[retired] [WIP] 20mm single sided & 17mm double-sided ?-amp linear driver - surprisingly good!

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wight
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[retired] [WIP] 20mm single sided & 17mm double-sided ?-amp linear driver - surprisingly good!

Previously titled “[WIP] 20mm single sided & 17mm double-sided ?-amp linear driver which nobody wanted ;)”

This is not my most beautiful looking work. I’m only so enthusiastic about the driver in fact. It is a work in progress, please do not assume that it will work properly.

Here is some information:

  • This driver is a linear driver with PWM. Like a Nanjg-105c or QLite, not like the led4power LD-1.
  • The controller is a QX7136. This is not the same thing as a 7135.
  • It uses sense resistors to set current.
  • ‘Current Sense’ voltage is 50mV, probably similar to what a 7135 is doing internally? The QX7136 claims to have a 100mV dropout, 20mV lower (better) than a 7135.
  • Uses a Power-SO8 FET like other recent stuff. (LFPAK56 & etc.)

Features:

  • 1mm component keepout around the edge.
  • 1mm solid GND around the edge (no other traces extend into this area).
  • Zener ready.
  • Offtime ready.
  • Single sided.
  • 1.2mm LED+ and LED- vias.
  • Two 1206 sense resistors.

I expect performance to be similar to a single channel of the Supfire M6 driver.

The 50mV sense voltage is lower than some other drivers. Due to the low sense voltage, extremely low value sense resistors are needed. For 2A you’ll need a pair of R050, for 5A you’d use a single R010, for 10A you’d use a pair of R010, etc.


https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/o42VCHG7

EDIT: See post #6 for 17mm v003

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Edited by: wight on 02/07/2015 - 21:09
wight
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Reserved.

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musicmagic
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I am going to sound unedumicated here, but whats the point of this driver? is it like a 7135 driver, but just with a different method / components? Or is just simply higher amperage? like a fet/7135 crossover?

If you can’t blind them with your brilliance, baffle them with your bullcrap.

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wight
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musicmagic wrote:
I am going to sound unedumicated here, but whats the point of this driver? is it like a 7135 driver, but just with a different method / components? Or is just simply higher amperage? like a fet/7135 crossover?
It started out as a 17mm driver, but would not fit. Sad

It should be able to supply pretty high current. It doesn’t require a pile of 7135’s. It all fits on one side. A normal single-sided 7135 based driver of this size might fit 5 or 6×7135, so maybe ~2.3A max.

Hmm, that reminds of of a feature I forgot to implement… I was thinking that it would be nice to implement a bypass where the ATtiny could pull the Gate pin on the FET high for “turbo” type stuff. There isn’t space in the current layout, but an air-wire could easily do it. EDIT: yes there is… clearly Pin5 and the trace it needs to connect to are right next to each other. Oops. Wink

When I get more motivated I’ll take another stab at cramming this into 17mm. While the LD-1 is clearly a superior driver for single cell applications and hotrod SRK’s… this driver can run an MT-G2.

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TheGloriousTachikoma
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Would it also work in a 3s-3up light? And what sort of programming would the MCU need?

wight
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musicmagic wrote:
I am going to sound unedumicated here, but whats the point of this driver?
I forgot: the other point of this driver is that I got confused and bought some QX7136’s thinking that I could do something with them I could not. Smile :~ So I needed to make something to use those up.

TheGloriousTachikoma wrote:

Would it also work in a 3s-3up light? And what sort of programming would the MCU need?

It should work fine in that application. The MCU would run the same code as normal, STAR & etc. Pinout is the standard pinout used by most ATtiny13A based drivers here on BLF. A DrJones MCU would be fine as well.

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wight
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OK, so this is more like what’s required to fit it in 17mm:

https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/P6EcXEmU

  • Again, somewhat sloppy.
  • There should be appropriate clearances around the MCU for a Pomona SOIC clip. (As usual. Measured as a 6.4mm x 8mm tall rectangle around the MCU.)
  • 9mm spring pad.
  • “turbo” bypass implemented in this version on Pin5. The ATtiny can bypass the QX7136 for a turbo limited only by the sense resistors and FET.
  • Normal PWM output remains on Pin6 (eg the standard pinout).

So I guess the idea for this 17mm one is a “big power” MT-G2 driver in 17mm… and also to use up those pesky QX7136’s of course! Wink

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Cereal_killer
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What’s the calculation for the power rating required for the sense resistor’s?

The issue I ran into trying to use 1206’s in extremely low value’s for sense resistor’s in some of my drivers was that there just isnt high power rated 1206’s out (very very few 1W and a few more 3/4w) and there’s only one brand of those (vishay dale) and they’re VERY expensive and there isnt a large selection of them available in small quantities.

