TESLA MODEL S BATTERY TEARDOWN

JasonWW · 2018-06-21T21:20:39.000Z

Andrew_Debbie:

Muto:

My chiropractor has a Leaf and likes it but he only uses it local so have no idea of true range.

My 2017 LEAF 30 is good for about 125miles in Summer and 100 in Winter. Here in North Wales “Summer” is about 65 degrees F and sunny on good days.

The current 2018 LEAF 40 is supposed to be around 160 summer miles and perhaps 140 in Winter. Nissan say a 60kWh version is on the way later this year.

Do you have any idea about what the Leafs battery is made up of?
Is it lithium 18650’s?

Henk4U2 · 2018-06-21T22:23:43.000Z

No it is not. Look here for the 2018 specs.

JasonWW · 2018-06-21T23:11:11.000Z

Ah, so the Leaf is using Lithium batteries in a thin pouch format with about half the energy density of an 18650 cell.

I think Tesla’s got the right idea partnering with Panasonic and using a more common, cylindrical cell with mucher higher energy density.

Tom_Tom · 2018-06-21T23:14:52.000Z

Agreed. Nobody (except Tesla with their Gigafactories) would use a great heap of 18650s. or 17500s, or whatever.

Rumour is that the Nissan 2019 cells (60 Kwh vs 40 Kwh) will use LG technology, and improved thermal management.

See my link to see how Jaguar are using heat pumps (actually the air-conditioning backwards) to keep the cells at ideal temperature.

Jaguar, Nissan, and all the German makers, have different ideas. Which will prevail. Not coming to a torch to you soon. And they know how to make desirable cars.

This would all have happened without Tesla, but they showed what could be done with extreme stuff. I don’t think they are ready for the mass-market, or mass manufacture.

Tom_Tom · 2018-06-21T23:16:36.000Z

JasonWW:

Ah, so the Leaf is using Lithium batteries in a thin pouch format with about half the energy density of an 18650 cell.

I think Tesla’s got the right idea partnering with Panasonic and using a more common, cylindrical cell with mucher higher energy density.

You couldn’t be more wrong, in every respect. But time will tell.

joechina · 2018-06-22T16:49:09.000Z

What Tesla did was they over sized the power supply in oder to get a long live time of the battery pac. They said (that was before ludicrous mode), if you drive on the highway with full speed, you would discharge with only 1/4 C-rate!
One of their paradigm change was to put 4- to 8-times more batteries in the car as normal.

Tom_Tom · 2018-06-23T15:10:58.000Z

Edit: It’s a mad mad mad mad world. (correct quote).

Just today Airbus and BMW have stated their support of UK post Brexit. The unelected lot in Brussels want to punish us.

BMW make 1000 Minis per day here, and Airbus wings (and engines) are made here too.

And 15% of the F35 (mostly the clever bits).

As well as most Hondas, Nissans, Toyotas for the EU market. And of course Jaguar and LandRover. Plus the exotics, McLaren, Aston, Lotus, Morgan etc.

Never mind secret stuff like Galileo, and security sharing from e.g GCHQ/Mi5

Nose, face, spite, cutoff comes to mind.

Where will this end ?

WalkIntoTheLight · 2018-06-22T19:47:42.000Z

It’s an interesting video, but I’m not really sure I’d want to buy their recycled cells they rescue from an auto-wrecker.

Tom_Tom · 2018-06-22T20:14:23.000Z

Tom Tom:

It’s a mad mad world.
Where will this end ?

Perhaps with the Child-Catcher. Already happened .

Tom_Tom · 2018-06-23T15:46:55.000Z

More laughs and giggles, whilst making a point or two:

Andrew_Debbie · 2018-06-23T21:04:51.000Z

JasonWW:

Ah, so the Leaf is using Lithium batteries in a thin pouch format with about half the energy density of an 18650 cell.

I think Tesla’s got the right idea partnering with Panasonic and using a more common, cylindrical cell with mucher higher energy density.

Just about everyone else use pouch cells assembled into prismatic modules.

Tesla are alone in using NCA 18650 / 21700 cells. Choosing NCA over NMC, more or less forced the rest of the design. Bad things happen if an NCA battery gets hot, so Tesla have to stick to a size that is easy to cool. Also they need packaging that will contain a single cell going into thermal runaway.

The only other production electric cars with NCA batteries are the ones with Tesla powertrains.

NMC batteries may not have the per-cell energy density of an NCA 18650 but can get by without liquid cooling loops. Some designs don’t need active cooling at all. This is a cost savings and and of the reasons why a LEAF is 1/4 the price of a Model S.

NMC energy density is improving. Nissan have gone from 24, to 30 and now 40kWh in the same form factor. 24 to 30 was partially better packaging. None of them have active cooling although maybe the 40 could use it.

