Lexels driver compilation

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clientequator
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Lexel wrote:
on request of a 3 people I finally made this one the BLF development cost will add 10€ per board for first 12 drivers, not sure if I will ever sell that many !{width:100%}http://www.metronixlaser.de/bilder/flashlight/K65.png! also played a bit with fancy copper in Silk markings for 3D effect the copper inside silk should look good on white boards I prefer !{width:70%}https://644db4de3505c40a0444-327723bce298e3ff5813fb42baeefbaa.ssl.cf1.ra...! . +*Design highlights*+ . - thermal viases same as the SD75 (a lot of work pathing those from a bigh block into the shapes needed) - programming port - optimised ground routing for all signal components to reduce noise (first made in MF04S/MT09R drivers of later revisions after LDO tended to freak out sometimes on HT07S driver of early revision) - LVP voltage divider with added noise filtering (first made in MF04S/MT09R drivers of later revisions) *introduced new design stuff* - customized rounded pads on resistors and most other parts (manually adding 28 points per pad with calculated values from Excel table --> very time intensive for many footprints I have) - customized FET footprint - text following the round driver shape (its all manually done no feature in the program) - slot in board for switch board - copper in silkscreen text for 3 D effect - perfectly on a circle aligned rim viases, made as symetrical pattern instead manually placing each via (could be multiple rings like the BLF lantern has - FET diode and inductor rotated and moved for more efficient pattern and smalöler switching node copper area - panel with holes for "10mm grit 2.5mm pin solder paste plate ":http://www.hoektronics.com/2012/10/27/super-simple-smt-stencil8/ (had this previous for Fireflies panels, plate link from "BLF Hoop":http://budgetlightforum.com/user/5963) !{width:40%}http://www.hoektronics.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/IMG_23811.jpg! !{width:40%}https://644db4de3505c40a0444-327723bce298e3ff5813fb42baeefbaa.ssl.cf1.ra...!

 

Why did you use so many vias? This will greatly increase fabrication cost and decrease board strength, and will not improve thermal conductiveness to the shell of the flashlight. Even if you use oshpark for fabrication, they may suspect something odd and request removal of via since this is unnecessary and increases tooling/cost and manufacture time significantly.

Lexel
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just compare such a board to one without those viases yourself, it conducts heat a lot better
I tested it myself with IR camera

if its not really nessesary on this build anyway it keeps components cooler

There is no tooling costs or so
Tooling costs ect. come to play if you order n-thousand boards for minimal costs
I oder 10 100cm² boards for 17.8$ with ENIG

Oshparks ships you 12mm driver for below 1$ internationally with free shipping,
they are simply so expensive per square inch they can easily compensate such orders they pay on top or boards with a lot tooling work

there is no relevant mechanical weakening, the board gets pressed on outer diameter, no tension in the middle

clientequator
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Lexel wrote:
just compare such a board to one without those viases yourself, it conducts heat a lot better
I tested it myself with IR camera

if its not really nessesary on this build anyway it keeps components cooler

There is no tooling costs or so
Tooling costs ect. come to play if you order n-thousand boards for minimal costs
I oder 10 100cm² boards for 17.8$ with ENIG

Oshparks ships you 12mm driver for below 1$ internationally with free shipping,
they are simply so expensive per square inch they can easily compensate such orders they pay on top or boards with a lot tooling work

there is no relevant mechanical weakening, the board gets pressed on outer diameter, no tension in the middle

The main heat is dissipated by copper plan conduction radially on the copper planes. As a result, vias help in conduction of heat away from one layer and spreading them across more layer, especially applicable to multi-layer board with internal ground/power plane. Specifically for your design, main heat dissipation is by surface conduction to air, and then to what i presume to be the perimeter which connects to flashlight body. By adding so many via, the top-to-bottom heat conduction is very good, but at the cost of in-layer radial heat conduction because your holes remove something like half of surface copper! Overall with the additional copper, I think it’s a bit of a toss-up, but the benefit is not as much as you think, at significant fabrication cost and structural cost. 1/20th of the number of vias is more than sufficient for your application.

the majority of heat dissipated in most flashlight is in the led, so if there is a very good thermal bond between led and body, assuming body doesn’t dissipate heat well because most flashlight body have no fin or active cooling, it is even possible for the temperature near the head of the flashlight to become very hot. such, the main heat-sink of the driver pcb is now not effective much as a heatsink.