 RIP  SPC Joey Riley, KIA 11/24/14. Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.

wight
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Cereal_killer wrote:
What’s the calculation for the power rating required for the sense resistor’s?

The issue I ran into trying to use 1206’s in extremely low value’s for sense resistor’s in some of my drivers was that there just isnt high power rated 1206’s out (very very few 1W and a few more 3/4w) and there’s only one brand of those (vishay dale) and they’re VERY expensive and there isnt a large selection of them available in small quantities.

You simply calculate the power dissipated. Current multiplied by voltage drop. In this case the voltage drop is extremely low, so Power is as well. At 10A drive current you’re looking at 0.5W total (0.25W per resistor). At 20A you’re looking at 1.0W total, 0.5W per resistor. That should be easy to purchase at a fair price. ($0.40 to $1.00 each in QTY=1)

I think you may have been using a relatively high sense voltage?

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Hikelite
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I must say all designs on the forums just blow away Chinese designs in simplicity and features, even using their own stuff like QX7135 or QX7136.

wight
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Thanks Hikelite.

I should point out that anyone who plans to run 5/10/20A? through one of these should plan on heatsinking the FET properly. Potting it in epoxy is probably a good option. This driver is also compatible with the ‘remote’ boards led4power posted on OSH Park. The same wiring and cautions apply.

Also, if you setup your driver for 5A and then use the turbo bypass business to achieve 15A you will take the sense resistors beyond their ratings. I wouldn’t worry too much about it as long as you pot them. Or just don’t use the turbo bypass stuff, it’s not necessary.

If you start with the knowledge that your setup will do X-watts in DD and work backwards you can establish a safe regulated current so as not to take the sense resistors beyond spec. For example, say you know that your light will do 20A in DD. We’ll be splitting 20A between two resistors, so 10A per resistor. If we can afford a pair of 1W resistors for this project, we can use an Ohms Law calculator with that and the 10A figure and establish a resistance of 0.01 ohms. So with two in parallel we’d have 0.005 ohms, which works out to 10A regulated. Therefore for a light which does ~20A DD (turbo bypass) we’ll need to regulate at 10A for regular modes in order to keep the sense resistors in spec. As I said, I expect that we can exceed spec with potting.

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Cereal_killer
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I’m interested in this driver, I have lots of 7136’s (and everything else too). Would you be willing to send me your files, or at minimum your .sch and I’ll make my own board?

 RIP  SPC Joey Riley, KIA 11/24/14. Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.

wight
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wight
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Err, also note that the 17mm v003 board is missing GND vias. I will be posting an updated version.

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wight
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Well, I’ve just done my first test of the QX7136. It seems to operate as expected, no surprises. I used a small bank of FastTech R100 1206 sense resistors – I started with 3x and then moved to 5x.

Based on the results I got, I think these FT components are around 0.105 to 0.110 ohms. 5x of them gave 2.29A, close to the expected value of 2.5A but no cigar. About right for R105-R110 though. I measured the voltage across the bank while in operation and got 0.049v – I have little doubt that my meter is off by 0.001v and the little IC is right on point. Smile

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looking forward to seeing how this gets used.

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wight
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I did some cleanup to the 17mm version this evening. No major changes.

  • Added GND ring vias.
  • Made LED+ and LED- vias directly perpendicular to each other and evenly spaced from the edge of the PCB.
  • Added a covered pad for LED+.
  • Straightened up the bottom a small amount.


https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/flBsJz93

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wight
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OK, I did some testing.

We’ll need an FET better suited to this purpose than NXP PSMN3R0-30YLD or Vishay 70N02. Supfire’s M6 driver uses Din-Tek 30N02 (DTU30N02). Unfortunately DTU30N02 is a DPAK part, making it rather large (phsyically) for this application. I don’t fully understand what makes this part a better fit than the other FETs, but I’m working on it. One clear difference is the Threshold Voltage.

Maybe Vishay’s SiR800DP is a good option, datasheet link. Gate charge is higher than DTU30N02, but still in the range of what I think is reasonable (someone correct me!). Drain and dissipation are higher as well, not that they matter at this level (both are very high/good). Also, “Applications” listed in the datasheet are similar. Wink

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wight
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I flashed STAR momentary v1.0 on an ATtiny13A with these modifications:

  • disabled turbo
  • disabled LVP
  • switched to Phase Correct PWM (maintained standard fuses)
  • #define MODES 0,5,10,15,20,25,30,35,40,45,50,55,60,70,80,90,100,125,220,230,240,250,255

Here is my stripboard setup with a DTU30N02 and 4v input. As before I’m setup with 5x cheap R100 which achieves a regulated 2.29A

At the lowest output levels the scope’s interference is too much for the QX7136 to cope with, so output flickers and the waveform shown is inaccurate. Here is a “big picture” shot of the waveform generated at a “low” level.

