Ultimate LED Bulbs - Ultra High CRI - The Honorable Quest

fneuf · 2019-11-04T15:09:42.000Z

Trådfri's performance in the red is disappointing. Did you had opportunity to test LIFX's and HUE's products in the past?

New found constetant: Lumicrest Apturi2 PAR30, a 3000K bulb whose manufacturer tests claim CRI 98, R9 95, R12 86, Rf 95. Unfortunately, 36$ per bulb.

BlueSwordM · 2019-11-04T17:26:06.000Z

Guys, I also found this:

Bulbs.com

TCP Dimmable 11W 95 CRI 2700K A19 LED Bulb, Enclosed Rated

TCP dimmable 11 watt 95 CRI A-19 LED bulb generates as much light as many 60 watt incandescent bulbs.

SKV89 · 2019-11-04T17:59:00.000Z

I tested the Ikea LEDARE 3000K 600 lumens GU10 after being warmed up for an hour and got:

CCT: 2994K
DUV: –0.0005
Ra (CRI): 93.1
R9: 58.8
R12: 84.6
Rf: 91
Rg: 99
Blue Peak: 0.43

At cold start, DUV rating is about 0.0011

It is one of the best LED GU10 lights I’ve seen but still wish it had a DUV of –0.002 to –0.004 to make perfect for me.

Strangely I don’t see the 3000K version on their website now and they only sell a 2700K version.

contactcr · 2019-11-04T18:10:19.000Z

BlueSwordM:

Guys, I also found this:
TCP Dimmable 11W 95 CRI 2700K A19 LED Bulb, Enclosed Rated | LED11A19DOD27K95 | Bulbs.com

Energy Star site shows only CRI 92/ R9 57

https://www.energystar.gov/productfinder/product/certified-light-bulbs/details/2289871

SKV89 · 2019-11-04T18:22:57.000Z

GE Lighting 31892 Clear Finish Light Reveal HD Dimmable LED A15 Ceiling Fan Bulb 4.5 (40-Watt-Replacement), 290-Lumen Medium Base:
CCT: 2835K
DUV: –0.0033
CRI (Ra): 95.0
R9: 68.0
Rf: 91
Rg: 100
Blue Peak: 0.39

Vintage LED Edison Bulbs 60 Watt Equivalent,Eye Protection Led Bulb with 95+ CRI, Non-Dimmable, Warm White 2700K,ST58 Antique LED Filament Bulbs, E26 Medium Base
CCT: 2241K
DUV: 0.0028
CRI (Ra): 97.2
R9: 83.8
Rf: 94
Rg: 98
Blue Peak: 0.15

E27 LED Corn Light Bulb, CRI Ra 95,Photography Video Studio Lighting Light,30W 3000lm-3500lm Daylight 6000K / Warm White 3000K,for Garage Workshop Street Lamp Post Lighting (Warm White)
CCT: 3245K
CRI (Ra): 96.7
DUV: –0.0021
R9: 85.8
Rf: 92
Rg: 100
Blue Peak: 0.59

Dimmable 5.5W G9 LED Bulb - 91 Ra, no Flickering, High CRI 8 Pack, 60-Watt Halogen Equivalent, 580 Lumens, Dimmable LED Bulbs, ETL Listed, Warm White 3000K, Omnidirectional Lighting
CCT: 2806K
DUV: –0.0028
CRI (Ra): 91.9
R9: 44.7
Rg: 100
Rf: 88

Emery Allen EA-G9-4.5W-001-3090-D Dimmable Miniature Bi-Pin Base JA8 Compliant LED Light Bulb, 120V-4.5Watt (50W Equivalent) 450 Lumens, 2700K
CCT: 2600k
DUV: –0.0011
CRI (Ra): 92.5
R9: 59.5
Rg: 98
Rf: 89

fneuf · 2019-11-04T22:05:52.000Z

First : thanks to all our dear testers, in less than 3 days we have 35 candidates in this Quest. That is trouly outstanding!

So guys, discussing with Bocian & clemence (by alphabetical order) and with the cheerful help of maukka, qandeel and staticx57 we think we could assess the opportunity to push the initial idea of this topic a little further... by designing altogether what could be the "Ultimate LED Bulb™".