IT looks like your board connects to some spring to the battery, so mechanical strength is quite important since your PCB diameter is big. there is a lot of force that can be exerted on the middle because only the outside is supported. even if the PCBdont break, it can flex which can cause failure of solder joints on the other side of the pcb.

oshpark pcb is quite expensive compared to China pcb, so I think they can cover tooling cost. But if you fabricate this board at any other pcb plant, the prices will definitely be much higher if you ask for quote.

conclusion – my suggestion is that the vias be reduces for better pcb practices, and still be good performance. I appreciate your design so this is just my suggestion. Thank you for reading!

Lexel
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clientequator wrote:
Lexel wrote:
just compare such a board to one without those viases yourself, it conducts heat a lot better
I tested it myself with IR camera

if its not really nessesary on this build anyway it keeps components cooler

There is no tooling costs or so
Tooling costs ect. come to play if you order n-thousand boards for minimal costs
I oder 10 100cm² boards for 17.8$ with ENIG

Oshparks ships you 12mm driver for below 1$ internationally with free shipping,
they are simply so expensive per square inch they can easily compensate such orders they pay on top or boards with a lot tooling work

there is no relevant mechanical weakening, the board gets pressed on outer diameter, no tension in the middle

The main heat is dissipated by copper plan conduction radially on the copper planes. As a result, vias help in conduction of heat away from one layer and spreading them across more layer, especially applicable to multi-layer board with internal ground/power plane. Specifically for your design, main heat dissipation is by surface conduction to air, and then to what i presume to be the perimeter which connects to flashlight body. By adding so many via, the top-to-bottom heat conduction is very good, but at the cost of in-layer radial heat conduction because your holes remove something like half of surface copper! Overall with the additional copper, I think it’s a bit of a toss-up, but the benefit is not as much as you think, at significant fabrication cost and structural cost. 1/20th of the number of vias is more than sufficient for your application.

the majority of heat dissipated in most flashlight is in the led, so if there is a very good thermal bond between led and body, assuming body doesn’t dissipate heat well because most flashlight body have no fin or active cooling, it is even possible for the temperature near the head of the flashlight to become very hot. such, the main heat-sink of the driver pcb is now not effective much as a heatsink.

IT looks like your board connects to some spring to the battery, so mechanical strength is quite important since your PCB diameter is big. there is a lot of force that can be exerted on the middle because only the outside is supported. even if the PCBdont break, it can flex which can cause failure of solder joints on the other side of the pcb.

oshpark pcb is quite expensive compared to China pcb, so I think they can cover tooling cost. But if you fabricate this board at any other pcb plant, the prices will definitely be much higher if you ask for quote.

conclusion – my suggestion is that the vias be reduces for better pcb practices, and still be good performance. I appreciate your design so this is just my suggestion. Thank you for reading!

make a 20mm board with two 1oz copper planes and one with 0.35mm plated holes in a 0.55×0.48mm grit
put a 2512 3W resistor in the middle
clamp the outer 1.5mm bare copper ring between 2 aluminum plates that leave the inner PCB open or simply use a flashlight with retaining ring
measure the resistors temperature of both boards after 10 minute when its saturated

then talk again about sense and senseless of thermal viases

.

you forget that a via is a plated copper hole, so there is a lot copper inside the board also conducting heat radial, the thicker the board the more copper you add
even if you remove FR4 the copper conducts a lot more heat than the removed material

and you forget the main cooling comes from the bare copper rim of the driver touching the metal body,
getting the heat there is our goal and viases do it better
surface heat conduction to air is totally irrelevant inside a flashlight

you talk about removing half the surface copper this is totally right!
0.35mm plated hole removes 0.28mm copper circle in a 0.55× 0.48mm grit
so 0.12mm² copper removed inside a 0.264mm² area

but a via 0.35mm on a 1.6mm thick board adds about 5 times the copper you removed on surface inside the driver

calculate the copper inside a board

we remove 0.35mmx1.6mm FR4 this equals 0.31mm³ per via
FR4 thermal conductivity 0.25
0.25*0.31mm³=0.08

