Lost shipment!! -- How was your case handled? :)

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IndyArcher
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cehowardGS wrote:

IndyArcher wrote:

No, I don't take out insurance on EVERY order.  

Okay, since we are having a friendly debate on this, let me clarify. Wink

I have sent Ebay items that I am selling for over $200, I am sending them USPS, I do not insure! Am I gambling? My answer is no.

Let me go deeper, a 1000 to 1 is not gambling even 500 to 1. Almost a sure thing.   IMO, that is the chances that you lose something in the mail.  Also when I order something, I never take out insurance. If it is lost, or I don't get it, I go to the seller and settle  it there. If there is a problem, I go to Ebay and or Paypal. I am like the OP, insurance adds to the price. Now, there are instances where I might take out insurance, but they are very, very small.

Again, we are not gambling when we don't take out insurance on orders, overseas or nationwide..Wink

 

 

In the interest of friendly debate, you do understand that gambling is all about playing ODDS, right? And you just gave me your rationale based on ODDS. You even stated that it is *almost* a sure thing, indicating that it's NOT a sure thing. Now aside from wondering where you got your statistics, the term still generally fits. On the other hand, the phrase "it's a gamble" doesn't really mean you're gambling, but instead that some level of risk is involved, which solely based on the fact that the package HASN'T arrived as expected, would seem somewhat without need of mentioning. 

kreisler
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vēer wrote:

Didnt bother to read all posts, but my brother ordered knife from USA around the same time that you did, Kreisler, and his hasnt arrived yet either.

Perhaps they are all stuck at USA border control?

woah. that sounds like good news, thanks. i am full of hope that the little package (worth 32$) is still somewhere somehow in transit and i am really willing to wait patiently the 60d total because i never had any lost shipments till now: since Oct 2011 i handled ~60 shipments (incl. 6 outgoing) and every single shipment (most of which without tracking number) got to its destination, eventually. it means that i dont believe in lost shipments: shipping to my address is safe. what bugs me is Flashlights USA's righteous attitude which lets me down and drives me into calling for PP. i will have a bad conscience when i eventually receive the package. Disputing via PP is not nice Embarassed

*FMI* i got 4 i/o sh
Woody
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Perhaps I'm being simplistic, but it strikes me that if I order something, I expect to receive it.

All very well for the seller to try to pass the risk of non-delivery onto the buyer via an insurance company (for which, presumably,he receives a hefty commission ).  OK, it isn't the seller's fault, but it sure as hell ain't mine if it doesn't arrive. Seems to me that the seller should build in to his price the very small risk of stuff getting lost in the post without trying to pass the cost of doing so onto the buyer through "insurance".

And really, do you suppose many of  these companies take out a genuine insurance policy, or just take the risk themselves?

 

kreisler
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Woody wrote:

Perhaps I'm being simplistic, but it strikes me that if I order something, I expect to receive it.

All very well for the seller to try to pass the risk of non-delivery onto the buyer via an insurance company (for which, presumably,he receives a hefty commission ).  OK, it isn't the seller's fault, but it sure as hell ain't mine if it doesn't arrive.

+ 1

we're on the same page Woody Wink

*FMI* i got 4 i/o sh
SashiX
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+1 for Woody too Wink

IndyArcher
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Woody wrote:

Perhaps I'm being simplistic, but it strikes me that if I order something, I expect to receive it.

No argument there. But if the seller does everything on their part to ensure it gets there, then what's the beef with them?

 

Woody wrote:
All very well for the seller to try to pass the risk of non-delivery onto the buyer via an insurance company (for which, presumably,he receives a hefty commission ).

Huh?  Who receives the commission, the seller?  I've insured many a package when shipping via UPS and I've never received a 'commission' from it.

 

Woody wrote:
OK, it isn't the seller's fault, but it sure as hell ain't mine if it doesn't arrive. Seems to me that the seller should build in to his price the very small risk of stuff getting lost in the post without trying to pass the cost of doing so onto the buyer through "insurance".

So there's absolutely no responsibility on the part of the buyer to even verify that the one with whom they've contracted insures their shipments? If that's actually a concern of the buyer, I would think that the buyer would check that out BEFORE he buys. Surely everyone understands that there's a possibility that a shipment could get lost/stolen in transit--even MORE so when the shipper offers the OPTION of insuring the shipment. If having the seller insure the shipment is important, and if the buyer thinks that it should be the seller's responsibility, then why didn't the buyer simply cancel the order before clicking 'confirm' on the order page. Because he thought he could beat the odds, that's why. And when he didn't, he blamed the seller for his own failure to apply foresight to his situation or his unwillingness to accept the consequences.

