Sliced XHP50.2

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Thom2022
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Sliced XHP50.2

Hey guys,
So I’ve searched and searched until my fingers are stubs from typing into google but to no avail.

Does anyone have a definitive, pictorial answer to what happens when you slice the dome of an XHP50.2.
Sorry to sound like a dick but i don’t want ‘the xpg3 is crap so the 50.2 will be too’ type of answers.
If possible I would like a before and after beam shot with lux readings or at the very least an ‘I did it and X,Y and Z happened’ type response.

I have a 50.2 equipped C8 which is really nice but I would like to eek out a bit more throw and reduce the spill a touch.

If I had a spare or 2 I would do it myself but as I’m in the UK I’m limited to intl sellers which means long lead time and high single item costs.

Thanks guys

Thom.

Just an idiot with a soldering iron.

The_Driver
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Here is the seemingly best way to do it:
http://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1107948#comment-1107948
BobbyMK sliced an XP-L2 (same technology as XHP-50.2) and cut away all the excess phosphor on the outside. This removes the yelllow/green corona that normally occurs when you de-dome these new Cree LEDs.
Slicing has the same effect with most LEDs. You get half the hotspot size and 70-90% more luminance.

Thom2022
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That brilliant. I take it due to being flip chips there’s no bond wires to break on these new style cree emitters

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EasyB
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The_Driver wrote:
Here is the seemingly best way to do it:
http://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1107948#comment-1107948
BobbyMK sliced an XP-L2 (same technology as XHP-50.2) and cut away all the excess phosphor on the outside. This removes the yelllow/green corona that normally occurs when you de-dome these new Cree LEDs.
Slicing has the same effect with most LEDs. You get half the hotspot size and 70-90% more luminance.

I don’t think these new flip chips (XPG3, XPL2) get as good a luminance boost upon dedoming as the old versions. For example in your link a well driven XPL HI or dedomed XPL would get significantly higher than 28.5Kcd in an M1. Same with the XPG3; people all got pretty underwhelming results.
Thom2022
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Well I just bit the bullet and sliced my XHP50.2 and I’m absolutely ecstatic! No green and 196k lux at just over a meter. Not bad for huge die in a small reflector! I did as was done in the posted link and scraped as much of the excess phosphor as I dared (~1mm left surrounding the dies).
Also I thought I would add, the dome on these emitters is completely clear, the yellow appearance I can only assume is a result of the excessive amounts of phosphor covering the whole chip.

The gains may not be as dramatic as with the older gen emitters but gains are still gains. As a novice modder I’m in no position to give advice, but if I can successfully slice one of these with good results then I feel the pros among us should not give up on them.

Just an idiot with a soldering iron.

EasyB
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What light host is it and what did you measure before the slice?

Thom2022
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The host is a convoy C8 with smooth reflector and pre slice measurement was around 92k lux, it’s over 100% gain but I think part of the jump was due to the fact the reflector was a little out of focus before the slice.
I will hopefully upload a picture shortly.

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EasyB
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I suspect there is an error in your measurements. The intensity will just not be that high with this reflector/LED combo.

What lux meter are you using and how did you do the measurement?

Thom2022
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Lux meter is ‘max meter’ branded, cost around £20. I set the meter against a wall and point the light at it and took the measurement after 15-20 seconds. I can’t wait to the 30 second mark as it drops out of turbo at 30 seconds due to massive heat. The host can’t dissipate the heat generated by a DD 50.2 running at ~10A fast enough

Why do the numbers seem wrong to you? .

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FlashMax
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Hi Thom, how about tint change?

Max

Lightbringer
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EasyB wrote:
I don’t think these new flip chips (XPG3, XPL2) get as good a luminance boost upon dedoming as the old versions. For example in your link a well driven XPL HI or dedomed XPL would get significantly higher than 28.5Kcd in an M1. Same with the XPG3; people all got pretty underwhelming results.

Hm? I thought the flip-chips had distributed phosphor, so that dedoming would, well, turn them blue.

??

 

Just got some 1A G2s today for dedoming, but was warned off the G3s.

09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

djozz
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Thom2022 wrote:
Lux meter is ‘max meter’ branded, cost around £20. I set the meter against a wall and point the light at it and took the measurement after 15-20 seconds. I can’t wait to the 30 second mark as it drops out of turbo at 30 seconds due to massive heat. The host can’t dissipate the heat generated by a DD 50.2 running at ~10A fast enough

Why do the numbers seem wrong to you? .


I think the next question is at what distance did you measure the light intensity, with a C8 size reflector you want at least 4 or 5 meters to get anything correct.
EasyB
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Thom2022 wrote:

Why do the numbers seem wrong to you? .