solid surface copper board volume
2*2π0.175²*0.035mm=0.0135mm³
Kupfer thermal conductivity 9355
0.0135mm²*9355=126
so the copper planes in 1 oz conduct more than 1000 times the heat than the FR4 does
so we can simply ignore the FR4 at all in the thermal equasion

surface copper removed 0.35mm hole minus 2 times 35um copper
A=2*2π*(0,175mm-0.035mm)=0.25mm²
V=0.25mm²*0.035mm=0.0086mm³
0.0086mm³*9355=80,5

lets look at the internal copper added
internal copper added A=(0.35-0.035)*0.035*π=0.034mm²
V=0.034mm²*1.6mm=0.055mm³

lets calculate the copper difference between the added and removed copper
0.055mm³-0.0086mm³=0.046mm³
thermal conductivity gained after calculating lost surface copper and added internal copper
0.046mm³*9355=430

so in the end the via copper conducts 430 while the removed copper would conduct 80.5
this is more than 5 times more heat conduction based on the coppers volume, sure the hollow cylinder does not conduct as good as a solid plane but in the end its likely still 4 times better

Its nice you theorize about the viases, practically they work like 2 times better than without them

clientequator
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Lexel wrote:
make a 20mm board with two 1oz copper planes and one with 0.35mm plated holes in a 0.55x0.48mm grit put a 2512 3W resistor in the middle clamp the outer 1.5mm bare copper ring between 2 aluminum plates that leave the inner PCB open or simply use a flashlight with retaining ring measure the resistors temperature of both boards after 10 minute when its saturated *then talk again about sense and senseless of thermal viases* . +you forget that a via is a plated copper hole, so there is a lot copper inside the board also conducting heat radial, the thicker the board the more copper you add+ +even if you remove FR4 the copper conducts a lot more heat than the removed material+ and you forget the main cooling comes from the bare copper rim of the driver touching the metal body, getting the heat there is our goal and viases do it better surface heat conduction to air is totally irrelevant inside a flashlight *you talk about removing half the surface copper this is totally right!* 0.35mm plated hole removes 0.28mm copper circle in a 0.55x 0.48mm grit so 0.12mm² copper removed inside a 0.264mm² area but a via 0.35mm on a 1.6mm thick board adds about 5 times the copper you removed on surface inside the driver +*calculate the copper inside a board*+ we remove 0.35mmx1.6mm FR4 this equals 0.31mm³ per via FR4 thermal conductivity 0.25 0.25*0.31mm³=0.08 solid surface copper board volume 2*2π0.175²*0.035mm=0.0135mm³ Kupfer thermal conductivity 9355 0.0135mm²*9355=126 *so the copper planes in 1 oz conduct more than 1000 times the heat than the FR4 does* so we can simply ignore the FR4 at all in the thermal equasion surface copper removed 0.35mm hole minus 2 times 35um copper A=2*2π*(0,175mm-0.035mm)=0.25mm² V=0.25mm²*0.035mm=0.0086mm³ *0.0086mm³*9355=80,5* lets look at the internal copper added internal copper added A=(0.35-0.035)*0.035*π=0.034mm² V=0.034mm²*1.6mm=0.055mm³ lets calculate the copper difference between the added and removed copper 0.055mm³-0.0086mm³=0.046mm³ thermal conductivity gained after calculating lost surface copper and added internal copper *0.046mm³*9355=430* so in the end the via copper conducts 430 while the removed copper would conduct 80.5 *this is more than 5 times more heat conduction based on the coppers volume, sure the hollow cylinder does not conduct as good as a solid plane but in the end its likely still 4 times better* Its nice you theorize about the viases, practically they work like 2 times better than without them

As said, conduction of heat to flashlight body can sometime be not as good as you imagine because powerful light (which require all those via anyway) likely has a very bright led, which make a lot of heat, so the local temperature near the ring around driver PCB can in some cases be quite warm, and thermal cooling by conduction may not be as good as you imagine. In event of efficient switching circuit on driver (versus linear), it is possible (at high led power) and high air temperature that the driver is cooler than the case.

As you mention, the bulk of copper is in the form of via, not in-plane copper. Adding holes to the in-plane copper significantly reduce in-plane thermal conduction (at the extent of the hole per area ratio). Therefore thermal conduction is not as good as you imagine. Immediate thermal sinking due to increased copper volume will help initially, but once thermal saturation occur, transmission is not as good as you imagine. 

