[PART 1] Official BLF GT Group Buy thread. Group buy officially closed! Lights shipping.

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Jerommel
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Hey guys,

I was being totally creative today, so here’s the idea for a recoil setup, for those who are unfamiliar with the concept.

The concept is simplicity itself, and all of the light from the LED is reflected forward in parallel rays.
Hope it’s helpful and / or inspiring.

Q

Jerommel
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The Miller wrote:
Will update the OP later

OK to be clear
This is a large reflector long fat (4S2P as long as say 2 srk tubes) tubed light.

Wavien collars, lensen, mirrors are all cool but require the start up of a new project

This is for me also a light honoring and aiding Old Lumens.
I want a figure between $5 and $10 (final fair selling price rounded up to next x5 or x0) per sold light donated to Old Lumens and Valerie for as long as this light is being sold whatever the manufacturer will ask for it after the groupbuy.

Old Lumens described a lught he really would have seen produced, i can’t find tgst post anymore but except for
1 wanted US made (RMM) driver, we will go for a BLF designed and coded yet Chinese made one (no doubt a con for Justin)
2 larger head (a plus)
The light we now work on ticks the boxes.

We have discussed shape/form format and I did not push hard for the shape that would allow an OL honorary light since I felt that would not be fair as it would be to heavy and divert from the discussion what we should pursue.
Now that the shape is chosen I stand strong and say this is a Old Lumens honorary light and this is what it is going to be.
Please start new projects for box/square, lensed, mirrored etc lights, this is not going to be that Wink


I hadn’t yet read this, thanks for the clarification.

Q

The Miller
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pilotdog68 wrote:
good info 4Wheelr. I’m glad IM is willing to work with us

Yeah! great, maybe they can shi directly from China to China.
Good to communicate in English with the designers! thanks man!
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Jerommel wrote:
Hey guys,

I was being totally creative today, so here’s the idea for a recoil setup, for those who are unfamiliar with the concept.

The concept is simplicity itself, and all of the light from the LED is reflected forward in parallel rays.
Hope it’s helpful and / or inspiring.


Oh gosh this looks awesome!
Maybe PM Djozz, he talkedabout recoil thrower as well. Small super focussed recoil with enoruous throw would be an extremely cool project!
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A recoil thrower would be interesting indeed, I worry about the cooling ability though. If the LED was mounted in a cross and had a thicker bade plate it is possible but still hard to see all the head being dissipated through tiny supports without blocking the light.

4wheeler that is good news and opens the possibility of using those reflectors if they can be shipped inside china.

If they can run a test on the XP-L hi and let us know what kind of numbers the off-the-shelf units would do we may not even need to custom make one. It would be interesting to hear what kind of improvements they think would be possible with a custom reflector over a pre-made one.

Pre-made would obviously be a lot cheaper, easier and faster.

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Put me down for two… Looks interesting.

djozz
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About the recoil thrower idea and the drawing above: the light intensity of a led decreases at greater angle, therefore, the ‘throw/added surface area of the reflector’ decreases too, meaning that a reflector catching the light up to the full 180 degrees will be increasingly big without adding equivalently to the throw of the set-up. Without having much reference about it, my estimate is that a reflector that catches a cone up to 90 degrees is still sensible.

When time allows, for the fun of it, I will try to make a recoil contraption one of these days to see how well it works, but the thrower of this thread will almost certainly not be a recoil type.

link to djozz tests 

“I used to think that top environmental problems were biodiversity loss, ecosystem collapse and climate change. I thought that thirty years of good science could address these problems. I was wrong. The top environmental problems are selfishness, greed and apathy, and to deal with these we need a cultural and spiritual transformation. And we scientists don’t know how to do that.”   (Gus Speth)

EasyB
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djozz wrote:
About the recoil thrower idea and the drawing above: the light intensity of a led decreases at greater angle, therefore, the ‘throw/added surface area of the reflector’ decreases too, meaning that a reflector catching the light up to the full 180 degrees will be increasingly big without adding equivalently to the throw of the set-up. Without having much reference about it, my estimate is that a reflector that catches a cone up to 90 degrees is still sensible.

When time allows, for the fun of it, I will try to make a recoil contraption one of these days to see how well it works, but the thrower of this thread will almost certainly not be a recoil type.

The light intensity decreases at greater angle only because the apparent area of the LED decreases. The luminance would still be the same. So if the reflector catches that high angle light, it should be able to contribute to the throw as expected.

The increase in light collection will not be huge, though; standard reflectors with depth about equal to the diameter collect more than 70% of the light from the LED.

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Interested.