As you can see, there is a lot of noise on that. Zooming in, we see the nature of the noise.

I think that the output waveform looks very agreeable. Note that the pictures show an output of maybe 2.4v! While this may not be the smoothest output ever, it’s free of the normal “off” pulses we see from a 7135 driver. I think that this driver will be much more efficient than I realized at low levels. Note that in the most zoomed in image, voltage never drops below 1.7v and does not exceed 3v.

There are a lot of modes, so I do not absolutely guarantee that these are 100% lined up, but they should be quite close. These are shots of what the controller was doing with the DRV output to the gate. Note that there is only so much juice available on DRV and the scope may have disrupted behavior some at lower drive levels.
PWM Level: 0/255
PWM Level: 5/255
PWM Level: 10/255
PWM Level: 15/255
PWM Level: 20/255
PWM Level: 25/255
PWM Level: 30/255
PWM Level: 35/255
PWM Level: 40/255
PWM Level: 45/255
PWM Level: 50/255
PWM Level: 55/255
PWM Level: 60/255
PWM Level: 70/255
PWM Level: 80/255
PWM Level: 90/255
PWM Level: 100/255
PWM Level: 125/255
PWM Level: 220/255
PWM Level: 230/255
PWM Level: 240/255
PWM Level: 250/255
PWM Level: 255/255

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Hopback
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Nice work Wight, are you aiming to be the most prolific driver creator on BLF? Smile

Is the 7136 similar to the 7135, just without the internal mosfet? If so, can you spare one of these devices? The only suppliers I can find of 7136 are on Aliexpress, never used them dont seem to like PPal….:(

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Heh. Wink

I’m not really sure how they compare from a technical perspective. Based on the output waveform in post #18 it seems that when implemented with the external FET, the QX7136 behaves pretty differently from the xxx7135. If I recall correctly a 7135 will turn fully on and off during PWM.

When used by itself the QX7136 can be set to between 10mA and 400mA using an external resistor. I have not tried using them that way, this is my first implementation with the QX7136. I don’t see much point in using them that way anyway.

I can probably help you out if you need it. That said, this eBay seller shipped promptly and packaged well, I was happy with the purchase: http://www.ebay.com/itm/370787091970 The listing says that they ship worldwide.

There are other products which are also called 7136, be sure not to become confused when shopping. The HT7136 is definitely NOT the same thing, if a person was in a hurry they could accidentally purchase the wrong thing.

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wight
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OK, I’ve implemented “bypass” on my stripboard. My test setup has a lot of resistance, but it does function properly with a high-drain cell.

In order for the bypass to function, code changes were required. Basically the normal ATtiny pin-output “off” state causes a problem when hooked up to the DRV/gate stuff. Therefore we cannot use the code Werner posted over here (post#61). Instead we must keep that pin in High Impedance mode, what Atmel calls “Tri-state” or “Hi-Z”. When we’re ready to do the bypass we then put the pin in Output High (Source) mode. Table 10-1 in the datasheet shows the register setup necessary.

I’m putting the proof-of-concept code here. Sorry my code sucks so bad, it’s just a proof-of-concept. It’s not intended to provide a usable interface. EDIT: hint – the bypass is only functional in v009.c. Earlier versions are me mucking around with testing levels and things or me figuring out how we needed the pin state setup.

—————-
Side note: I also noticed that the M6 actually uses a bank of 0805’s rather than 1206 sized resistors. In order to have the same power-handling capability you must spend twice as much on resistors, but it should allow more granular setting of current. (0805’s have 0.5W handling but cost the same as the 1206’s which have 1W handling.)

———
EDIT: The next step is to determine dropout voltage, but I think I’ll have to build the real driver for that testing to have any meaning.

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Rufusbduck
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I’m an avid reader of your threads and I’m almost on the verge of beginning to gain an appreciation for what this particular driver can do.

Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?

Scott

wight
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Rufusbduck wrote:
I’m an avid reader of your threads and I’m almost on the verge of beginning to gain an appreciation for what this particular driver can do.
As you may have noticed from my thread-title edit, I’ve gained a little bit more appreciation for this driver myself!

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Mike C
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Thanks for the scope shots. Does anyone have a link to a thread in here somewhere with scope shots for 7135? Also, the QX7136 has pins on both sides, are they the same pin on both sides (making it a 3 pin component) or are they actually different pins (making it a five pin component)?