Just from my experience and reading others’ experience I can guess about what an LED will do in a given reflector. ~190Kcd is what some of the best emitters will do (the emitters with the highest luminance, like dedomed XPG2) in a C8. From my experience with the sliced XHP50 I know it has significantly less throw than a dedomed XPG2, partly due to the gaps between the dies. From what I have seen the new style of LEDs from cree (XPL2, XPG3, XHP50.2) have even less throw than the old versions. So this is what makes me suspect your results. But, I haven’t actually seen any measurements for the XHP50.2, so I could be wrong.

What distance are you measuring from and what math do you do to get to the candela number?

Thom2022
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Flash max: the LED is an 80+ CRI 3000k stock. I haven’t noticed a considerable tint shift and i stupidly didn’t take a pre photo for comparison.

Light bringer: I’m not sure what you mean by distributed phosphor. I’m pretty new to flashlights and modding but I like to dive into things headfirst at the deep end with a lead helmet.

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FlashMax
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Thanks Thom, maybe these emitters does not suffer of a noticeable tint shift.

Max

Thom2022
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SORRY EVERYONE I F**KED UP!!!
my readings are NOT kcd they are k lux.
My appologies

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djozz
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A well-driven sliced XHP50.2 (you need two 18650’s in series for this) in a C8 can (educated guess) maybe do 100kcd, probably less.

Thom2022
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djozz wrote:
A well-driven sliced XHP50.2 (you need two 18650’s in series for this) in a C8 can (educated guess) maybe do 100kcd, probably less.

I’m using 2 VTC5’s in series, in direct drive I’m getting ~10A at tail cap.
How do I convert from lux to cd? I just used rapidtables converter and it’s saying that 196k lux is 259kcd.

This is all new to me so I’m probably in need of some educating.

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Tom E
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To convert lux to kcd you need to know the exact distance. For example I use 5 meters (the longer the better), so to compute kcd:

meter reading * distance * distance (distance squared in meters)

If you measure in true lux (typically I use the 10X setting), then for 5 meters multiple by 25 to get cd. kcd is 1,000 cd. We usually quote kcd - no need to add decimal digits - our meters ain't that accurate smile

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Thom2022 wrote:
Light bringer: I’m not sure what you mean by distributed phosphor. I’m pretty new to flashlights and modding but I like to dive into things headfirst at the deep end with a lead helmet.

Regular “old” LEDs would have a phosphor coating right on the chip itself, which is why white LEDs look yellow.

“Remote phosphor” would be a plain blue LED, but the phosphor is off the LED, like screw-base lightbulbs with blue LEDs but yellow-looking plastic “shells” around it that convert blue into multi-spectrum “white” light. On an LED it might be a hollow silicone dome but with the phosphor coating on the inside of the dome. Dunno any that do that, though.

“Distributed phosphor” would be having phosphor powder/flakes/whatever being mixed into the silicone itself and then formed into a dome or coating.

If you look at a G2, you can actually see the chip through the clear dome. The G3 looks like it’s got an orange dome itself on top of the LED.

I don’t have any G3s (only ordered some G2s for the first time), so I’m only going by the pix I can find online, not having an actual chip to eyeball.

G2 vs G3 (pic from TLF):

 

 

Eg, remote phosphor bulb:

09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

Thom2022
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Lightbringer wrote:
Thom2022 wrote:
Light bringer: I’m not sure what you mean by distributed phosphor. I’m pretty new to flashlights and modding but I like to dive into things headfirst at the deep end with a lead helmet.

Regular “old” LEDs would have a phosphor coating right on the chip itself, which is why white LEDs look yellow.

“Remote phosphor” would be a plain blue LED, but the phosphor is off the LED, like screw-base lightbulbs with blue LEDs but yellow-looking plastic “shells” around it that convert blue into multi-spectrum “white” light. On an LED it might be a hollow silicone dome but with the phosphor coating on the inside of the dome. Dunno any that do that, though.

“Distributed phosphor” would be having phosphor powder/flakes/whatever being mixed into the silicone itself and then formed into a dome or coating.

If you look at a G2, you can actually see the chip through the clear dome. The G3 looks like it’s got an orange dome itself on top of the LED.

I don’t have any G3s (only ordered some G2s for the first time), so I’m only going by the pix I can find online, not having an actual chip to eyeball.

G2 vs G3 (pic from TLF):

 

 

Eg, remote phosphor bulb:

!http://www.lamptech.co.uk/Images/LED%20Lamps/LEDi%20230-12K58RP830-B22d%...!