This is not a commitment, yet, to make it happen,
This IS a commitment to think about it, and see if we can imagine something relevant (technically and financially)

But lets be optimistic right now. You know the drill, it would not the first time here some talents decide to gather their abilities thanks to BLF. And whatever, at the very least I guarantee we'll have fun discussing the matter and we'll learn a few things along the way. That never hurts.

So, the specs I'm currently "dreaming of" seeing coming to fruition:

1 - Worldwide compatibility
- E27/E26
- 90-240V
- 50-60Hz
2 - LED
- 100lm/w efficiency
- Dimmable
- At least an option to have Nichia's Optisolis onboard :) :)
  - But no ideologies, if some manufacturer can provide something better, we'd be glat to look at it
3 - Light flux colorimetry :
- ~1000lm
- CRI Ra : 97+
- CRI Re : 97+
- R9 : 97+
- R12 : 97+
- Rf : 97+
- Rg : 100+
- Duv : -0.0003somethingish?
Target price : ?

Now, many questions:

To which extent can we push the colorimetry specs?
- Like "is wanting at least 97 on most marks unfeasible dude?", or "could such ambition be a great drive/direction to do it?"
Which CCT(s) to target?
- Could we offer a realistically "full" 2700-3000-4000-5000-6500 range?
- Could we pick and tweak medium CCTs: like offer 3400K and 5500K (by mixing dies) to embrace the range without the added complexity of product multiplication?
Which price point to target?
- To make it a reality at the very end, we have to offer something different/better than the current offering (see my first page table to get a hang of the current market) and appeal to real people
- Which audience would buy it?
Can we do that on our own (meaning with our BLF talented artisans)? Do we need to seek manufacturers?
What techical bases to try/start on?
- Should we go the COB way or go mPCB way?
Should we seek "design cleverness" and design the whole thing as "modular" (at least by design)?
- with exchangeable base: put on your E26, your E27, your GU10, etc at will, all on the same head
- with modular heads: one 400lm able, one 800lm able, etc (could a driver could even support such changes?)
- or should we keep it simple? Like all we would intend to do at fist is a Proof Of Concept, KISS mantra style
Which competencies do we need?
- Which member have those/could be willing to help?
What to learn/capitalize from previous GB / projects at BLF?
Have I already written too much?

That's all folks, I want to hear your take on all that :)

djozz · 2019-11-04T19:38:57.000Z

You need a manufacturer, I’m not sure if our usual flashlight manufacturer can make bulbs running on high voltage AC.

Joshk · 2019-11-04T22:04:24.000Z

KISS for sure. Especially on the first release. You don’t want your mistakes to multiply across offerings.
I think you will need a manufacturer, if for no other reason than to obtain safety certifications.

fneuf · 2019-11-04T21:57:15.000Z

Meanwhile, updated table.

Additions from SVK89, and some discover from Muller-Licht & Aldi (MeLiTec).

SKV89:

[…]

Once again thank you SVK89 for all those tests! Could you please add R12 measurements for your bulbs, those missing values prevent them to be correctly ordered by the "Qfactor" (greyed cases in the table).

SKV89 · 2019-11-04T22:21:21.000Z

These were tested a while ago. Some of these lights I don’t have anymore but I will try to measure them. In the future, I will include the R12 value.

Btw, you are missing the DUV in your spreadsheet for the GE 31892. For many people, the DUV is as important as the CRI.

Bocian · 2019-11-05T07:06:06.000Z

Guys, the idea of create the “Ultimate LED Bulb” with the highest currently possible light quality and good efficiency is great but also very complex. Doing this fully legally will be completely unprofitable. Fulfilling all the international requirements and legal restrictions will be impossible in reasonable budget. The cost of testing in certified laboratories (notified body) is enormous. For example to meet CE requirements and “sleep like a baby” (just for Europe) confirmed by a certified unit is about 3-5 thousands euros just for one product. Single small company can declare CE by itself, but need to fulfill all the require harmonized norms (find all of them, buy, study and confirm their fulfillment) for specified product. In this case need to pay only for EMI/RFI testing and basic spectrophotometric measurements. I don’t even want to think about the details of the US market requirements

rngwn · 2019-11-05T08:00:30.000Z

From what I see, Hyperikons’ isn’t exactly “ultra high CRI”, but rather on the 9050 or “high CRI” weight class (which is why it is relatively much cheaper than the rest).

