Triple for throw.

rjd · 2019-02-14T19:02:36.000Z

EDIT~ After reading your replies I see I asked the wrong question, so this is hopefully the right one.

Using a Carclo 10507 optic and a single 18650 what is my best led choice to mamimize throw?

Is there a better 20-21mm triple optic for throw given I’ve only got room for a 7.5mm tall opticthan the 10507 and would that change the led choice?

ORIGINAL POST~
I do understand the contradiction of a triple and throw, but lets leave that to one side for the he moment
Using a single 18650 cell torch (dqg tiny 18650) and say a Carclo 10507 optic (open to suggestions even a tir single if it’s possible) what is my best led option for throw?
I gather de-doming is also better?
Thanks Richard.

toddcshoe · 2019-02-14T19:23:32.000Z

Here is a thread about turning a Tiny 18650 into a triple. Might have some good info for you on it.

DQG tiny 4 18650 triple mod 18650 Flashlights

I’ve read a lot on this and the “other” flashlight forum. Learned a lot in the past few months, thanks for all the great info! Hereby my first mod review! Warning, quite picture heavy… I liked the size & looks of the DQG 18650 for a while. I like small EDC pocket rockets. Usually I keep a modded 10440 Thrunite Ti with me, but 18650 is nice for good runtimes. Modding it seemed quite a nice challenge, so I just started ordering the parts and see how far I could get Firelight2 did…

Cereal_killer · 2019-02-14T19:27:00.000Z

The Osram Olson SSL-80, with its 80° emitting angle is the most efficient LED for TIR optics. Even though it’s such a narrow beam it still uses a dome so it suffers less optical losses than a XP-L HI or other dedomed emitter would [in the same optic] giving it the highest cd per lm of any led when used with a TIR, even beating the throw king flat white 1mm2.

Its a 3030 so it is possible to reflow them on XP triple boards (tricky but doable) or I believe LED4Power has a carclo compatible 3030 triple mcpcb if you prefer.

You can get decent throw with more common emitters too but you said best…

Firelight2 · 2019-02-14T19:31:56.000Z

Throw is primarily determined by a few factors:

The intensity of the emitter. Think of this as “lumens per square mm of emitter surface”. Usually, but not always, small-die emitters have higher intensity. But because of their small surface area they produce less light overall.
The width of the reflector. Wider reflectors produce more throw.

A triple may have less throw than a single emitter light using the same emitter. Look at the surface of a triple and you’ll see dead space between the 3 reflector cones. In contrast a single emitter light probably has no wasted space. Beyond that, you can make a throwier triple by using more intense emitters (usually these have smaller dies and produce less light). Or you can use a big-head triple with large reflectors for each emitter.

Most compact triples use 20mm Carclo optics with very small reflectors. They tend to produce great floodbeams but are definitely not throwers.

In general, if you’re looking for a thrower, you’re probably better off going with a single-emitter. Another advantage of a single-emitter light is the hotspot will be narrower and you’re probably going to get less spill hitting at close-range. That’s important because if you’re looking at something far off in the distance, you don’t want the small amount of reflected light from that object to get swamped by much brighter light reflecting off objects right around you.

Firelight2 · 2019-02-14T19:34:25.000Z

Cereal_killer:

The Osram Olson SSL-80, with its 80° emitting angle is the most efficient LED for TIR optics. Even though it’s such a narrow beam it still uses a dome so it suffers less optical losses than a XP-L HI or other dedomed emitter would [in the same optic] giving it the highest cd per lm of any led when used with a TIR, even beating the throw king flat white 1mm2.

Its a 3030 so it is possible to reflow them on XP triple boards (tricky but doable) or I believe LED4Power has a carclo compatible 3030 triple mcpcb if you prefer.

You can get decent throw with more common emitters too but you said best…

Does emitting angle really matter with lights that use reflectors or TIRs? Even with a very wide emitting angle all of the light should hit the reflector and go out the front anyways.

I thought emitting angle only really mattered for aspheric lenses. With an aspheric lens light a narrower emitting angle is much better since less light is wasted into the sides of the bezel without hitting the lens.

Agro · 2019-02-14T19:49:45.000Z

Firelight2:

Cereal_killer:

The Osram Olson SSL-80, with its 80° emitting angle is the most efficient LED for TIR optics. Even though it’s such a narrow beam it still uses a dome so it suffers less optical losses than a XP-L HI or other dedomed emitter would [in the same optic] giving it the highest cd per lm of any led when used with a TIR, even beating the throw king flat white 1mm2.

Its a 3030 so it is possible to reflow them on XP triple boards (tricky but doable) or I believe LED4Power has a carclo compatible 3030 triple mcpcb if you prefer.

You can get decent throw with more common emitters too but you said best…

Does emitting angle really matter with lights that use reflectors or TIRs? Even with a very wide emitting angle all of the light should hit the reflector and go out the front anyways.

I thought emitting angle only really mattered for aspheric lenses. With an aspheric lens light a narrower emitting angle is much better since less light is wasted into the sides of the bezel without hitting the lens.

According to Carclo:
http://www.carclo-optics.com/optic-10507
10507 with SSL-80 is 88% efficient. Less efficient than with most emitters. cd/lm is similar to XP-E2 so it should be worse than White Flat.

I don’t believe it will give good throw.