Overall I think adding so many via is necessary and not provide much benefit (which is fine), but this come at a cost of significantly longer fabrication time and structural rigidity and board flex (lead to component solder joint breaking), which I think is not a good trade-off to make for robust and strong flashlight. 

Thank you for reading!

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Seems simple:
For conducting heat more copper is better than less.

2Q19

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It's not simple, there is always an optimum number and size of vias for such designs; with too many vias close to heat source you are creating bottleneck and cutting "heat supply" via top/bottom copper layer for more distant vias, so they become useless.

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Jerommel wrote:
Seems simple: For conducting heat more copper is better than less.

not simple; ‘more copper’ is not always better, because where the copper is, is important. Many scenario:

- if the goal is to sink heat away from source by a good cooling source like heatsink, radiator etc, then having additional copper mass is not ideal. instead, you need to have lowest thermal resistance away from heatsource. one example is thermal pipe used in cpu, instead of big copper block.

- in the above pcb where so many vias a drilled, then the surface copper is significantly reduced creating poor thermal path in-plane. yes you get better thermal conductivity plane-to-plane in z-axis, but too many via will reduce effectiveness for in-plane conduction.

- as a result, to conduct heat away from source, you can put many via near source to conduct heat from top to bottom plane (or internal if it exist), then you want to then reduce via away from source to maximize in-plane thermal conduction to the heat sink (flashlight body)

- in addition, adding so many via will lead to significant structural integrity tradeoff, which i think is no want for flashlight where the middle of the pcb contact battery

however for fun and to look interesting, this design is ok. i just want to suggest improvement in term of engineering practice. thank you for consideration!

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I have to agree in this with clientequator.
Moooore is not always better.

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Okay, point taken.
But you still make the fibre glass PCB conduct heat better, ALSO TO THE OUTER PERIMETER, by drilling out the fibre glass and inserting copper vias.
Lexel explained this too.
He even tested it.

2Q19

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there are very reliable things to improve it, but they can easily escalate the price of the board

1. add viases —> at our quantities for free
2. 2oz copper —> relative cheap but needs thicker traces and solder lands
3. 4 layer —> in chineese fabs increase costs quite a bit
4. ceramic PCB replacing fibre glass —> expensive
5. special thermal copper layer like 0.3mm inside the board —> very expensive, needs big batch to be produced

clientequator
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Lexel wrote:
there are very reliable things to improve it, but they can easily escalate the price of the board

1. add viases —> at our quantities for free
2. 2oz copper —> relative cheap but needs thicker traces and solder lands
3. 4 layer —> in chineese fabs increase costs quite a bit
4. ceramic PCB replacing fibre glass —> expensive
5. special thermal copper layer like 0.3mm inside the board —> very expensive, needs big batch to be produced

Quote:
Boost drivers:
still under development

1S or 2S Input
6V 6A or 12V 2.5A output

17mm
20-22mm
23mm special for Klarus XT Series
24-30mm

To lexel, do you have these drivers for sale? Do they do 6V 6A output?

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clientequator wrote:

Quote:
Boost drivers:
still under development

1S or 2S Input
6V 6A or 12V 2.5A output

17mm
20-22mm
23mm special for Klarus XT Series
24-30mm

To lexel, do you have these drivers for sale? Do they do 6V 6A output?


Not for sale yet. In previous tests he said it would do 6A output. At lower battery voltages the amp draw from the battery could get as high as 15A-16A IIRC, so it can put out some real power. Of course, the output level can be turned down to what you want. I think it’s a resistor swap to limit output. We just have to be patient.

BTW, I’ve been waiting about a year, so do not hold your breath. Lol

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clientequator
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JasonWW wrote:
clientequator wrote:

Quote:
Boost drivers:
still under development

1S or 2S Input
6V 6A or 12V 2.5A output

17mm
20-22mm
23mm special for Klarus XT Series
24-30mm

To lexel, do you have these drivers for sale? Do they do 6V 6A output?


Not for sale yet. In previous tests he said it would do 6A output. At lower battery voltages the amp draw from the battery could get as high as 15A-16A IIRC, so it can put out some real power. Of course, the output level can be turned down to what you want. I think it’s a resistor swap to limit output. We just have to be patient.

