what bin are these nichias?

trailhunter · 2019-06-30T15:22:14.000Z

contactcr:

It seems like you are making up for a year of modding in about a month’s time. Take it slow and try new stuff and do research. You will be burnt out trying to catch up.

Thanks contactcr, I’m immersed in tinkering - it’s been a journey in the past 4 weeks

TrueRMS · 2019-06-30T15:24:27.000Z

I’m super interested in your testing, I love lower [~3000k] color tint but haven’t tried since I got really let down by some high CRI XM-L2’s that ended up being yellow. You should be able to have warm but still white light!
If they’re 3000k but still white tint I’d be in for some!

trailhunter · 2019-06-30T15:34:25.000Z

TrueRMS:

I’m super interested in your testing, I love lower [~3000k] color tint but haven’t tried since I got really let down by some high CRI XM-L2’s that ended up being yellow. You should be able to have warm but still white light!
If they’re 3000k but still white tint I’d be in for some!

Yes exactly, if they are still on the whiter side and not yellow/orange, I’d fall in love with a new bin all over again

Tally-ho · 2019-06-30T17:08:29.000Z

3000K is warm white, how could it be white ? Do you mean a tint on BBL (planckian locus) without an over-exaggerated tint because of a positive/negative Duv ?

The 219C 3000K (sm303) isn’t “white” :

(Source)

jon_slider · 2019-06-30T17:52:11.000Z

Tally-ho:

The 219C 3000K (sm303) isn’t “white”

you have highlighted the confusion caused by white balance

IF white balance is set to 3000k, then 3000k IS white

there is white all along the BBL line, at all color temperatures.

but usually people compare color temperatures, using daylight white balance (5600k), and that makes 3000k look much warmer.

and as you pointed out, Tint is separate from Color Temperature. IF the tint is not above the BBL, it wont be green/yellow, but the 219c lands (slightly) above the BBL (and benefits from Lee minus green filters):

image by maukka:

maybe someone can find a tint plot like the one above, for the 3000k 219b

Geuzzz · 2019-06-30T17:58:20.000Z

The thing is sst-20 3000k already has great tint with negative duv.

clemence · 2019-07-02T16:02:11.000Z

TrueRMS:

I’m super interested in your testing, I love lower [~3000k] color tint but haven’t tried since I got really let down by some high CRI XM-L2’s that ended up being yellow. You should be able to have warm but still white light!
If they’re 3000k but still white tint I’d be in for some!

Anything near the black body locus defined as “white” although beyond X=0,33; Y=0,33, it starts not to looks white(< 5000K or > 6500K). Cool white, neutral white, and warm white depends on where the point lies in relation to the defined black body locus and the X axis. Defined as CCT (Correlated Color Temperature)
Tint is the deviation in Y axis while keeping the point on the same X axis point.

Some people believe that our adapted eyes will perceive very warm or very cool white as neutral white. I totally disagree. I did the test myself with a bunch of my modified Jet-Us with 10 different CCTs (2000K all the way to 6500K). In my pitch dark bedroom. I place all those lights behind my head and randomly picked anything I grab first. I paused for 15 minutes or more before I grabbed the next light. To me warm white still looks orangish and cool white still looks bluish, no matter how.
So our (my) eyes don’t have ultra wide CCT compensation as found in camera white balance.

[Clemence]

clemence · 2019-07-02T20:58:03.000Z

trailhunter:

Do you think if I buy them, i can sell them off? It’s a lot of emitters and i prefer these go to the hands of our flashoholics

The highly praised 219B is the sw45k D220 R9080.
D220 is the brightest flux bin for 4500K R9080 range. Yet, 219B R9080 is very inefficient and outdated by many newer LEDs. So, D200 for 3000K R9050 is even less efficient (R9050 supposed to be more efficient than R9080).
I see no point in getting them since Luminus SST-20 3000K R9080 is superior in every way. Only E21A can compete with SST-20 in light quality department, and even that at much lower max current limit. I don’t think super cheap price would interest large audience. BLF tintsnobs are indeed really picky!

I hope you haven’t buy it. Invest your money in something else.

[Clemence]

Lightbringer · 2019-07-02T16:22:12.000Z

WW won’t ever be “true white” no matter what. Simple reason is that there’s very little blue content in a candle-flame, and the same for a 2000K LED. It’s easier to include red (high R9, etc.) in a CW source, as it’s a longer wavelength (lower energy) than where the spectrum’s peak lies.