I suppose the seller should be able to read the mind of the buyer and should click 'cancel order' automatically if the buyer doesn't choose the insurance option? 

 

Woody wrote:
And really, do you suppose many of  these companies take out a genuine insurance policy, or just take the risk themselves? 

So?  What's it matter if they are taking all the risk themselves or if they are allowing a third party to remove or dilute their risk? I don't see what that has any bearing on the issue at all. 

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I'll let you know on Tuesday.

I like: walks on the beach, sushi and things that are paisley.

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The point is absolutely mute since insurance isn't an option on international ... so whatever way you morally or ethicly feel  doesn't matter a bit ..if you want insurance it costs 20$ not 2$ not 5$ and add to that the fact you have to ship via a hugely expensive route too so your 32$ flashlight deal turns into 32 +20+23+75$...easy answer .. there is no insurance unless you want to pay for it ...and when you think about it ..it's a pretty reasonable question to ask a buyer ..one I always ask when I sell a light ..(do you want insurance ) << that means .....do you accept the loss if this light shows up ...never ?? Because I'll have proof I sent it ...I think too much abusing poor ebay sellers and chinese sellers  has made everyone soft .. Do you really want a blf member hitting you with a paypal dispute .??

I see both sides to this arguement ....I think youhave to hit the paypal button to get some attention from them ..there is still a lot of time after you do so ...Waiting is the hardest part

       καὶ τὸ φῶς ἐν τῇ σκοτίᾳ φαίνει καὶ ἡ σκοτία αὐτὸ οὐ κατέλαβεν

                            

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cehowardGS
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SashiX wrote:

+1 for Woody too Wink

I think Woody put it very nicely for all of us!! Wink

+100000000 for Woody... Wink

 

70+, Old, Dirty and Fast..

cehowardGS
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IndyArcher wrote:

Woody wrote:

Perhaps I'm being simplistic, but it strikes me that if I order something, I expect to receive it.

No argument there. But if the seller does everything on their part to ensure it gets there, then what's the beef with them?

 

It is no BEEF with them, be we are looking at them for accountability!! It is the seller's responsibility to see that we get what we ordered, not the buyer's!!

You are putting the blame on the buyer if the item is not received, and even putting the buyer down for not taking out insurance. That is not one wrong, but two wrongs. Everybody seem to understand it that way except you.. Again, we can go to the odds. If 500 people think ONE WAY, and 1 person thinks ANOTHER WAY,  in a friendly way, who you think is right!! Laughing 

 

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IndyArcher
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cehowardGS wrote:

SashiX wrote:

+1 for Woody too Wink

I think Woody put it very nicely for all of us!! Wink

+100000000 for Woody... Wink

 

 

Well, not ALL of us exactly… Tongue Out

IndyArcher
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cehowardGS wrote:

IndyArcher wrote:

Woody wrote:

Perhaps I'm being simplistic, but it strikes me that if I order something, I expect to receive it.

No argument there. But if the seller does everything on their part to ensure it gets there, then what's the beef with them?

 

It is no BEEF with them, be we are looking at them for accountability!! It is the seller's responsibility to see that we get what we ordered, not the buyer's!!

You are putting the blame on the buyer if the item is not received, and even putting the buyer down for not taking out insurance. That is not one wrong, but two wrongs. Everybody seem to understand it that way except you.. Again, we can go to the odds. If 500 people think ONE WAY, and 1 person thinks ANOTHER WAY,  in a friendly way, who you think is right!! Laughing 

 

 

An awful lot of bad things have happened over the years by playing the majority/minority game, so you're not going to get a concession there.

I will certainly admit some surprise on my behalf when I consider the following:

  • Buyer admits that insurance was offered.
  • Buyer admits intentionally not accepting insurance for $5.
  • Buyer could have canceled the order prior to placing it if he didn't like the terms.
  • Order was possibly lost and wasn't insured and the buyer can't prove that he didn't receive the item. 
  • Buyer (and most/all here) still desire to hold seller accountable for items 'not received'. 

Yep. Still doesn't add up to me. Never will I don't reckon. 