Jerommel
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About the angle and the recoil concept, i agree the full 180° is not really necessary, but this would probably depend on the LED (dome or no dome, flat or bulbous phosphor) too.
I would probably go for something like 135°, making the reflector some 33% smaller in diameter.
The drawing is ‘for reference only’ Wink
But a normal reflector cup also uses the wide angled light of the emitter, so i’m not really sure…

Q

Jerommel
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EasyB wrote:

The increase in light collection will not be huge, though; standard reflectors with depth about equal to the diameter collect more than 70% of the light from the LED.
Hmmm…
The standard reflector doesn’t reflect the best / brightest bit of the emitted light though…
This is what the ‘problem’ of a normal reflector thrower is, a lot of light is spilled, it’s called “spill”..
A zoomy only uses what would normally be the spill, so with a recoil set up you get both. Smile

I can’t find proper and affordable parabolic mirrors anywhere though, i have some spherical concave ones, but that just doesn’t work (they’re made for incandescent projector lamps).

Q

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Texas_Ace wrote:
A recoil thrower would be interesting indeed, I worry about the cooling ability though. If the LED was mounted in a cross and had a thicker bade plate it is possible but still hard to see all the head being dissipated through tiny supports without blocking the light.
In the drawing it is a copper ‘fin’, at least as thick as the thermal slug of the LED’s width.
The weak spot of the heat dissipation is still the LED itself, not the fin.
I think it will be no problem to run any 3535 on 10+ Watts.

3 fins forming a ‘Mercedes star’ would look cool too. :)

Quote:

4wheeler that is good news and opens the possibility of using those reflectors if they can be shipped inside china.


Ah yes, back on topic, maybe i’ll start a topic on the recoil idea, for this light that deeeep reflector 4wheeler proposes looks very interesting. Thumbs Up

Q

EasyB
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Jerommel wrote:
EasyB wrote:

The increase in light collection will not be huge, though; standard reflectors with depth about equal to the diameter collect more than 70% of the light from the LED.
Hmmm…
The standard reflector doesn’t reflect the best / brightest bit of the emitted light though…
This is what the ‘problem’ of a normal reflector thrower is, a lot of light is spilled, it’s called “spill”..
A zoomy only uses what would normally be the spill, so with a recoil set up you get both. Smile

I can’t find proper and affordable parabolic mirrors anywhere though, i have some spherical concave ones, but that just doesn’t work (they’re made for incandescent projector lamps).

If you haven’t already, have a look at this thread. The throw is just a function of the apparent area of the reflector or lens and the luminance of the LED.

The standard reflector misses the light directly above the LED, but even though this light is the highest intensity, it comprises only about 25% of the total light emitted from the LED. This might seem unintuitive, but it is just a consequence of geometry; the light at more of an angle is less intense, but there is more of it. So an aspheric light might collect the highest intensity light from the LED, but it is only about 25% of the total light.

So I agree that a proper recoil setup could be better in terms of light collection, but it won’t be as much of an improvement as you might expect.

Jerommel
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EasyB wrote:
Jerommel wrote:
EasyB wrote:

The increase in light collection will not be huge, though; standard reflectors with depth about equal to the diameter collect more than 70% of the light from the LED.
Hmmm…
The standard reflector doesn’t reflect the best / brightest bit of the emitted light though…
This is what the ‘problem’ of a normal reflector thrower is, a lot of light is spilled, it’s called “spill”..
A zoomy only uses what would normally be the spill, so with a recoil set up you get both. Smile

I can’t find proper and affordable parabolic mirrors anywhere though, i have some spherical concave ones, but that just doesn’t work (they’re made for incandescent projector lamps).

If you haven’t already, have a look at this thread. The throw is just a function of the apparent area of the reflector or lens and the luminance of the LED.

I read that some years ago i think, but i’m not sure what the terms used all mean exactly, so it’s kind of wasted on me…
Quote:

The standard reflector misses the light directly above the LED, but even though this light is the highest intensity, it comprises only about 25% of the total light emitted from the LED. This might seem unintuitive, but it is just a consequence of geometry; the light at more of an angle is less intense, but there is more of it. So an aspheric light might collect the highest intensity light from the LED, but it is only about 25% of the total light.

this (i assume) is 70% of the 180°?
Or is it 70% of the actual light emitted?
This depends also on the relative depth of the reflector.
Quote:

So I agree that a proper recoil setup could be better in terms of light collection, but it won’t be as much of an improvement as you might expect.

It will have the tighter beam though and the intensity of a reflector and a zoomy combined.
But enough about it here, i will start a topic about a recoil thrower when i come up with a catchy title. Smile
(and i made a new drawing, 145° in stead of 180°)

Q

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IM supplied an estimated throw with XPL HI.  Response is:

"optical simulation of the xplhi LED with the 100-1332 LED. With 1klm, the intensity collimation is around 200 - 235 cd/lm, and 2.5 deg beam."

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Not that I want this project to end up as an aspherical thrower, but does recoil flashlight throws better than an aspherical flashlight? Or is it significant?

