Whats the deal with MAO coatings?

elendur · 2023-03-09T15:47:54.337Z

My new MAO hanklight had worn off more in two days than a others in two months. All the sharper edges are showing shinier alu color. I was expecting faster wear, but not that fast.

I don’t have have shelf queens and I think it’ll look great when super worn off too, since it matches the stainless button ring and large square bezel. It has a lot of knurling and large fins (dt8k) so most of it should remain whitish-grey.

Its now about a week old:

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flashburn · 2023-03-16T14:53:10.912Z

Any treatment of the prous MAO would surely ruin thermal dissipation completely. So, if the light is not to be greased and used as a roller bearing, MAO might not actually be a usable surface finish.
Next try:
Corundum finish. Flash tempering the surface to 1600°C in pure oxigen could grow shiny lilac abrasive crystals of excellent durability. With this, one could use the light as a knife sharpener. Hmmm…

Correllux · 2023-03-16T17:45:30.322Z

MAO essentially is corundum. That said, “corundum” gets applied to an awful lot of things, all based on aluminum oxide. A lot of the “ruby” sharpening and grinding stones are…“corundum”…as are the more friable white ones…etc etc etc. I think depending on the process and source you can get just about any color in the rainbow (but not for these metal finishes…different animal there).

Much as I understand right now and with what I’ve held in hand of a “known good” application, MAO certainly can be much more durable and much thicker than the best anodizing.

I got an S2+ MAO in the other day. Looks like it’s maybe a better quality than what was on the Wurkkos but yeah, not exactly hard or durable, definitely not anything like the US applied that I got to look at. It’d be nice if they could pursue a better finish from whichever outfits in China are doing this for the various brands’ lights but for now it seems like just a decorative color.

flashburn · 2023-03-16T20:19:38.701Z

MAO makes amorphous aluminium oxide.
Corundum is a crystal.
Chemical sum identical, but totally different material.

NeutralFan · 2023-03-17T01:14:29.053Z

That sucks elendur! Still a cool flashlight though.

I suspect my MAO S2+ would look similar if not pampered. The tail lockout stopped working right away since the coating on the threads wore off despite plenty of lube.

Bort · 2023-03-25T11:20:14.739Z

Correllux:

Jeffgoldblum:

Aerospace and $30 flashlights?

We get “aerospace quality aluminum” on every single flashlight…it’s a great marketing bullet point!! lol. I can’t beleive people still advertise the “aerospace” thing but it just won’t go away. I mean sixty years ago it was a selling point but now 6061 and 7075 are all over the place in all kinds of bits and bobs. 6061-T6, by virtue of volume produced alone, is actually super inexpensive nowadays. That said, I think a lot of our lights that are sold as 6061 are not actually that alloy, easy as it is to bend head/tail openings and some tube ends. Probably cheaper 5052 or 30xx. Not many advertise 7075 but those may be legit…not the greatest choice for a host material though. But I like knowing my flashlights could survive - even thrive, maybe - on an interstellar planetary mission.

Yeah, years ago in a thread we called it Chinese aluminum.
I would be interested to know what it really is.

And the anodizing, i have always wondered if its actually safe. For all we know it could be high in lead. Or even Mercury.
Surprisingly many Corelle dishes made before 2005 have high levels of lead
I have always washed my hands after using a flashlight.

darosk · 2023-03-25T11:42:34.495Z

Most likely the manufacturers haven’t figured out the right ‘recipe’ or process yet. In theory it’s supposed to be more durable, is more ‘green’ to produce. You have to remember that for a lot of these manufacturers it’s their first time doing MAO. I remember the Wurkkos TS10 MAO where they basically said, “LOL we f*cked that finish up, here, have some cheap lights” and I got a MAO TS10 for $12 shipped. Regret that I didn’t buy more at that price, I didn’t at the time because I was worried it would be real scratchy. It is - but at $12 well worth it still.

zoulas · 2023-03-25T21:45:33.086Z

So far from user reports, MAO is a gimmick.

Bort · 2023-03-26T01:28:09.786Z

zoulas:

So far from user reports, MAO is a gimmick.

Indeed until this thread i was panning on buying a Convoy M21B in MAO, now i won’t

Correllux · 2023-03-26T02:04:35.917Z

No, and it’s counterproductive to use such a broad generalized comment. What we’re seeing is either something different than the real thing or it’s just poor process that is turning out an inferior finish compared to the real thing. MAO (by any name) is actually really good and a far cry better than HAIII anodizing. I hope we may see it someday on flashlights even if it adds to the cost a little.

Correllux · 2023-03-26T02:09:58.502Z

No, you will never ever see lead or mercury on a light as a result of anodizing. I suppose it would be possible if anyone painted lights, but who does that. The chemistry of anodizing wouldn’t permit those things to be involved and end up with a functional finish.

I’ve heard more stories about brass and copper from China as it’s often an “unclean” mix of scrap…whether that matters just depends on the end use I guess. But that said, if you were to worry about lead in a flashlight host it would be from brass…potentially. There’s been so much litigation and legislation regarding lead (and brass as well…plumbing) all around the world that most brass these days is a very very low content of lead and most of it never had a lot to begin with anyway (it’s of benefit in machining for a little lubricity and better surface finish…or used to be…today’s tooling and cnc capabilities mitigate that a lot). All of those little brass trinkets and edc bits and decorative things…? Might be wise not to rub on those a whole lot. lol

Correllux · 2023-03-26T02:12:30.757Z

I don’t know if green is the right word…potentially less chemical pollution (from vapors and/or liquid spills and disposal). MAO takes a whole lot more electricity to produce so in green terms someone might need to math all that out to see how much benefit overall there is vs. standard anodizing methods.