Ahhh, interesting stuff! I can currently only speak for the 50.2 but the dimes is definitely clear. The bits I sliced off are definitely 100% clear. As said I think the ‘yellow dome’ effect is caused by the fact that the entire visible surface of the LED is coated. I have a few G3’s on the way for experimenting. I will let you know my finding.
I will also go away and take some more readings at greater distances to give more accuracy and also take some readings for my M2 and TN4A as comparison.

Just an idiot with a soldering iron.

scianiac
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I’ve been slicing and dicing a number of these new cree LEDs and so far am reasonably liking the results, unfortunately not the same throw as certain other older LEDs but for the lumens pretty respectable. For a comparison, all in a Jaxman Z1, XP-L2 ~190kcd, XP-G3 ~200kcd, XHP-50.2 ~190kcd. Although compared to the 400+kcd the SoH does in the same host they are not that impressive.

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Lightbringer
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Thom2022 wrote:
Ahhh, interesting stuff! I can currently only speak for the 50.2 but the dimes is definitely clear. The bits I sliced off are definitely 100% clear. As said I think the ‘yellow dome’ effect is caused by the fact that the entire visible surface of the LED is coated. I have a few G3’s on the way for experimenting. I will let you know my finding.

Could be the manufacturing process, then.

Old way, apply phosphor, then mount the completed chip on the substrate.

New way, mount the chip inverted, spraypaint the phosphor after.

Just guessing…

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tekwyzrd
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Lightbringer wrote:
Thom2022 wrote:
Ahhh, interesting stuff! I can currently only speak for the 50.2 but the dimes is definitely clear. The bits I sliced off are definitely 100% clear. As said I think the ‘yellow dome’ effect is caused by the fact that the entire visible surface of the LED is coated. I have a few G3’s on the way for experimenting. I will let you know my finding.

Could be the manufacturing process, then.

Old way, apply phosphor, then mount the completed chip on the substrate.

New way, mount the chip inverted, spraypaint the phosphor after.

Just guessing…

That’s the way it looks to me. Phosphor after assembly would probably result in a significant reduction in rejects.

Rufusbduck
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Nice work. Please let us know your results with the xpg-3’s and if you can scrape around the die on those as well.

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XP-G3 close shave to about .005’‘ silicone remaining.

Yes you can scrape the edges..

And both XP-G3 L2 50.2 and soon to be 70.2 are crap for throw IMHO! And they can’t be de-domed with out pulling the phosphorus off, I have tried!!

But you can de-dome the old XHP70-50 and 35’s!

KB1428 “Live Life WOT”

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I can confirm that all of the new Cree emitters have a clear some, and the yellow appearance is just because the phosphor covers the whole chip. I have XP-G3, XP-L2, and XHP50.2, with XHP70.2 on the way. I thought they were distributed phosphor as well until I had them in hand. Looking at any of them from the side the dome is crystal clear.

I like the new emitters, better efficiency. Never cared much about throw though, and I like warm tints so the color change in the beam is less pronounced.

Thom2022
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Hey guys so here’s some proper, measured and error corrected tests of the following.
Convoy C8, smooth reflector, sliced and scraped xhp50.2 80+CRI 3000k, direct drive, VTC5’s @ 3.98v(I stupidly forgot to charge them)
Convoy M2, orange peel reflector, sliced XM-L2 ?? 4C, direct drive, fresh VTC5
A bone stock TN4A XPL Hi NW. Fresh eneloops.

Some testing info:
Tests were done at 3 meters.
My lux meter states that under 100k lux it’s accurate +/-4%.
I assumed that it over read by 4% so corrected as follows.
(Reading / 104) X 100

The results;
C8: 82890cd
M1: 17982cd
TN4A: 54684cd

I feel confident in this correction as the TN4A spec states 52340cd and I measured and calculated 54684cd
Without correction the TN4A result was 56880cd.

My XPG3’s have been shipped. When they arrive I will add their results into here aswell and make sure I get some good comparison shots.

Anyway I hope this comparison proves useful to someone.

Just an idiot with a soldering iron.

EasyB
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Nice result with the C8. Thanks for the measurement.

saabluster
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Just some personal notes I made testing these last year. My measurements are simple relative measurements.

Surface brightness comparison
XPG-2 S3 8.6
XPG-3 S5 7.1

Corrected surface brightness (like for like binning). Shows effect of differing phosphor application.
XPG-2 9.8
XPG-3 7.1 = 38% decrease in surface brightness with dome on.

All dedomed
XPG-3 modded with the one chip subdivided into three distinct sections.
Stock shaved dome 3.3 – 57% dec over XPG2
Shaved plus thin silicone coating 4 – 48% dec over XPG2
Transplanted XML phosphor 4.7 -39% dec over XPG2
XPG-2 S4 7.7

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Same here, big intensity decrease by shaving my XP-G3 dome.

Hey, how are you? :)

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