Trustfire X100 7000 lumen big host temperature testing (78 watts)

2100 · 2018-10-18T23:30:54.000Z

SKV89:

The X100 has a 4x26650 battery tube whereas the TR-J20 has a 3x32650 battery tube so the weight of the battery tube should be the same. Let’s assume the battery tube weigh 200g, that means the weight of the head would be:

X100 head = 389g
TR-J20 head = 1279g

It is the mass in the head that makes all the difference in thermal performance. There is about 3.3x more mass in the TR-J20. The surface area of the TR-J20 is probably 2x that of the X100. So the thermal performance of the TR-J20 is probably 6.6x that of the X100.

Actually, the X100 head is not 389g.
I measured mine to be 485g. Anyway, not too far off i guess.
But alright, lets take it that the TR-J20 head is indeed 1279g in mass for a moment, 2.6X more than the X100 head. And surface area is 2 times as what you have mentioned.

The TR-J20 uses more emitters, which makes it more efficient.

For example, the ROT66 256g w/ 9x emitters can maintain 1,400 lumens, whereas the Convoy S2+ copper 170g w/ single emitter gets too hot to hold at 700 lumens after about 10 minutes.

Actually i just returned to the hobby and was wondering with all these new efficient emitters if we are now able to hit 10k lumens plus for a longer duration now. There is no need to be indefinite (4 x 18650s would go empty anyway :D). It could be 30 minutes as you previously mentioned, it could be even lesser. Just wanna find the “spot”, ie 10000 lumens 8 minutes, 1000g.

Well if the TR-J20 were to be running at 7000 lumens, then yes for sure the lumens efficiency is going to be better. But i believe the original point is whether or not a light could be doing 10k+ lumens for a good period of time, be it 30 minutes, indefinitely etc. If not, maybe we can shoot for lower durations, which is more practical.
I also have a quest, if practically possible, to find a good 10k+ lumens light which can operate for longer durations, be it 15 minutes, 30 minutes etc.

Yes the TR-J20 uses more emitters (12 x XM-L), but actually in this case it goes like this.
X100 = 7 x XM-L = 7000 lumens max driven (see Match’s output test in 1st post), 78W.
TR-J20 = 12 x XM-L= 12000 lumens max driven. 133W,
The “lumens efficiency” is the same, and wattage scales up accordingly.

I remember reading people were able to run the TR-J20 at 1x,xxx lumens indefinitely. Too difficult to search them up now.

Well I believe it could still be possible if the light is on a tailstand and it is outdoors in a cold sub-zero climate with some wind though. The light could start off at say 0 deg C with ambient at –15 deg C, and the temperature delta between the head and ambient would be larger, the convection heat dissipation would be better as well.

I measured 67 deg C at the head and close to 50 deg C for the handle at just 7 mins for the X100 (485g) for 7k lumens, and remember this is with a small fan blowing at it. Ambient was at 30 deg C (my country ughh!). At maybe around the 15th minute (I didn’t get the exact time stamp) I got 82 deg C for the head and still rising. This is only possible as i am running direct drive, no driver electronics to poof.

2.6X more mass and 2X more surface area. 1.7X higher wattage.

Impossible to handhold at 50 deg C without gloves. And probably starting to risk the driver electronics which is going to be operating much higher temps.

2100 · 2018-10-18T23:42:10.000Z

Of course that is with XM-Ls, literally nobody uses XM-Ls nowadays, except for chinese super budgetlights meant for the chinese domestic market.

But we also have the answer for today’s emitters.
Take 3pcs of BLF Q8, 400g each that’s 1.2kg mass, same as the X100. (just for info, with batteries this bumps it to 600g total weight, or 1.8kg for 3pcs)
4 x XP-L = 5000 lumens at 1250 lumens each emitter, 3 pcs give 15k lumens.

It’d hit thermal regulation and ramps down at the 3 minute mark.

It’s probably at this level with a 1.2kg (empty weight) light at 15k lumens with similar efficiency.

2100 · 2018-10-18T23:50:58.000Z

Anyway, just some measurements for my BLF Q8.
Steps down at around 2 mins 45 secs.
54 deg C head 43 deg body tube.

Extrapolating, that’d be 1200g and 15k lumens.

It’s actually starting to get uncomfortable to hold for more than 10 seconds actually, though not impossible to continue holding by enduring it, after step-down.

2100 · 2018-10-18T23:56:25.000Z

Or a Haikelite MT09R with triple 70.2s, 20k lumens thereabouts, 600g.

Steps down in approx 1 minute (not sure what temp is it programmed at). Lets say that the host is doubled and it’s 1.2kg that’d be 2 minutes thereabouts?

Cut the lumens by half, that extends to 4 minutes? All very rough figures of course, but we can get a decent idea on how it’s going to be.