It’s safe to expect (in most cases) from what it says on the tin:

Ra 80+ => R9 0-20
Ra 90+ => R9 50-80
Ra 95+ => R9 70+

maukka · 2019-11-05T10:41:29.000Z

maukka:

Anyone tested this one (2200-4000K smart bulb):
Products - IKEA Switzerland

For some reason Ikea doesn’t state CRI for that particular model.

Got a response from customer service. They say it’s CRI90. I’ll have to pick one up to test.

fneuf · 2019-11-05T14:29:34.000Z

Yeah, certifications processes does not welcome small new players. If we find a nice product defintion ourselves, and receive interest from a manufacturer it would be less of a problem still.

And if we keep this as "hobbyists", are we completely hand tied by that?

Starting from which point (I guess wich "sale" number) do we need to do it fully legally (answers could varyies country to country I guess)?

What is sought by those certifications? Be sure to have safe product connected to mains?

Would proceeding and offering to some members an officially uncertified product put builders/buyers in legal risk or as long as we keep low profile and have low numbers are we safe?

Meanwhile, I can announce that I'm pleased to have received some interests by a manufacturer to test their current products. And I'm currently organising some bulbs shipments to Maukka for tests. Let's cross fingers.

Joshk · 2019-11-05T15:33:13.000Z

Bocian:

Guys, the idea of create the “Ultimate LED Bulb” with the highest currently possible light quality and good efficiency is great but also very complex. Doing this fully legally will be completely unprofitable. Fulfilling all the international requirements and legal restrictions will be impossible in reasonable budget. The cost of testing in certified laboratories (notified body) is enormous. For example to meet CE requirements and “sleep like a baby” (just for Europe) confirmed by a certified unit is about 3-5 thousands euros just for one product. Single small company can declare CE by itself, but need to fulfill all the require harmonized norms (find all of them, buy, study and confirm their fulfillment) for specified product. In this case need to pay only for EMI/RFI testing and basic spectrophotometric measurements. I don’t even want to think about the details of the US market requirements :person_facepalming:

It’s not quite so hopeless, there are options.
A) Convince a manufacturer to work with us and foot the bill. (Hardest)
B) Create a DIY Project for an existing bulb. (there are no laws against modding)
C) Create a DIY Project by selling the bulb in two separate pieces. (So it can be called DIY)

fneuf · 2019-11-05T20:48:26.000Z

I was browsing info on SSC SunLike LED offering, when I stumbled upon the "sunlikelamp" website, that seem russian based, and their "configurable" bulbs:

E27/E14/GU10/GU5.3
Multiple reflectors/lens choices from 30° to 120°
6 to 50W
3200K / 4000K / 5000K / 5600K
They claim ultra high CRI for each CCT, measurement said to be performed by "lamptest.ru".
- For instance @4000K it's Ra 99 / R9 97 / R12 98 / Rf 97...
- So from the company name and those results I safely assume they are currently using thos SSC/Toshiba SunLike dies.

Just have a look:

Judging only by the look of it, I think it fits our "DIY uncertified product" category we were discussing earlier. And this "boutique" products seems really interesting.

Mail sent.

djozz · 2019-11-05T19:05:15.000Z

We can stop the development then

fneuf · 2019-11-05T21:03:55.000Z

No need to be sad djozz, you know what they says: it is not the journey that is important, but the destination... Wait, do I have it reverse?

Anyway, I had a great chat with Adam, the man behind the "SunLikeLamp" russian boutique and he would be okay to send us a bulb for review. Calling out @maukka on that one: are you in to test?

Joshk · 2019-11-05T22:19:42.000Z

Can you share some specs and price? I can’t read or translate their russian images on the website. But it seems $22 gets you a ultra high CRI bulb?

fneuf · 2019-11-05T22:41:40.000Z

There's an english version of the website if you hit the little UK flag on the top rightish.

Quick sum up:

a range from 6 to 50W, from 19$ to 100$
choices between SSC's SAWS0661A (more efficient and a bit more lumen) and SOL1306SXX (a bit better CRI) dies
you can also refer my previous posts for a bit more detailled specs

And yes, with 19$ you get what I expect to be an ultra high CRI 6W bulb, and what I really look forward to see tested here. For 21$ a 10W, 29$ a 12W, and so on up to 50W.