Cereal_killer · 2019-02-14T19:48:35.000Z

Agro:

According to Carclo:
http://www.carclo-optics.com/optic-10507
10507 with SSL-80 is 88% efficient. Less efficient than with most emitters.

I don’t believe it will give good throw.

Interesting that Carclo specs otherwise and I don’t have a response other than I will pull up some Carclo data sheets and educate myself further before making broad statements like above on the subject.

Having said that, here’s literally just the first example of a ledil datasheet showing the ssl-80 as the clear leader.

Agro · 2019-02-14T19:56:27.000Z

Cereal_killer:

Agro:

According to Carclo:
http://www.carclo-optics.com/optic-10507
10507 with SSL-80 is 88% efficient. Less efficient than with most emitters.

I don’t believe it will give good throw.

Interesting that Carclo specs otherwise and I don’t have a response other than I will pull up some Carclo data sheets and educate myself further before making broad statements like above on the subject.

Having said that, here’s literally just the first example of a ledil datasheet showing the ssl-80 as the clear leader.

TBH I don’t view it as a clear leader. 1 mm² domed XP-E gives better intensity. Domeless 1 mm² LED should be even throwier.

Cereal_killer · 2019-02-14T20:06:52.000Z

By which metric are we comparing? By Cd/lm, for that particular Angie, the ssl80 is the winner.

I’m not arguing its NOT the best on the 10507 linked above, you’re right… I agree and will think on it more before making such broad statements as it’s clearly not the case.
I think we can both agree that in order to properly answer the OP’s questions we need to know the specific optic he’s considering, he’s asking a very broad question with no best answer. Single vs triple TIR is definitely gonna make a huge difference!

Agro · 2019-02-14T20:11:08.000Z

XP-E 14.7 cd/lm
SSL 80 11.0 cd/lm
SSL 150 17 cd/lm
Seoul Z5 19 cd/lm

Just the datasheet from your link…

Cereal_killer · 2019-02-14T20:23:10.000Z

Wow you’re right, ok my fault. I was reading oslon ssl and not noticing one was 150 and one was 80 so I was thinking it was an ssl80 that was 17 cd/lm. Sorry about that. I didn’t realize the ssl150 existed, the ssl80’s datasheet touts it as being good for optics because of the narrow emission angle so I just didn’t imagine there was a 150° version with that type of marketing strategy and all…

Didn’t even see that seoul at the very bottom either…

Youre right, you win.

We still need OP to pick an optic to be able to say which emitter choice for throw.

EasyB · 2019-02-14T20:20:00.000Z

I don’t think cd/lumen is really the most relevant metric. What we want for throw is higher cd. In my experience TIRs don’t behave that differently than reflectors in that a higher luminance LED will give higher cd in the same reflector/TIR. So to answer the original question I think a triple white flat would be a good choice for throw.

Agro · 2019-02-14T20:55:11.000Z

Cereal_killer:

We still need OP to pick an optic to be able to say which emitter choice for throw.

Not really….
Firelight is right. (I like the sound of it). Throw = surface luminosity * area. Even if some light escapes to TIR sides - the light from the centre of the emitter doesn’t. And the centre is what produces the hottest point of the beam. Higher surface luminosity always wins.
With TIR it’s slightly different because they are produced to focus an emitter that’s placed at certain height. If one emitter has different height than another - the one with lower surface luminosity might actually win as long as it’s closer to the designed height.
However modifying optic’s legs should fix that.

So White Flat would be the best emitter.
However with Carclo - the host will overheat FAST. A Synios might be a better option………but focusing that is going to be a challenge.

Agro · 2019-02-14T20:28:53.000Z

Single LED thrower in Tiny is going to be a challenge as well.
I don’t think there’s any length to work with so even adding a DTP MCPCB + driver is problematic.

BTW Ledil Satu may or may not be better than Carclo.

rjd · 2019-02-14T20:50:18.000Z

Thanks for your replies I’ve edited the op to ask what I wanted to know.

After reading your replies I see I asked the wrong question, so this is hopefully the right one.

Using a Carclo 10507 optic and a single 18650 what is my best led choice to mamimize throw?

Is there a better 20-21mm triple optic for throw than the 10507 given I’ve only got room for a 7.5mm tall optic and would that change the led choice?

Agro · 2019-02-14T20:48:30.000Z

Satu should fit. Someone on Fonarevka did careful measurements.
I can’t find it now but I see some throw measurements of these lenses that they did:
http://forum.fonarevka.ru/showthread.php?t=5616
Carclo is throwier.

LouieAtienza · 2019-02-14T21:11:45.000Z

You can get cheap 5mm LEDs down to 15deg. beam angle, that doesn’t mean it will be the best for a TIR optic. There are LEDs that have a very high cd/lumen number with the 10507 like a Cree XQ-A, but it barely puts out 1W power.

With the TIR you don’t necessarily need an LED with a super low emitting angle because it is designed to collect and collimate the light coming from a very wide angle

Firelight2 · 2019-02-14T21:15:28.000Z

For a 20mm triple, isn’t the best setup for maximum throw 10507 optic with Oslon flat?

rjd · 2019-02-14T21:25:25.000Z

Cereal_killer:

You can get decent throw with more common emitters too but you said best…

I did didn’t I?

If I asked for common emitters what would you suggest?

kiriba-ru · 2019-02-15T07:21:15.000Z

10507 can throw very well with tiny die leds (osram flat and etc.). Problem that nobody want to invest in a batch of suitable boards.