SKV89 · 2018-10-19T02:26:37.000Z

The MT09R is an extremely bad example. Those three emitters are driven way beyond the specified operation range and the efficiency and heat output is extreme. Also the MT09R does not really have any fins so significantly less surface area. Maybe 1/3 to 1/4 the surface area of the TR-J20. If you run the emitters within the operation range, the efficiency is much higher and runs much cooler.

A better comparison would be the 9xLED of the ROT66. The head weighs 143.6g and can maintain 1,400 lumens at comfortable temps. Assuming the head of the TR-J20 weighs 1,300g (probably more after I weighed a few different battery tubes that weigh less than I thought), using your analogy it can sustain 12,674 lumens until the batteries run down. The DX80 is also a good comparison since it has alot of emitters and the head probably weighs about 700g would be my guess. The DX80 can sustain 7,000 lumens for 1hr 34mins or as long as the batteries can maintain voltage. Using your analogy, the TR-J20 would equate to at least 14,000 lumens of continuous output. Also both of these lights have no where near as much fins and surface area as the TR-J20. However, the driver in the TR-J20 is probably nowhere near as efficient as these two lights.

SKV89 · 2018-10-19T03:30:24.000Z

Another good example is the X80 and X80GT. Weighs only 330g. I guestimate 260g in the head, but can maintain 4000 lumens for 1.7 hours.

ACEBEAM

X80GT Powerful Flashlight

X80GT is a powerful searchlight. Small in size like a coke can, very suitable for carrying in a narrow space such as a cave. The 18 LED lamp beads are driven by a high-efficiency circuit and reach an astonishing 32500lm brightness.

Extrapolating would yield 20,000 lumens continuous for 1,300g head. Again in reality it’s not an apple to apple comparison, but I do believe with the right drivers and emitters, it would not be difficult for the TR-J20 to sustain 10k+ lumens.

2100 · 2018-10-19T04:17:32.000Z

SKV89:

Another good example is the X80 and X80GT. Weighs only 330g. I guestimate 260g in the head, but can maintain 4000 lumens for 1.7 hours.
X80GT Powerful Flashlight|AceBeam® Official Store | Flashlights, Tactical Lights

Extrapolating would yield 20,000 lumens continuous for 1,300g head. Again in reality it’s not an apple to apple comparison, but I do believe with the right drivers and emitters, it would not be difficult for the TR-J20 to sustain 10k+ lumens.

Actually we do not need to go the X80/GT route.

I did a search, think we already have the answer with the 70.2 and underdriven in the top dogs with Acebeam X70 and Imalent MS12. I am not sure if active cooling is needed for your said 30 mins duration, but i believe it’d have kicked in?

We’d definitely need a light equipped with 12 x XHP 70.2 (basically 48pcs of XP-Ls ).
The X70 is 1.819kg with battery pack (prob around 1.4kg empty) and a 119mm head. (TR-J20 91mm for comparison, both are somewhat similar league i guess)
The MS12 is 1.740kg with battery pack and 129mm head.

6 watts would give you approx 1.1k lumens from each 70.2 at those drive levels.

2100 · 2018-10-19T04:51:04.000Z

SKV89:

Another good example is the X80 and X80GT. Weighs only 330g. I guestimate 260g in the head, but can maintain 4000 lumens for 1.7 hours.
X80GT Powerful Flashlight|AceBeam® Official Store | Flashlights, Tactical Lights

Extrapolating would yield 20,000 lumens continuous for 1,300g head…

Another problem is that these lights are also probably driven to very very hot levels, so hot that it’s practically unusable without a sling. In a review i saw, the X45 (4 x XHP 70.2) at 700g hitting thermal regulation at 167 deg C or 75 deg C at the head. That’s crazy.
4 pcs of XHP 70.2 is actually underdriven at 12k lumens, we need to go with more emitters to increase efficiency.

The BLF Q8 is doing 55 deg C head and body at 43 deg C is already close to being too hot to hold.

But if we are just talking about whether its technically possible and driver electronics wise, it’s ok to jam in more emitters into the 91mm head. Even the batteries are going to be a bit sketchy with the head that hot without active cooling…

So for sure the emitter choice + number of emitters is going to be key points.

PS. Actually in terms of practical use, my father in law and his workers for their commercial use in plantations/birds nest inspection have been using HIDs for many years (since 2010), though those metal can HIDs are more like 4000-ish lumens. Able to sustain half an hour no issue. I am wondering if current LED technology can do it. It probably can, just at a price. :money_mouth_face:

2100 · 2018-10-19T04:52:18.000Z

This is 700g and 4 x 70.2, 14k lumens ie driven at just a bit under the max capable 17.1k lumens as per datasheet. Quite interesting review.