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Is it correct to assume that you can skip using PWM and use a pot as a sense resistor and thus have output control? (always wanted that Smile )

wight
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djozz wrote:

Is it correct to assume that you can skip using PWM and use a pot as a sense resistor and thus have output control? (always wanted that Smile )

No, at least not with a conventional potentiometer. Two Three things stand in your way: 1. The pot must be able to dissipate enough power (0.05*X.X amps). 2. The pot must be extremely low value, we’re talking about a pot that’s has a sweep like 1 ohm to 0.0025 ohm or something. +3. I think that wiring in a pot as a sense resistor could introduce a lot of extra wiring resistance and things and give unexpected results.

Is your interest simply in having a knob to freely adjust brightness, or are you specifically interested in using a potentiometer in place of a sense resistor? If you just want a brightness knob, I did recently start a little bit of work on that. Our discussion in this short thread about the classic Lambda VaraPower driver led me to start hacking up some code. I posted about it in the STAR firmware thread in a small handful of posts strewn between 670 and 715. Most notably #688, #712, and #715.

I’ve set that aside for the moment, but if all you want is a driver which lets you adjust the brightess freely/continuously with a knob then that will be easy. I’m shooting for a driver with LVP which lets you adjust the brightness with a knob.

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wight
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Mike C wrote:
Thanks for the scope shots. Does anyone have a link to a thread in here somewhere with scope shots for 7135? Also, the QX7136 has pins on both sides, are they the same pin on both sides (making it a 3 pin component) or are they actually different pins (making it a five pin component)?
I don’t have a link to that. Therefore I took a minute to check a single 7135 at an unknown duty cycle (looks like 70% maybe?) and see what it looked like. I was surprised! It mostly doesn’t turn fully off… mostly. It totally ends up all the way off for a brief period during each PWM pulse though, take a look below. This is not how I thought the output looked on these, actually. [Note that the small yellow marker one division above the bottom in the lower left is 0v.]

As to your other question, it’s a 5-pin component. It can drive an LED at low currents on it’s own, without an FET. We don’t use that pin here (Pin ‘LED’). The other pins are DRV, CS, GND, VDD. It’s in the datasheet.

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Thanks for the answer about the problems that come with using a potmeter for setting the sense resistor value.

I tried to read through the lambdalight thread with my limited grasp of electronics, but what spoils for me the use of a pot for varying brightness in that type of driver is that the pot setting is converted into pwm after all.

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wight wrote:
Therefore I took a minute to check a single 7135 at an unknown duty cycle (looks like 70% maybe?) and see what it looked like. I was surprised! It mostly doesn’t turn fully off… mostly. It totally ends up all the way off for a brief period during each PWM pulse though, take a look below. This is not how I thought the output looked on these, actually. [Note that the small yellow marker one division above the bottom in the lower left is 0v.]

As to your other question, it’s a 5-pin component. It can drive an LED at low currents on it’s own, without an FET. We don’t use that pin here (Pin ‘LED’). The other pins are DRV, CS, GND, VDD. It’s in the datasheet.


Thanks for the scope photo! Interesting indeed. It doesn’t shut off fully for very long at all.
wight
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djozz wrote:

Thanks for the answer about the problems that come with using a potmeter for setting the sense resistor value.

I tried to read through the lambdalight thread with my limited grasp of electronics, but what spoils for me the use of a pot for varying brightness in that type of driver is that the pot setting is converted into pwm after all.

You’re welcome. If you want a PWM free output you can probably implement that by feeding the ATtiny’s PWM into an LD-29. IIRC that outputs a smooth constant current at every drive level, but the MCU outputs PWM.

Mike C wrote:
wight wrote:
Therefore I took a minute to check a single 7135 at an unknown duty cycle (looks like 70% maybe?) and see what it looked like. I was surprised! It mostly doesn’t turn fully off… mostly. It totally ends up all the way off for a brief period during each PWM pulse though, take a look below. This is not how I thought the output looked on these, actually. [Note that the small yellow marker one division above the bottom in the lower left is 0v.]

As to your other question, it’s a 5-pin component. It can drive an LED at low currents on it’s own, without an FET. We don’t use that pin here (Pin ‘LED’). The other pins are DRV, CS, GND, VDD. It’s in the datasheet.


Thanks for the scope photo! Interesting indeed. It doesn’t shut off fully for very long at all.
I agree. I’m speculating that the short “full off” is where we get the resonance/buzzing from, but I could be wrong.

Still fine, still on a break. One day I’ll catch up with you folks! previous wight catchup Wink
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