BTW, I’ve been waiting about a year, so do not hold your breath. Lol

thank you JasonWW. I see Loneoceans also has similar driver, but it seems it is also not for sale yet? Lexel can I build one myself?

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Loneoceans only designs, he does not build for sale.

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Basicaly I could build them but I got too much to do eith current sales, design and mods to work on them, same with high current buck

To build and sell untested drivers is not really a good idea, they may work in the beginning

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Lexel wrote:
same with high current buck

Interesting.
clientequator
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Lexel wrote:
Basicaly I could build them but I got too much to do eith current sales, design and mods to work on them, same with high current buck

To build and sell untested drivers is not really a good idea, they may work in the beginning

Is it possible to build it myself with your pcb and list of parts and program code? Small 6A boost driver is very useful for me. Thank you lexel. It seem some people like you, loneoceans, schoki is making such a driver, but so far i only see loneoceans with working design and flashlight. I am hope to build one myself.

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Mtn e is currently making and selling a boost driver, but it is only 17mm and for clicky lights at the moment. Bigger sizes and e-switch versions will be sold soon.

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JasonWW wrote:
Mtn e is currently making and selling a boost driver, but it is only 17mm and for clicky lights at the moment. Bigger sizes and e-switch versions will be sold soon.

Thank you jasonww! Is it this driver?
http://www.mtnelectronics.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id...

I think I may buy one. But I will like to try the 6A version made by lexel since it is much more powerful at 6A compare to 4.2A.

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yes a lot depends on the used Bost chip and thermal cooling, on my driver I would strongly suggest to pot around the Boost chip with aluminum oxide glue
you could try the same on MTN driver

Basically whats limiting output current atm is thermal properties of the board

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clientequator wrote:
JasonWW wrote:
Mtn e is currently making and selling a boost driver, but it is only 17mm and for clicky lights at the moment. Bigger sizes and e-switch versions will be sold soon.

Thank you jasonww! Is it this driver?
http://www.mtnelectronics.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id...

I think I may buy one. But I will like to try the 6A version made by lexel since it is much more powerful at 6A compare to 4.2A.


4.2A? That must be due to its small 17mm size (along with the 1.3A 12v output). The bigger ones are 6A just like Lexels (12v also goes up to 2.5A-3A). Roughly 50W seems to be the most you can get from these smallish sized boost drivers.

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Lexel, can your 24mm drivers be sanded down to 23mm?
I have the Amutorch VG10 that takes a 23mm driver, and I guess one of yours would be good to fit in, if I can sand it to 23mm! BTW, will it work fine with:
a) Forward Clicky Switch
b) OSRAM KW CSLNM1.TG – 1mm2

Thanks in advance!

BTW, about the driver for the BlitzWolf BW-ET1, I will let it stay still until I get a good solution! Thanks for your answers, though Wink

[REVIEWS] AMUTORCH: S3 / S3 vs 219c / AM30 / AX1 / VG10 /// SOFIRN: SF14 + SP10A / SP32A / SP10B /// NITEFOX: UT20 / ES10K / K3 /// ODEPRO: KL52 / B108 /// ACEBEAM: H20 / TK16 /// BLITZWOLF: BW-ET1 /// DQG: AA Slim Ti /// HC-LIGHTS: SS AAA /// XTAR: PB2 Charger /// OLIGHT: M2R Warrior /// WUBEN: TO10R / E05 / T70 / E10 /// ON THE ROAD: M1 / i3 / M3 Pro /// ROVYVON: A2 + A5R / E300S / A8 /// KLARUS: XT1C /// LUMINTOP: Tool AA V2.0 + Tool 25 /// LIVARNOLUX: 314791 /// SKILHUNT: M150

Tricks: 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 / 8 /// TIR Lenses: 1 / 2 /// Others: Biscotti 3 + 1*7135 / Triple TIR w/ XP-G2 ///// My Collection ///// My Review's Blog (PT)

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MascaratumB wrote:
Lexel, can your 24mm drivers be sanded down to 23mm?
I have the Amutorch VG10 that takes a 23mm driver, and I guess one of yours would be good to fit in, if I can sand it to 23mm! BTW, will it work fine with:
a) Forward Clicky Switch
b) OSRAM KW CSLNM1.TG – 1mm2

Thanks in advance!