BTW, I'm not 'putting the buyer down' in any way, shape, manner or form. He's probably quite the upstanding individual. I simply don't see it as practical to put the accountability/responsibility on the seller that the item is lost in this particular case. Had insurance not been offered, I'd have absolutely no problem with putting this on the seller. But since it WAS offered, and since it was refused and the order could have easily been stopped at that point, then I say it's on the seller at this point.

It's a bit surprising that not another person's willing to admit they agree, or even more so if not another person actually does agree, but I'm pretty firm in my convictions, so no sweating here. 

edc
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The way I see insurance is like this. Ten people pay it and one package gets lost then the seller can send another package without loss. If you don't take insurance you accept the risk. It is like gambling. For expensive items I will take it if available. There are some dishonest people working for the postal service. Hopefully the light will turn up and its just delayed somewhere.

 

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To pay extra insurance is supporting theft since nobody will do anything about it.

Lennart

Lennart

kreisler
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good discussion. i think most people here wouldnt agree with IndyArcher. another take is, neither the sender nor the recipient should be blamed or held responsible for loss or theft. the only to blame is the carrier imho who f***ed up what was their job in the first place: you pay for shipping and it is not asked too much from the carrier that, with this money, the carrier actually does its job and ensures the delivery of the consignment to the front door of the addressee. there should be no need or option for insurance if the carrier only did its job properly! and the carrier's insurance company should cover cases of theft/loss/broken items fully (and yes, this would support theft).

Saturday, another morning has passed, no mailman, no USPS envelope, .. Boaz is right, waiting is the hardest part.

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edc
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I have sent over 150 parcels via Australia post. One went missing. I was told bad luck I should have sent it registered post. Although the buyer chose not to pay extra for registered post ( $3 for up to $100 cover) I replaced the items at my cost. I do however choose registered post more often now. Speaking about postal thieves. My friend sent a $1000 gold bracelet in the mail with appropriate insurance. An empty box was delivered. So someone had carefully opened the parcel, taken the bracelet out and wrapped it back up. Very disappointing all round.

 

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Ok, firstly let me say that I sympathise - and empathise - with The kreis. How can I not do? All the more so since this is a classic example of 'The Little Guy' vs the Greedy Multi-national Corporation .  Kreisler, I've done the same thing myself - I'm sure we all have -  and I hope you get a result out of this. Would you have had to sign for this package? If so, at least you have proof that you didn't receive it, which might help with Paypal.

That said, I have to be honest and admit that I also can see both sides here. Let's face it, ordering online always contains an element of risk, and whilst it might be understandable to want the seller to carry 100% of responsibility, it isn't necessarily practical to expect it. The sad fact is that stuff does sometimes go missing and the point that I think some people might be missing is that the seller doesn't do the delivering themselves. Here in the UK we're kind of resigned to this as it's sadly common for items to go missing in transit across town, never mind across the globe.

There are so many other pairs of hands, and so many ways for an item to go awol once a package has been sent and is into the shipping system, and as others have said, there is a limit to just how much a seller can do to ensure a package arrives. Yes, they could swallow every loss, but then their prices would go up. This way they're offering the customer a choice as to whether to pay a bit more for peace of mind. I actually think that, for all that we moan when things go wrong, Chinese sellers have spoiled us. We get low prices, free shipping (usually) and - most surprising of all - if we say that something hasn't arrived, more often than not we get a replacement or a full refund, and they take our word for it! This is astonishing when you stop to think about it, and I worry how they do it. I mean how low must their expenses (workers' wages!) be? I may be wrong, but I'd bet that Fenix USA have to pay a much higher minimum wage..

Of course we shouldn't have to pay insurance for shipping. As Lennart says, there is an element of encouraging crime about it, and apart from that, shipping insurance means we're basically paying twice for the same service. It's exactly like the 'extended warranty' scam; why should I have to pay extra money (quite a lot here in the UK) to ensure that I get a reasonable working life out of a product that I've already paid for? Extended warranty payments could be said to be encouraging built in product failure rates; as long as customers are aware of these breakdown risks and are prepared to pay to avoid the cost of repairing something that shouldn't have gone 'pffft!' in the first place, manufacturers (and retailers) have no incentive to improve QC or PWL (Product Working Life). 