The latest NMC 811 chemistry is close to or better than what Tesla / Panasonic are getting with NCA. At the same time it is far less likely to go into thermal runaway. This or NMC 622 might be what Nissan are going to use in the 60kWh LEAF due later this year.

CleanTechnica – 4 Mar 18

Exciting Developments In NMC 811 Lithium Battery Technology - CleanTechnica

The trend toward long-range electric vehicles has motivated researchers to find ways to improve existing battery cell chemistries. NMC 811 seems next up to bat.

Est. reading time: 3 minutes

LEAF 30kWh pack:

Andrew_Debbie · 2018-06-23T21:00:28.000Z

BMW i3 battery pack assembly.

stolikat · 2018-06-23T23:02:37.000Z

I love watching those factory clips. Worker ergonomics is as important as efficiency in a German auto plant. Notice how the workers never bend below their waist.

Speed4goal · 2018-06-23T23:30:44.000Z

WalkIntoTheLight:

It’s an interesting video, but I’m not really sure I’d want to buy their recycled cells they rescue from an auto-wrecker.

Why not? The cells seem to be the most secure part of the whole vehicle. Secured like a safe literally. The car must have been totalled to not be worth fixing. But that box doesn’t have a scratch on it. Maybe it’s just me I don’t fear lithium batteries like the hype makes it out to be. I’ve had more bad experiences with nihm then lithium

Couchmaster · 2018-06-24T03:18:27.000Z

The last year of the Obama Presidency saw close to $10 Billion committed for R&D on alternative energy. A goodly part of that was battery technology. I haven’t followed the current Energy dept but given the deficit rose last budget, I suspect that spending is continuing. Certainly privaate enterprise is spending on battery R&D. Everybody’s batteries 5 years from how will be much better.

Thanks for the Tesla tear down vid, good stuff. Given how much power must be in one of those battery packs, and the fact that folks will be messing with formerly wrecked cars with batteries in potentially bad condition, how long until the first fatality I wonder?

Andrew_Debbie · 2018-06-24T09:14:06.000Z

Speed4goal:

. Maybe it’s just me I don’t fear lithium batteries like the hype makes it out to be. I’ve had more bad experiences with nihm then lithium

There is more than one kind of Lithium battery. The kind Tesla in cars use can catch fire if they get too hot.

The car has multiple safety systems to stop this from happening. The raw cells have far less, if anything. There could be a thermal fuse but who knows if the older cells have that.

A single cell isn’t going to cause too much trouble, but I worry about home made PowerWalls and home built EVs using Tesla / Panasonic NCA cells. I’ve seen some DIY projects that appear to have no thermal management.

Even in the car, the batteries do occasionally (well very rarely) catch on fire. To be fair, fires in combustion engine cars are far more common but they don’t get press attention.

Electrek – 16 Jun 18

Tesla Model S battery caught on fire 'without accident', says owner - Tesla...

The battery pack of a Tesla Model S caught on fire yesterday in Los Angeles. The owner says that the...

Est. reading time: 3 minutes

Tesla’s Powerwall use NMC cells,. Tesla say this is for improved cycle life but I wonder if it also because they want to reduce the risk of thermal runaway.

TESLARATI – 12 May 17

Tesla battery expert says they've doubled lithium-ion battery cell life

The following post was originally published on EVANNEX Tesla [NASDAQ: TSLA] is not standing still when it comes to improving lithium-ion technology and reducing battery costs. It was recently reported that Tesla’s battery partner, Panasonic,...

Est. reading time: 3 minutes

Tom_Tom · 2018-06-24T15:57:53.000Z

Andrew_Debbie:

BMW i3 battery pack assembly.

https://youtu.be/sIan-1Eotlc

Here’s another: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwbkxVpoYEM

This is how the big boys are doing it. Musky is currently camped out in the factory trying to get it together whilst sweating his workers very hard (72 hour weeks), and they are not happy. That’s not going to work long=term.

Fortunately he has a brilliant team at Space X so doesn’t need to keep his eye on that ball at the moment.

The boring company, and hyperloop could do with his attention though, if anything is going to come of them.

PS: he didn’t invent Tesla, that was a couple of guys from Chevvy, who knew they could do it much better. Musk just used his money to take over, and has done a great job, but I think when history comes to judge, it will just have been a flash in the pan.

Grandiosity indeed, but sometimes we need that.

Speed4goal · 2018-06-24T16:48:04.000Z

Andrew_Debbie:

Speed4goal:

. Maybe it’s just me I don’t fear lithium batteries like the hype makes it out to be. I’ve had more bad experiences with nihm then lithium

There is more than one kind of Lithium battery. The kind Tesla in cars use can catch fire if they get too hot.

The car has multiple safety systems to stop this from happening. The raw cells have far less, if anything. There could be a thermal fuse but who knows if the older cells have that.