BTW, about the driver for the BlitzWolf BW-ET1, I will let it stay still until I get a good solution! Thanks for your answers, though Wink

Buck driver easily sand down
the FET DD you may be careful with component side as then some are pretty close to the edge like 1mm

for 2S battery configuration a Buck regulated is possible but not yet for 1S

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Lexel wrote:
MascaratumB wrote:
Lexel, can your 24mm drivers be sanded down to 23mm?
I have the Amutorch VG10 that takes a 23mm driver, and I guess one of yours would be good to fit in, if I can sand it to 23mm! BTW, will it work fine with:
a) Forward Clicky Switch
b) OSRAM KW CSLNM1.TG – 1mm2

Thanks in advance!

BTW, about the driver for the BlitzWolf BW-ET1, I will let it stay still until I get a good solution! Thanks for your answers, though Wink

Buck driver easily sand down
the FET DD you may be careful with component side as then some are pretty close to the edge like 1mm

for 2S battery configuration a Buck regulated is possible but not yet for 1S

Hum…I guess I will want a FET DD (like the ones you sold me before), because I will use it just for one 18650 cell and clicky switch on the tail.
Am I correct in this choice?

If needed I can sand/file the host a little bit (on the inside), but there is few space. I guess using a 24mm driver will be better than using a 22 mm one, as there is not retaining ring nor “pill”.

[REVIEWS] AMUTORCH: S3 / S3 vs 219c / AM30 / AX1 / VG10 /// SOFIRN: SF14 + SP10A / SP32A / SP10B /// NITEFOX: UT20 / ES10K / K3 /// ODEPRO: KL52 / B108 /// ACEBEAM: H20 / TK16 /// BLITZWOLF: BW-ET1 /// DQG: AA Slim Ti /// HC-LIGHTS: SS AAA /// XTAR: PB2 Charger /// OLIGHT: M2R Warrior /// WUBEN: TO10R / E05 / T70 / E10 /// ON THE ROAD: M1 / i3 / M3 Pro /// ROVYVON: A2 + A5R / E300S / A8 /// KLARUS: XT1C /// LUMINTOP: Tool AA V2.0 + Tool 25 /// LIVARNOLUX: 314791 /// SKILHUNT: M150

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Lexel
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MascaratumB wrote:
Lexel wrote:
MascaratumB wrote:
Lexel, can your 24mm drivers be sanded down to 23mm?
I have the Amutorch VG10 that takes a 23mm driver, and I guess one of yours would be good to fit in, if I can sand it to 23mm! BTW, will it work fine with:
a) Forward Clicky Switch
b) OSRAM KW CSLNM1.TG – 1mm2

Thanks in advance!

BTW, about the driver for the BlitzWolf BW-ET1, I will let it stay still until I get a good solution! Thanks for your answers, though Wink

Buck driver easily sand down
the FET DD you may be careful with component side as then some are pretty close to the edge like 1mm

for 2S battery configuration a Buck regulated is possible but not yet for 1S

Hum…I guess I will want a FET DD (like the ones you sold me before), because I will use it just for one 18650 cell and clicky switch on the tail.
Am I correct in this choice?

If needed I can sand/file the host a little bit (on the inside), but there is few space. I guess using a 24mm driver will be better than using a 22 mm one, as there is not retaining ring nor “pill”.

1mm² Oslon needs regulated output or will burn
e-switch or clicky is just UI, if the LED works with battery is on DD an equasion between
battery voltage sag + conduction voltage drop
and
LED voltage

when both is equal you get a current which drops with battery charge status constantly

a battery with higher internal resistance has more sag, but this wont do the trick on an led with that low forwqard voltage and to about 4A limited max current

Th558
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What driver will be suitable for driving an osram cslpm1.tg at 7 amps in a convoy L2

Lexel
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Th558 wrote:
What driver will be suitable for driving an osram cslpm1.tg at 7 amps in a convoy L2

30mm buck as shown in first post, its listed under L6

Th558
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Lexel wrote:
Th558 wrote:
What driver will be suitable for driving an osram cslpm1.tg at 7 amps in a convoy L2

30mm buck as shown in first post, its listed under L6
!{width:70%}http://www.metronixlaser.de/bilder/flashlight/30mm_Buck_v3.1.png!


Will it fit in an L2 though or only L6?
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The L6 has 30mm driver and the L2 has 20mm. Or a very early L2 has 17mm.

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