Also, with a true incandescent-source 2700K bulb, after a while you and/or your eyes can compensate within reason, and be able to “filter” your perception of colors. But snap a picture of the room, and it’ll look hideously yellow.

I can look up at bright incan room-lights and see the “yellowness”, even though they’re quite bright. Yet items will look rather “normal” (relative term) under that light.

It’s the same when wearing tinted sunglasses, that you can compensate, again, within reason, and when you take off the glasses and see “true” again, everything will look odd until your eyes compensate back again.

clemence · 2019-07-02T16:26:17.000Z

Lightbringer:

WW won’t ever be “true white” no matter what. Simple reason is that there’s very little blue content in a candle-flame, and the same for a 2000K LED. It’s easier to include red (high R9, etc.) in a CW source, as it’s a longer wavelength (lower energy) than where the spectrum’s peak lies.

Also, with a true incandescent-source 2700K bulb, after a while you and/or your eyes can compensate within reason, and be able to “filter” your perception of colors. But snap a picture of the room, and it’ll look hideously yellow.

I can look up at bright incan room-lights and see the “yellowness”, even though they’re quite bright. Yet items will look rather “normal” (relative term) under that light.

It’s the same when wearing tinted sunglasses, that you can compensate, again, within reason, and when you take off the glasses and see “true” again, everything will look odd until your eyes compensate back again.

+1

jon_slider · 2019-07-02T16:45:14.000Z

clemence:

Some people believe that our adapted eyes will perceive very warm or very cool white as neutral white. I totally disagree. I did the test myself with a bunch of my modified Jet-Us with 10 different CCTs (2000K all the way to 6500K). In my pitch dark bedroom. I place all those lights behind my head and randomly picked anything I grab first. I paused for 15 minutes or more before I grabbed the next light. To me warm white still looks orangish and cool white still looks bluish, no matter how.
So our (my) eyes don’t have ultra wide CCT compensation as found in camera white balance.

I test in a different way.
First I have to have been in a color temperature environment for a minimum of 30 minutes for my brain to bring its white balance in sync with the ambient CCT.

When I wake up in the dark (more than 30 minutes asleep causes my brain to lower its white balance below 4000k), I see 4000k and above as increasingly blueish

When I wake up in the dark, I see 3000-3500k as neutral white, and 2000k as only slightly warm white.

When I have been sitting under 3000k incandescent for a couple of hours, the incandescent does not look warm (yellowish/orange), instead if I shine 4000k or higher on the wall next to the 3000k, the 4000k+ look increasingly blueish

During daylight hours, after my brain has spent a couple hours sitting by a window, if I use an LED with CCT 4000k or lower, the LEDs looks warmer (yellowish orange), to increasing degrees.

When adapted to daylight my 3000k E21a and N219c look warm (yellow/orangeish)
When adapted to daylight my sw45k looks white with strong pink tint
When adapted to daylight my 6500k optisolis looks white with slight green tint

The pattern is that my brain thinks a spread of more than 1000k between ambient adapted brain, and turning on an LED of a different CCT than ambient, produces awareness that the LED is either cooler, or warmer, than ambient adapted brain white balance

everything depends on what the ambient CCT is, and that the brain has had at least 30 minutes to adapt its white balance to ambient. Then a light source of a different CCT will be perceived as warmer or cooler.

I have tested this extensively by putting a light on my nightstand, and then using the same light during the day. At night 4000k+ looks white with a blue cast, during the day the 4000k or less, looks warm (yellowish orange cast)

.

Lightbringer:

Also, with a true incandescent-source 2700K bulb, after a while you and/or your eyes can compensate within reason, and be able to “filter” your perception of colors. But snap a picture of the room, and it’ll look hideously yellow.

I agree. A photo with daylight white balance will definitely make 2700k look nice and warm

And I agree, my brain compensates for 2700k incandescent ambient, after more than a 30 minute while, and I “see” white printer paper looks white.

How I perceive a new light source, such as turning on a flashlight, is all relative to white balance my brain has adapted to, for the ambient light, before the new light source appears.

clemence · 2019-07-02T16:44:50.000Z

jon_slider:

clemence:

Some people believe that our adapted eyes will perceive very warm or very cool white as neutral white. I totally disagree. I did the test myself with a bunch of my modified Jet-Us with 10 different CCTs (2000K all the way to 6500K). In my pitch dark bedroom. I place all those lights behind my head and randomly picked anything I grab first. I paused for 15 minutes or more before I grabbed the next light. To me warm white still looks orangish and cool white still looks bluish, no matter how.
So our (my) eyes don’t have ultra wide CCT compensation as found in camera white balance.