I am wondering if anybody has done measurements in their review with the 12 x 70.2 X70 and MS12.

Go to 7 min 40 seconds. 167 deg F (75 deg C) at 3.00 mins, then it kicked down.

YouTube

The 16500 lumen Acebeam X45 is the brightest flashlight yet

In 2017 Acebeam released the brightest production flashlight ever with the X45. This review puts it to the test. I tell you everything you need to know abou...

2100 · 2018-10-19T04:36:02.000Z

Gezuz, 540 usd for the Acebeam X70 and that’s on taobao. :innocent:

I am wondering if just for fun, getting 12pcs of those cheap Chinese 7070 emitters (sort of a copy of the real Cree XHP 70.2) and modding the TR-J20 reflector to fit would work for 12k lumens, with a suitable driver, of course.
They are just 3 usd each on Taobao.

Nah….probably focus would be off.

SKV89 · 2018-10-19T05:43:29.000Z

From what I read, the X80GT can maintain 4000 lumens and stay just warm. The DX80 at 10minutes in measures 135F in the head and 110F in the handle so very manageable.

2100 · 2018-10-19T06:00:24.000Z

Been thinking about it, so if it really takes 12 x XHP 70.2 and big/heavy hosts, what choice do we normal BLFers with real budgets really have, if we really want to go past the 5-digit lumens mark and do extended periods, be it 15 mins, 30 mins or 60 mins? Esp for folks like me having 30 deg C nights and not - 30 deg C in Canada/Norway so no assistance from a large temperature delta.

We do have a relatively cheap rmb 318 host on Taobao which i was able to bargain it down to. I believe we’d be able to get it till 268rmb / usd 38.6, as per 1688.com listing.
4 pieces (12 emitters) would run usd 154. You can use 16 x 18650 and each battery would not go above 5A i think, or you can run 8 cells with higher amp batteries.
4 x 458g = 1832g, and 4 times the surface area of 1 host.

Have you seen this 3 x XHP70 soda can light before? (similar to Haikelite MT03) LED Flashlights – General Info

Hi guys! After a break of about 5 years, i am getting back into the hobby again! Found the BLF Q8 and ordered one. Got it at usd 37 shipped, can’t be beaten value with 5000+ lumens and capable of hitting 6000 with spring bypass, good batts? 50k cd, neutral white? Sign me up! I saw the Sofirn BLF Q8 with XP-L HI (100k cd) and it is a really tough call, in the end i still prefer the original one with neutral white. Ok I came across this puppy. RMB 358 (usd 52). Not exactly the same design as th…

Actual numbers measured by a BLFer. It’s a 6500-7000 lumens light, with a lumens drop after 30 seconds similar to a Sofirn Q8, in terms of thermal performance.
It just might be able to sustain running via just passive cooling even in the tropics, even though this is not a legit Cree XHP 70.2 Though you’d need to DIY an aluminum holder with handle for 4 lights or something.

If we just pump 3000 lumens or similar from each host, we’d get past 10k comfortably in total.

edit - opps, lousy mode spacing, 60% and 35. So it’s just 9200 lumens for 4 pcs at 35. Or 16k lumens at 60%, which is probably too high.
Ceiling bounce figures

2100 · 2018-10-19T05:56:46.000Z

SKV89:

From what I read, the X80GT can maintain 4000 lumens and stay just warm. The DX80 at 10minutes in measures 135F in the head and 110F in the handle so very manageable.

It’s that high even with 12 x 70.2 and 10 minutes? And i suppose ambient temperature during testing was comfortably under my 30 deg C nights here?

10 minutes @ 4000 lm
135 F = 57 deg C head
110 F = 43 deg C handle.

Yes that is exactly what i got with my BLF Q8 (above pics), 54 deg head = 43 deg at the tube, that’s the temperature difference we are talking about.

Ok, maybe we have a very different picture with regards to what manageable means.

For sure it’d hit well over 50 deg C at the tube once we go 20, 30, 40 mins. (if it can run that long)

43 deg C at 10 minute mark, at the handle for me (and still rising) is not really manageable long term, not roasting hot that you can’t touch it for over 1 second, but it’s not comfortable for me past 30 seconds. I have been testing both BLF and Sofirn Q8s for the past few nights bumping off the turbo thermal regulation, and it’s not comfortable for me or my sons for the Q8s.

The X70 would be different, with a separate plastic handle. So that could be an option to choose to, separate handle.

Of coz, those are just our personal opinions, others might have different “thermal” thresholds.

edit - oh, i know the reason already.
You could change it to a plastic handle, perhaps.

