TESLA MODEL S BATTERY TEARDOWN

Tom_Tom · 2018-06-21T12:07:18.000Z

Muto:

My chiropractor has a Leaf and likes it but he only uses it local so have no idea of true range.
Thanks for the info.

The LEAF 2 (2018) is greatly improved from the original. Currently the battery is 40Kwh, but next year it will get a 60 Kwh version, presumably with 50% more range.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLcL5SemC_M for a first-drive review, suggesting a real range of about 170 miles.

And a full test demonstrating how well the regeneration works (this channel is very good for all things EV): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_SEs9I9sptw

PS: the LEAF is also seat up for vehicle-grid charging similar to using it as a power wall, but cleverer.

Tom_Tom · 2018-06-21T18:01:01.000Z

Muto:

BMW or the German’s in general are gonna eat their lunch.

Don’t forget Jaguar with the I-PACE, who have beaten the Germans to market with a real Tesla competitor.

Oops double post (deleted).

I meaned to second post https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MocHcoBm4bU

Where Jonny elaborates. Watch it through to the end.

Andrew_Debbie · 2018-06-21T20:21:27.000Z

Muto:

My chiropractor has a Leaf and likes it but he only uses it local so have no idea of true range.

My 2017 LEAF 30 is good for about 125miles in Summer and 100 in Winter. Here in North Wales “Summer” is about 65 degrees F and sunny on good days.

The current 2018 LEAF 40 is supposed to be around 160 summer miles and perhaps 140 in Winter. Nissan say a 60kWh version is on the way later this year.

JasonWW · 2018-06-21T21:20:39.000Z

Andrew_Debbie:

Muto:

My chiropractor has a Leaf and likes it but he only uses it local so have no idea of true range.

My 2017 LEAF 30 is good for about 125miles in Summer and 100 in Winter. Here in North Wales “Summer” is about 65 degrees F and sunny on good days.

The current 2018 LEAF 40 is supposed to be around 160 summer miles and perhaps 140 in Winter. Nissan say a 60kWh version is on the way later this year.

Do you have any idea about what the Leafs battery is made up of?
Is it lithium 18650’s?

Henk4U2 · 2018-06-21T22:23:43.000Z

No it is not. Look here for the 2018 specs.

JasonWW · 2018-06-21T23:11:11.000Z

Ah, so the Leaf is using Lithium batteries in a thin pouch format with about half the energy density of an 18650 cell.

I think Tesla’s got the right idea partnering with Panasonic and using a more common, cylindrical cell with mucher higher energy density.

Tom_Tom · 2018-06-21T23:14:52.000Z

Agreed. Nobody (except Tesla with their Gigafactories) would use a great heap of 18650s. or 17500s, or whatever.

Rumour is that the Nissan 2019 cells (60 Kwh vs 40 Kwh) will use LG technology, and improved thermal management.

See my link to see how Jaguar are using heat pumps (actually the air-conditioning backwards) to keep the cells at ideal temperature.

Jaguar, Nissan, and all the German makers, have different ideas. Which will prevail. Not coming to a torch to you soon. And they know how to make desirable cars.

This would all have happened without Tesla, but they showed what could be done with extreme stuff. I don’t think they are ready for the mass-market, or mass manufacture.

Tom_Tom · 2018-06-21T23:16:36.000Z

JasonWW:

Ah, so the Leaf is using Lithium batteries in a thin pouch format with about half the energy density of an 18650 cell.

I think Tesla’s got the right idea partnering with Panasonic and using a more common, cylindrical cell with mucher higher energy density.

You couldn’t be more wrong, in every respect. But time will tell.

joechina · 2018-06-22T16:49:09.000Z

What Tesla did was they over sized the power supply in oder to get a long live time of the battery pac. They said (that was before ludicrous mode), if you drive on the highway with full speed, you would discharge with only 1/4 C-rate!
One of their paradigm change was to put 4- to 8-times more batteries in the car as normal.

Tom_Tom · 2018-06-23T15:10:58.000Z

Edit: It’s a mad mad mad mad world. (correct quote).

Just today Airbus and BMW have stated their support of UK post Brexit. The unelected lot in Brussels want to punish us.

BMW make 1000 Minis per day here, and Airbus wings (and engines) are made here too.

And 15% of the F35 (mostly the clever bits).

As well as most Hondas, Nissans, Toyotas for the EU market. And of course Jaguar and LandRover. Plus the exotics, McLaren, Aston, Lotus, Morgan etc.

Never mind secret stuff like Galileo, and security sharing from e.g GCHQ/Mi5

Nose, face, spite, cutoff comes to mind.

Where will this end ?

WalkIntoTheLight · 2018-06-22T19:47:42.000Z

It’s an interesting video, but I’m not really sure I’d want to buy their recycled cells they rescue from an auto-wrecker.

Tom_Tom · 2018-06-22T20:14:23.000Z

Tom Tom:

It’s a mad mad world.
Where will this end ?

Perhaps with the Child-Catcher. Already happened .

Tom_Tom · 2018-06-23T15:46:55.000Z

More laughs and giggles, whilst making a point or two:

Andrew_Debbie · 2018-06-23T21:04:51.000Z

JasonWW:

Ah, so the Leaf is using Lithium batteries in a thin pouch format with about half the energy density of an 18650 cell.