A single cell isn’t going to cause too much trouble, but I worry about home made PowerWalls and home built EVs using Tesla / Panasonic NCA cells. I’ve seen some DIY projects that appear to have no thermal management.

Even in the car, the batteries do occasionally (well very rarely) catch on fire. To be fair, fires in combustion engine cars are far more common but they don’t get press attention.

Tesla Model S battery caught on fire 'without accident', says owner - Tesla is investigating | Electrek

Tesla’s Powerwall use NMC cells,. Tesla say this is for improved cycle life but I wonder if it also because they want to reduce the risk of thermal runaway.

Tesla battery expert says they've doubled lithium-ion battery cell life

Yes but the tempature is way up there. Near 400 degrees even higher like 450 for combustion for some chemistries… The batteries should never see anythibg close to thermal runaway tempatures even during very hard use. Unless the vehicle or powerwall catches on fire. Even the cells hitting 212degrees F won’t do anything but lower the life of the cell. Think of literally the billions of devices now powered by lithium, phone, tablets, dozens of medical devices, cameras, cars, jump starters, planes, boats, then the rc crowd etc. And you have maybe a few dozen instances yearly and a majority of those are from cheap China junk. That’s less then, .0001 failure rate compared to the cells in use. To make newer generation hybrid cells go off which every cell that isn’t a lipo is a hybrid you really have to almost toss it directly into the flame. There are no true Imr batteries anymore everyone is running the hype of the name of being so safe. I’ll include a link below. And they have cid and ptc in the cell already. Unprotected cells already have 2 safety devices in them. Most Chinese cells don’t have these. Letting a cell vent is more safer then not letting the pressure out like some bad Chinese cells. And drawing to much current for to long the ptc breaks the connection cell is dead no longer a risk. Unless exposed to fire.
But yes it’s so common knowledge gas vehicles burn by the thousands yearly. Do we see people calling for undestructable fuel lines. No we have these little thin walled flexible fuel lines. That rupture with just a medium force collision. And we run them right next to 1000 degree exhaust pipes. My opinion is the powers that be are going to nitpick lithium cars to death. To try to keep there record profits yearly now from gas. Keep it going as long as possible. Make it look so dangerous. Like that propaganda film back in the day to ban weed. Reefer Madness I think it’s called you should watch it. You see it in every movie car crash seen get the guy out its gonna blow. You see it on the cop shows chase ends car flips and catches fire. Why am I not seeing dozens of electric cars burning and exploding everytime they wreck. The instances are so few and inbetween like with lithium powered devices each instance makes national or world news it’s so rare. If every gas car or truck that caught fire was broadcast or gas powered equipment that’s all the news would consist of daily. Just above everyone knows someone or someone who knows someone that’s had a issue with gas powered equipment. I’ve had my mower catch grass on fire from the exhaust. Gas is way more dangerous in my opinion and we ride on 20 to 50 gallons everyday like its nothing. But it would looks like a ied went off when the system fails and ignites. In fact when I was in Iraq theybwould take a propane tank and wire a detonator to it and it would take out uparmored Humvee and cut people in half. That’s how dangerous gas under pressure is. Two or 3 of them or more can stop a tank in the right circumstances. Blow the tracks off and give everyone concussions. If not TBI. I’ve never heard of lithium battery bombs. We put sandbags on the floor with almost no leg room With a electric vehicle at least you might get a warning. Warning batteries dangerously hot please exit vehicle immediately or something. And not like a fuel line under the hood wearing out. And fuel lightly spraying under the hood on the intake and catching fire. Like my moms Oldsmobile did. Little pin prick in the rubber fuel line spraying on the hot intake poof

For the powerwall thing, I’d like to see the average statistics for electrical fires in homes without and homes with a powerwall either namebrand or DIY. I’m willing to be more houses have electrical fires without them then with powerwalls

From the battery Genius himself

Tom_Tom · 2018-06-24T18:32:51.000Z

Some more analysis:

The future is coming, sooner than some might think. I can’t wait.

WalkIntoTheLight · 2018-06-24T19:03:42.000Z

Speed4goal:

But yes it’s so common knowledge gas vehicles burn by the thousands yearly. Do we see people calling for undestructable fuel lines. No we have these little thin walled flexible fuel lines. That rupture with just a medium force collision. And we run them right next to 1000 degree exhaust pipes. My opinion is the powers that be are going to nitpick lithium cars to death. To try to keep there record profits yearly now from gas. Keep it going as long as possible. Make it look so dangerous.

Yes, but if the gasoline engine were invented today, it would never be allowed in consumer cars due to safety concerns.

I think the powers that be know this, and are already cutting lithium-ion powered cars some slack. They may not be perfectly safe, but the alternative is worse.

The only thing that makes lithium-ion batteries worse than gasoline, is that you can’t put a lithium-ion fire out since it has its own oxidizer.