Does recoil thrower have spill?

I’ve never own any recoil thrower so I am not sure.

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A few things I noticed, and of course I’m interested… for Justin and Valerie, the BLF JV Classic. The classic from Thijsco19 looks almost exactly like an Olight SR-90 Intimidator. Might have to make some changes to the fins to get away from any copyright issues. Other than that, the simplicity of form as a carrier of function just works.

I put an XP-L W2 2B in an Convoy C8 yesterday (day before?) and got 2028 lumens at 6.6A. Something to think about.

Dale

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DB Custom wrote:

I put an XP-L W2 2B in an Convoy C8 yesterday (day before?) and got 2028 lumens at 6.6A. Something to think about.


What about the intensity in cd?
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Will update OP later

Behind the scenes TA and me are pmming with 5ar for a more in depth render of a design that is based on the Q8 design.
It will have its own look Wink

And I overstretched, for the groupbuy we can surely make sure Justin gets a donation for each light sold but after that it is probably much harder to keep that going and by making that a hard demand it could make it harder to find a manufacturer (or make manufacturer decide to make a knock off of the GT to save the $ and hassle). I will ask for it though but for now realistic a donation per groupbuy light.

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Lets just hope and pray something comes out of this.

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Interested. Please put me on the list.

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I’m interested in this light- please add me to the list.

cloggy

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Please add me to the interest list!

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Put me in for one please.

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ImA4Wheelr wrote:

IM supplied an estimated throw with XPL HI.  Response is:


“optical simulation of the xplhi LED with the 100-1332 LED. With 1klm, the intensity collimation is around 200 – 235 cd/lm, and 2.5 deg beam.”

Hmm, that would mean a total of ~300kcd? Seems pretty low for such a large reflector? The TN42 gets 2x that much with a much smaller reflector?

DB Custom wrote:
A few things I noticed, and of course I’m interested… for Justin and Valerie, the BLF JV Classic. The classic from Thijsco19 looks almost exactly like an Olight SR-90 Intimidator. Might have to make some changes to the fins to get away from any copyright issues. Other than that, the simplicity of form as a carrier of function just works.

I put an XP-L W2 2B in an Convoy C8 yesterday (day before?) and got 2028 lumens at 6.6A. Something to think about.

This is a domed LED correct? First off where are you finding these? I have not been able to find any W2 in neutral tints (although even 2B is not neutral).

In a pre-made light the LED needs to be a HI LED from the factory. Dedomed versions will be for modders to do later. It is simply not practical to sell a de-domed light from the factory. Too many possible issues plus the tint shift would not mesh with most people, including me.

So that leaves a V3 HI or an XHP35 far as I know. (assuming we could even get a V3 XP-L HI).

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So XPL hi or XHP35HI?
Any other LEDs worth considering?

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Haven’t seen this level of power in a binned domeless emitter from Cree. It could be in the works, but I haven’t heard anything about it.

Cutter in Australia is selling a W2 2B, it’s warmer than one might think, not sure if that means the tint bin is incorrect or just what is going on there, but it definitely shows up as a warm tint when viewed under a UV source.

Absolute long range output will almost certainly have to rely on the XHP-35. High output HI variants are not readily available and even if they were, the domeless emitter doesn’t produce throw like a de-domed high bin XP-L, proven fact. I’ve gotten 2 dozen of the new XP-L and they came on 10mm aluminum mcpcbs, attached in a sheet. It’d be comparatively easy to de-dome an entire panel at a time in a solvent, so it shouldn’t be completely out of line for consideration here.

Dale

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Jerommel, if indeed all the light is produced in parallel rays from that recoil type of lens/emitter arrangement, wouldn’t we have a relatively large diameter beam profile? Wouldn’t this be non-conducive to extreme throw range? And wouldn’t the arm be subject to damage if dropped? A small amount of mis-alignment and the beam would suffer horrendously. Even if there were 4 arms for strength, could we rely on a manufacturer to nail perfect placement of the emitter? Tricky stuff there, interesting yes, but we can barely get some of these folks to get focus and centering right with centering rings.
Are there working examples of this recoil type of light out there that might give an indication of performance? All I have seen have not fared so well.

Dale

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The issue is getting the factory to do reliable de-doming and then you have the un-escapable fact that they will tint shift.

While acceptable as a mod for sure, the average joe would see that and go yuck. The De-domed lights I have I don’t even show off anymore, people always mention the color after being amazed at the intensity.

Plus I figure that anyone that is interested enough in max throw also has the ability to install a de-domed LED. Particularly since this light will be designed for easy modding.

The base LED needs to be a factory emitter IMO.

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The only way I can see that a factory emitter is going to make long distance throw is if it’s the XHP-35 HI. No other factory variant I know of will do it.

Dale

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