Bottom line is that *@%# happens, and sooner or later it's going to land on each of us to one extent or another. The simple question we have to ask ourselves is "Do I feel lucky?" If 'yes', I can save a few bucks by taking a chance. If not, I'll pay a bit more for peace of mind. I have never paid shipping insuarance, but then I've never had to swallow the cost of a lost item. Had this ever happened to me, or if I was ordering an expensive enough item I might pay the extra. Good luck, kreisler, hope you get your flashlight Wink

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beautiful reasonable post, thanks so much. i certainly felt lucky so far and i am very grateful for the many savings and advantages i got from generous dealers such as HKE and DD; maybe they never earned much profit by dealing with me, nonetheless i am welcome there as happy satisfied returning customer which i really am. you see me recommending them all the time. that's the best "earning profit" out of a customer in the long run, isnt it?

this case would be the first real setback in my flashlight budgeteer's career if PP cant bail me out at the end of the PP claim. If Flashlights USA burns a blatant customer like me, .. does no good to them Wink

'paying extra for something which we had already paid for' .. i luv that reasoning Cool and i totally agree

 

!!

*FMI* i got 4 i/o sh
cehowardGS
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IndyArcher wrote:

cehowardGS wrote:

SashiX wrote:

+1 for Woody too Wink

I think Woody put it very nicely for all of us!! Wink

+100000000 for Woody... Wink

 

 Well, not ALL of us exactly… Tongue Out

Ha, ya knew you wasn't in that bunch!! Cool

70+, Old, Dirty and Fast..

cehowardGS
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kreisler wrote:

good discussion. i think most people here wouldnt agree with IndyArcher.

Ha, that is an understatement! Laughing

kreisler wrote:

another take is, neither the sender nor the recipient should be blamed or held responsible for loss or theft. the only to blame is the carrier imho who f***ed up what was their job in the first place: you pay for shipping and it is not asked too much from the carrier that, with this money, the carrier actually does its job and ensures the delivery of the consignment to the front door of the addressee. there should be no need or option for insurance if the carrier only did its job properly! and the carrier's insurance company should cover cases of theft/loss/broken items fully (and yes, this would support theft).

Saturday, another morning has passed, no mailman, no USPS envelope, .. Boaz is right, waiting is the hardest part.

I agree, the sender or the recipient should not be blamed. However, and I mean a big However too, the next move is up to the SENDER.  IMO, and I am sure the opinion of the majority here and most sellers everywhere, if a recipient did NOT get the package, the seller makes it right.

Now, I always get tracking, that is the one of the tools the seller can used to see what happened. Because if it comes up "delivered", then the seller can request an explanation of what happened, and IMO, on a delivered item, that takes the seller off the hook.

I have had a package that the tracking marked "delivered" but I didn't get it, and the seller made it right. They sent me another item.

But, to tell a buyer that didn't get their package "tough chit" because you didn't get insurance, or for every buyer to get insurance, IMO, and I might be wrong, but is WAY off base.

Also, I realized that everybody's opinon is valid.. However, through the length of my years, I do know that everybody opinion can't be correct. Sometimes they are just plain wrong..

Again, good discussion here too.. Wink

70+, Old, Dirty and Fast..

Lennart
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I have signed for $2 items from China.

 They might have used "Return receipt CN07" (think thats what it´s called in English). "Avis de rèception denvoi" in postal lingo.

 Lennart

 

Lennart

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Woody wrote:

Perhaps I'm being simplistic, but it strikes me that if I order something, I expect to receive it.

All very well for the seller to try to pass the risk of non-delivery onto the buyer via an insurance company (for which, presumably,he receives a hefty commission ).  OK, it isn't the seller's fault, but it sure as hell ain't mine if it doesn't arrive. Seems to me that the seller should build in to his price the very small risk of stuff getting lost in the post without trying to pass the cost of doing so onto the buyer through "insurance".

And really, do you suppose many of  these companies take out a genuine insurance policy, or just take the risk themselves?

 

Exactly!!

 

He has got my money - I want the goods!!!  Its bullshit to put the blame on me

if they dont show up in my mailbox

Cheap quality is good - Expensive crap isn´t

kreisler
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Ok, i've opened a paypal dispute on Day44 (today!):

As some members stated, we little consumers shouldnt be made pay twice for basically the same service: delivery of the goods we already paid for ("prepaid" thru paypal or credit card). imho the main responsible for the malheur is the carrier (who failed to do his job!), the next to blame imho is the sender (it's his goods and his business and his reputation so he should make sure (ensure/insure) that all parties are covered). well, IndyArcher wouldnt agree with my imho and maybe some bada$$ dealer wouldnt agree either with my view, so there we have it. A dispute. May PP come to the rescue.