I think Tesla’s got the right idea partnering with Panasonic and using a more common, cylindrical cell with mucher higher energy density.

Just about everyone else use pouch cells assembled into prismatic modules.

Tesla are alone in using NCA 18650 / 21700 cells. Choosing NCA over NMC, more or less forced the rest of the design. Bad things happen if an NCA battery gets hot, so Tesla have to stick to a size that is easy to cool. Also they need packaging that will contain a single cell going into thermal runaway.

The only other production electric cars with NCA batteries are the ones with Tesla powertrains.

NMC batteries may not have the per-cell energy density of an NCA 18650 but can get by without liquid cooling loops. Some designs don’t need active cooling at all. This is a cost savings and and of the reasons why a LEAF is 1/4 the price of a Model S.

NMC energy density is improving. Nissan have gone from 24, to 30 and now 40kWh in the same form factor. 24 to 30 was partially better packaging. None of them have active cooling although maybe the 40 could use it.

The latest NMC 811 chemistry is close to or better than what Tesla / Panasonic are getting with NCA. At the same time it is far less likely to go into thermal runaway. This or NMC 622 might be what Nissan are going to use in the 60kWh LEAF due later this year.

CleanTechnica – 4 Mar 18

Exciting Developments In NMC 811 Lithium Battery Technology - CleanTechnica

The trend toward long-range electric vehicles has motivated researchers to find ways to improve existing battery cell chemistries. NMC 811 seems next up to bat.

Est. reading time: 3 minutes

LEAF 30kWh pack:

Andrew_Debbie · 2018-06-23T21:00:28.000Z

BMW i3 battery pack assembly.

stolikat · 2018-06-23T23:02:37.000Z

I love watching those factory clips. Worker ergonomics is as important as efficiency in a German auto plant. Notice how the workers never bend below their waist.

Speed4goal · 2018-06-23T23:30:44.000Z

WalkIntoTheLight:

It’s an interesting video, but I’m not really sure I’d want to buy their recycled cells they rescue from an auto-wrecker.

Why not? The cells seem to be the most secure part of the whole vehicle. Secured like a safe literally. The car must have been totalled to not be worth fixing. But that box doesn’t have a scratch on it. Maybe it’s just me I don’t fear lithium batteries like the hype makes it out to be. I’ve had more bad experiences with nihm then lithium

Couchmaster · 2018-06-24T03:18:27.000Z

The last year of the Obama Presidency saw close to $10 Billion committed for R&D on alternative energy. A goodly part of that was battery technology. I haven’t followed the current Energy dept but given the deficit rose last budget, I suspect that spending is continuing. Certainly privaate enterprise is spending on battery R&D. Everybody’s batteries 5 years from how will be much better.

Thanks for the Tesla tear down vid, good stuff. Given how much power must be in one of those battery packs, and the fact that folks will be messing with formerly wrecked cars with batteries in potentially bad condition, how long until the first fatality I wonder?

Andrew_Debbie · 2018-06-24T09:14:06.000Z

Speed4goal:

. Maybe it’s just me I don’t fear lithium batteries like the hype makes it out to be. I’ve had more bad experiences with nihm then lithium

There is more than one kind of Lithium battery. The kind Tesla in cars use can catch fire if they get too hot.

The car has multiple safety systems to stop this from happening. The raw cells have far less, if anything. There could be a thermal fuse but who knows if the older cells have that.

A single cell isn’t going to cause too much trouble, but I worry about home made PowerWalls and home built EVs using Tesla / Panasonic NCA cells. I’ve seen some DIY projects that appear to have no thermal management.

Even in the car, the batteries do occasionally (well very rarely) catch on fire. To be fair, fires in combustion engine cars are far more common but they don’t get press attention.

Electrek – 16 Jun 18

Tesla Model S battery caught on fire 'without accident', says owner - Tesla...

The battery pack of a Tesla Model S caught on fire yesterday in Los Angeles. The owner says that the...

Est. reading time: 3 minutes

Tesla’s Powerwall use NMC cells,. Tesla say this is for improved cycle life but I wonder if it also because they want to reduce the risk of thermal runaway.

TESLARATI – 12 May 17

Tesla battery expert says they've doubled lithium-ion battery cell life

The following post was originally published on EVANNEX Tesla [NASDAQ: TSLA] is not standing still when it comes to improving lithium-ion technology and reducing battery costs. It was recently reported that Tesla’s battery partner, Panasonic,...

Est. reading time: 3 minutes

Tom_Tom · 2018-06-24T15:57:53.000Z

Andrew_Debbie:

BMW i3 battery pack assembly.

https://youtu.be/sIan-1Eotlc

Here’s another: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwbkxVpoYEM

This is how the big boys are doing it. Musky is currently camped out in the factory trying to get it together whilst sweating his workers very hard (72 hour weeks), and they are not happy. That’s not going to work long=term.

Fortunately he has a brilliant team at Space X so doesn’t need to keep his eye on that ball at the moment.

The boring company, and hyperloop could do with his attention though, if anything is going to come of them.

PS: he didn’t invent Tesla, that was a couple of guys from Chevvy, who knew they could do it much better. Musk just used his money to take over, and has done a great job, but I think when history comes to judge, it will just have been a flash in the pan.

Grandiosity indeed, but sometimes we need that.