Correllux · 2023-03-26T02:14:04.735Z

flashburn:

MAO makes amorphous aluminium oxide.
Corundum is a crystal.
Chemical sum identical, but totally different material.

Sorry, just saw this. You may want to read further about MAO. Because of the much higher voltages that amorphous beginning does in fact end up as crystalization in the final finished coating. Regular anodizing is also considered amorphous, btw.

Valynor · 2023-03-26T02:32:46.337Z

elendur:

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b93a1ab2-1335-4126-9566-2e6f4d53dd5e1920×1962 254 KB

I have to say this pic single-handedly convinced me not to order my next Hanklight in MAO - even though I like the colour.
If it wears off THAT quickly, it’s not really a good enough coating. Maybe Hank finds a better company to do this treatment later on but for now this is quite meh.

NeutralFan · 2023-03-26T02:37:34.178Z

The Cyanski MAO looks very good (and different than Convoy/Emisar) and perhaps is more durable: REVIEW Cyanski P25 V2.0 MAO

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darosk · 2023-03-26T05:57:39.009Z

Yes, hence my putting ‘green’ in quotation marks. Not just the actual process itself but I doubt there’s much done in Chinese factories that are truly green.

Jeffgoldblum · 2023-03-26T06:51:52.972Z

BortyMcBortface:

Yeah, years ago in a thread we called it Chinese aluminum.
I would be interested to know what it really is.

And the anodizing, i have always wondered if its actually safe. For all we know it could be high in lead. Or even Mercury.
Surprisingly many Corelle dishes made before 2005 have high levels of lead
I have always washed my hands after using a flashlight.

I mean it could be any of a billion different alloys. Who knows.

I wash my hands all the time anyways. (Im actually for real, by a doctor, diagnosed OCD solely because he said I washed my hands far too much. This was before covid. Bet I don’t look too OCD now eh? Dumb doctors) but anyways…

I got curious about this and started looking at other things I own that are anodized aluminum. I have this SharpStone® herb grinder I got 12 years ago. Somewhat of a higher end grinder. I think I ordered it right from SharpStone and paid like $33 for it. It’s not HA III anodized it’s just “anodized” and it’s not aerospace aluminum it is “made from aluminum rod”(sic). It’s been through everything, been everywhere, seen stuff that not grinder should have to see. It’s been used everyday, many times a day, by many different people, for 12 years. It’s never once been fully cleaned and definitely never been lubricated. The opposite really.

But it’s holding up well. The anodizing is definitely worn in alot of places and scratched off in places where it was dropped onto concrete, but I’ve seen year old flashlights that look 10x worse than this. I’d say this is better anodizing and stronger aluminum than the flashlights I have. But we’ll see how they look in 12 years. And I’ve never had to lubricate the threads, it’s full of sticky resin constantly, and it still spins and spins.

I think theres trace amounts of lead in almost everything.
Corelle is high end stuff. So if they have lead probably everyone else does. Anything porcelain probably does when you scrape off the coating. Same with stainless steels. And probably most of our utensils too under the chromium. And most of our drinking glasses. Not just the crystal ones where lead is added intentionally but any made of recycled glass or any with painted glass ones for sure, like the ones with cartoon characters for kids.

I think lead is more of an issue for kids anyways. Less of an issue for adults. Still probably not great. But I shoot lead bullets and use leaded solder so w/e.

Everything is poison. Don’t get me started on toothpaste and mouthwash, or any cleaning product. You know how many carcinogens and toxins are in soap? There’s a reason we wash it off our hands. It’s not just to “wash the germs away” lol.

I went around my house with a high end real time air quality monitor and VOC detector once and the the highest levels weren’t where I thought they’d be, in the garage with all the weedkiller and insecticide and paint thinners and engine oils and automotive greases and where the car is parked at night in the winter, or under the bathroom sink with the toilet bowl cleaner and draino. The highest levels were in every drawer/cabinet/closet we had clothes or sheets in. The second highest levels were on our beds, on the sheets. And the 3rd highest levels were the dogs! The freakin dogs!

Nowhere is safe.

NeutralFan · 2023-03-26T14:48:08.551Z

Jeffgoldblum:

And the 3rd highest levels were the dogs! The freakin dogs!

Is that why the dog in your avatar has that look on their face?

flashburn · 2023-03-26T18:17:47.604Z

Did one ever try to do a NEMP finish?

Jeffgoldblum · 2023-03-26T18:36:41.168Z

NeutralFan:

Is that why the dog in your avatar has that look on their face?

Lol that’s exactly why

I forgot part of that story btw. I borrowed this thing from a buddy cuz this one was like $2 grand. So i throw it in my car to bring it back, left it running in the passenger seat to see what levels in the car were like.

Started the engine, realized I forgot idk some amazon return or something, ran back inside, the car was idling for idk like 45 seconds tops, got back in, and the levels on the meter for everything were thru the roof. Like sooooo many many times higher than any acceptable limit. Like some of the toxic gases were like 1000x times past the OSHA PEL. Even after driving around with the windows down for 20 minutes nothing ever got lower than like 10x the limit for anything. Stopped eating lunch in my car for awhile after that lol.