*FMI* i got 4 i/o sh
Pulsar13
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Hey kreisl, you sure you didn't use your HK address by mistake? You know, Santa Monica Blvd #22395Tongue Out

kreisler
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Pulsar13 wrote:

Hey kreisl, you sure you didn't use your HK address by mistake? You know, Santa Monica Blvd #22395? Tongue Out

Santa Monica Blvd is in L.A. afaik not HK. i do live in Gemany, you can ask summer Silly ( you'd have to trust her word. hehe. he. )

*FMI* i got 4 i/o sh
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Haggai wrote:

SuntekStore currently use some delay tactic and ask me repeatedly to wait, but since it's a 1.8$ item I didn't bother with a PayPal dispute and I hope they'll just resend it eventually.

phew, they finally agreed to ship it today (not before confirming my address again). So I guess I can add them to the "good guys" that care for the customer even after PayPal's dispute deadline.

Let's hope this time it arrives...

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kreisler wrote:

Ok, i've opened a paypal dispute on Day44 (today!):

As some members stated, we little consumers shouldnt be made pay twice for basically the same service: delivery of the goods we already paid for ("prepaid" thru paypal or credit card). imho the main responsible for the malheur is the carrier (who failed to do his job!), the next to blame imho is the sender (it's his goods and his business and his reputation so he should make sure (ensure/insure) that all parties are covered). well, IndyArcher wouldnt agree with my imho and maybe some bada$$ dealer wouldnt agree either with my view, so there we have it. A dispute. May PP come to the rescue.

Yes Kreisler, we get someone else"s SS check (we take it to there house) once or twice a year. Get Neighbor"s packages,they will get our"s (accidentally).

Keith

kreisler
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Hi, news from today: i've received the package finally, after almost 2.0 months!! Obvious reason for the late delivery, the USPS address label sticker did not show the full address because parts of the address (ZIP code, ..) were truncated by the label printer machine. i dont know WHO printed the USPS address label sticker (Flashlights USA?, USPS?, moron?, printer?,..), in any case the package was mal-addressed and the address had to be corrected/completed by ingenious German post officers ("to re-address").

happy with the fact that the waiting has ended, huge relief, i am not satisfied with the product itself; the shipped sample could be much better ( i know it because i own the product already hah!! ). instead of following the PP route even longer/more i decided to close the PP dispute AND contact the company (CS + CEO) to ask for an offer of amends. the point is, if some great recommended seller like HKE sends me flawless specimen i will not complain ever but accept the higher HKE prices. so when some other dealer (Flashlights USA, 1st time shopping experience) sends me a specimen which my otherwise preferred dealer (HKE!) would not have dared to send me without a clear warning, then i cant accept the shipped quality (poor QC by Flashlights USA!).

I certainly regret 2 things regarding this order:

1. i should have placed the order with HKE in the 1st place, as always! trying to save a few bucks (by ordering from Flashlights USA) ends now in more trouble.

2. i should not have ordered the product at all. it was a rash purchase decision, and i am not interested in the product anymore.. also because i own it already.

Great reviewer as i am (with trusted recommendations and helpful details in my reviews), HKE is a great seller (with trusted warnings and honest assessment of stocked samples) as well. kreisler, HKE, Flashlights USA?? --- great, great, not too great. ( i can blow my own horn cant i? Wink )

So my advice to you guys is:

Dont buy a flashlight which you dont really want to buy!


On a side note, different product: Just to give you an example how clear HKE checks samples in stock and communicates with full expertise and wise reasoning:

From this email the reader can conclude that both samples are not fully satisfactory to the critical eye (like bada$$ me!), and one feels warned.

*FMI* i got 4 i/o sh
NightCrawl
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From my current experience with manafont, I learned to never trust any chinese company again. I didnt open a claim because MF has always been reliable and helpful, but my order from 17/03/2012 still didnt show up. And they started answering my emails very slowly as soon as I asked for a refund (before: <24h, now: >48h).

So next time, instant claim.

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edc wrote:
Speaking about postal thieves. My friend sent a $1000 gold bracelet in the mail with appropriate insurance. An empty box was delivered. So someone had carefully opened the parcel, taken the bracelet out and wrapped it back up. Very disappointing all round.

Similar stuff happened to one of my friends. Package was ensured, $200. Was opened and then wrapped again. Those fucked thieves always take that into account. Man, I’m almost 100% sure, that if that person instead of declaring that, had written “$hit inside. Insurance: .01c” nobody would open that package.

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