I test in a different way.
First I have to have been in a color temperature environment for a minimum of 30 minutes for my brain to bring its white balance in sync with the ambient CCT.

When I wake up in the dark (more than 30 minutes asleep causes my brain to lower its white balance below 4000k), I see 4000k and above as increasingly blueish

When I wake up in the dark, I see 3000-3500k as neutral white, and 2000k as only slightly warm white.

When I have been sitting under 3000k incandescent for a couple of hours, the incandescent does not look warm (yellowish/orange), instead if I shine 4000k or higher on the wall next to the 3000k, the 4000k+ look increasingly blueish

During daylight hours, after my brain has spent a couple hours sitting by a window, if I use an LED with CCT 4000k or lower, the LEDs looks warmer (yellowish orange), to increasing degrees.

When adapted to daylight my 3000k E21a and N219c look warm (yellow/orangeish)
When adapted to daylight my sw45k looks white with strong pink tint
When adapted to daylight my 6500k optisolis looks white with slight green tint

The pattern is that my brain thinks a spread of more than 1000k between ambient adapted brain, and turning on an LED of a different CCT than ambient, produces awareness that the LED is either cooler, or warmer, than ambient adapted brain white balance

everything depends on what the ambient CCT is, and that the brain has had at least 30 minutes to adapt its white balance to ambient. Then a light source of a different CCT will be perceived as warmer or cooler.

I have tested this extensively by putting a light on my nightstand, and then using the same light during the day. At night 4000k+ looks white with a blue cast, during the day the 4000k or less, looks warm (yellowish orange cast)

That’s makes you a neat nerd! :laughing:
To me it’s not as complicated. My brain seems to store all the CCT information and retrieve it back almost instantly.

[Clemence]

jon_slider · 2019-07-02T16:55:35.000Z

clemence:

My brain seems to store all the CCT information and retrieve it back almost instantly.

thanks for the exploration of our CCT perceptions

a simple experiment
turn on an incandescent, briefly, during the day, and look at a white piece of paper illuminated by the incandescent light.
I notice the white paper looks “warm” white.

compare to looking at that same piece of paper after sitting under that same incandescent light at night, for a couple of hours.
I notice the white paper looks “neutral” white

I do not think our brains are processing CCT info very differently.
I do think that our brains perception of a new lightsource is determined by the CCT the brain is adapted to.

There may be differences in what CCT our brain is adapted to. For example, in Bali, your brain may be adapted to a higher CCT of daylight, than my brain is while sitting in California daylight. And my CCT perception is definitely different on a foggy morning, than on a clear sunny mid day with bright blue skies and no clouds.

Geuzzz · 2019-07-02T16:58:27.000Z

My brain just wants to see warm vivid colours. Cool is too cool. Neutral is boring.

clemence · 2019-07-02T17:00:12.000Z

I wrote:

clemence wrote: My brain seems to store all the CCT information and retrieve it back almost instantly.

Not as accurate as my camera for sure. I often misjudged 2200K/2700K, 5000K/5700K

[Clemence]

trailhunter · 2019-07-02T20:49:42.000Z

Does anyone have an example 219b sw30 light? Doing searches, seems to be hardly if ever, spoken about

clemence · 2019-07-02T21:11:29.000Z

Even E21A D200 sm305 R9080 is still more efficient. I believe Luminus SST20 is on par with E21A but with higher over current capability

[Clemence]

contactcr · 2019-07-02T21:17:13.000Z

On paper Luxeon MZ sounded great too until I tried to actually mod anything with it

Point being at least the 219b will be much easier to actually use with a dome, and if he is stuck with 1,000 of them that will matter. lol

clemence · 2019-07-02T21:28:25.000Z

contactcr:

On paper Luxeon MZ sounded great too until I tried to actually mod anything with it

Point being at least the 219b will be much easier to actually use with a dome, and if he is stuck with 1,000 of them that will matter. lol

I used E21A as technology advancement comparator but suggested SST-20 instead. E17 or E21 are not for everyone.
Those Nichia Esttool is very accurate to simulate real world testing.

[Clemence]

jon_slider · 2019-07-02T22:25:32.000Z

so as not to continue the hijack, I started a new thread
click pic for more pics and comments about the effect of the brain’s ambient white balance on color and tint perception when whitewall hunting