SKV89 · 2018-10-19T06:02:13.000Z

No you misread, the X80 is barely warm from what I read. The temperature quotes were from Advance Knife Bro’s review of the DX80 not X80. I believe he tested it at Turbo and just let the thermal management kick in, which drops it eventually to between 7k-8k lumens and maintains that level for the entire duration. He did say you can management without gloves if it was in cooler weather so I assume the weather he is in is not cool. But I think 110F at the handle is not hot at all for high power flashlights.

2100 · 2018-10-19T07:15:42.000Z

SKV89:

He did say you can management without gloves if it was in cooler weather so I assume the weather he is in is not cool. But I think 110F at the handle is not hot at all for high power flashlights.

I see……

Of course 43C/110F is still ok for very short periods of hand holding. Personally i think 43 deg C/110F at the handle is really too much for prolonged operation (20-30 mins) of the light?

That’s 43C/110F at 10 mins mark, it’d further rise to noticeably higher temps at 20-30 mins mark….i don’t know, 115, 120F? If there is a large temperature difference wrt ambient, then i suppose it wouldn’t rise much above that?

These comfortably close to 2kg lights with batts are not going to be light. Even with a 600g Q8 (400g + 200g batts), you’d need to apply some decent pressure on the aluminum tube in order not to let it slip. 43 deg C air temp 30 mins is endurable, but 43 deg decent pressure on a metal surface is really another thiong.

If it was a HID + sling or LED + sling like what my father in law and his workers are doing with their 65W HIDs for several tens of minutes of operation, it’s still doable I guess.

edit -

Ok, seriously just for fun’s sake (:D), i just ran my Q8 in Turbo and tried it out. 43-45 deg C temps. Short term is seriously ok….that i’d have to agree with you. But we really are talking like about 30 mins right?

I actually gave up at the 1-2 min mark, and now even while typing things out on the keyboard, my left hand is still feeling the “heat”.

And for that matter, I also just tried 46-48 deg C with my right hand with more turbo re-activations. If 48 deg C is manageable, you have my full admiration bro.
I was not able to endure 48 deg C for more than 15 seconds + decent pressure on the tube, it really felt like my hands were burning.

Trust me bro, you could actually try it in real life with any of your lights and see if 43-44 deg C on the IR thermometer, whether handholding with a good amount of pressure on the aluminum tube is comfortable or not once past that 1-2 mins mark.

2100 · 2018-10-19T07:06:48.000Z

Shucks….I might have very slightly “heat injured” my hands’ tissues man…… still feeling the heat now from the “43-48 deg C” experiments, gotta use some ice packs.

Especially my right hand, it’s still noticeably burning and not subsiding even after like 10 mins of rest.

Not joking, esp for my right hand.

SKV89 · 2018-10-19T07:15:39.000Z

I was actually under the assumption that the temperature would be dropping because the driver stepdowns from Turbo to cool the light. The direction of the temperature really depends on a lot of factors, such as ambient temp, surface area, mass, etc. So temps could be dropping, going up, or at static equilibrium. Not going to debate what temperature is manageable because everyone is different. Also some people, like myself like to leave lights tail standing to ceiling bounce while working so I wouldn’t even mind if the temps hit 60 deg C as long as I can quickly turn it off.

Btw, none of the examples I used above are fan cooled.

SKV89 · 2018-10-19T07:19:29.000Z

Put some aloe vera and ice pack on. You’ll be fine shortly

2100 · 2018-10-19T07:40:26.000Z

SKV89:

Put some aloe vera and ice pack on. You’ll be fine shortly

I’m ok with the ice application and 80-90% of the “heaty feeling” is gone now, the feeling on the right hand was as if the heat would not go away, though it wasn’t a high level heat. I was pushing up to 48 deg C on the right hand even though it was not > 20 secs.

Gezuz, i went to google…… not fun man.

It’s good to know. Don’t push it with regards to hand holding our powerful flashlights.

This is muscle tissue damage, not burns.

PubMed Central (PMC)

THERMAL DOSE REQUIREMENT FOR TISSUE EFFECT: EXPERIMENTAL AND CLINICAL FINDINGS

In this review we have summarized the basic principles that govern the relationships between thermal exposure (Temperature and time of exposure) and thermal damage, with an emphasis on normal tissue effects. We have also attempted to identify...

Predicted times to reach muscle necrosis over the temperature range from 37–50°C, based on data by Meshorer indicating that 30 min at 43°C is sufficient to cause damage to muscle
At 41°C, the predicted heating time is down to 1800 minutes, or 1.23 days and at 42°C the predicted time of heating to approach the threshold for damage in muscle has dropped to 230 min.

Phlogiston · 2018-10-19T23:10:40.000Z

People have done that to themselves with laptop computers. Apparently, some machines can hit case temperatures of up to 50°C if cooling airflow becomes too restricted. I always used to put my laptop on a wooden chopping board when it was in my lap or on a fabric surface like my bed.