will this end ?

WalkIntoTheLight · 2018-06-22T19:47:42.000Z

It’s an interesting video, but I’m not really sure I’d want to buy their recycled cells they rescue from an auto-wrecker.

Tom_Tom · 2018-06-22T20:14:23.000Z

Tom Tom:

It’s a mad mad world.
Where will this end ?

Perhaps with the Child-Catcher. Already happened .

Tom_Tom · 2018-06-23T15:46:55.000Z

More laughs and giggles, whilst making a point or two:

Andrew_Debbie · 2018-06-23T21:04:51.000Z

JasonWW:

Ah, so the Leaf is using Lithium batteries in a thin pouch format with about half the energy density of an 18650 cell.

I think Tesla’s got the right idea partnering with Panasonic and using a more common, cylindrical cell with mucher higher energy density.

Just about everyone else use pouch cells assembled into prismatic modules.

Tesla are alone in using NCA 18650 / 21700 cells. Choosing NCA over NMC, more or less forced the rest of the design. Bad things happen if an NCA battery gets hot, so Tesla have to stick to a size that is easy to cool. Also they need packaging that will contain a single cell going into thermal runaway.

The only other production electric cars with NCA batteries are the ones with Tesla powertrains.

NMC batteries may not have the per-cell energy density of an NCA 18650 but can get by without liquid cooling loops. Some designs don’t need active cooling at all. This is a cost savings and and of the reasons why a LEAF is 1/4 the price of a Model S.

NMC energy density is improving. Nissan have gone from 24, to 30 and now 40kWh in the same form factor. 24 to 30 was partially better packaging. None of them have active cooling although maybe the 40 could use it.

The latest NMC 811 chemistry is close to or better than what Tesla / Panasonic are getting with NCA. At the same time it is far less likely to go into thermal runaway. This or NMC 622 might be what Nissan are going to use in the 60kWh LEAF due later this year.

CleanTechnica – 4 Mar 18

Exciting Developments In NMC 811 Lithium Battery Technology - CleanTechnica

The trend toward long-range electric vehicles has motivated researchers to find ways to improve existing battery cell chemistries. NMC 811 seems next up to bat.

Est. reading time: 3 minutes

LEAF 30kWh pack:

Andrew_Debbie · 2018-06-23T21:00:28.000Z

BMW i3 battery pack assembly.