What 18650 for portable vacuum

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jp9mm
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What 18650 for portable vacuum

I have this one https://www.amazon.com/BLACK-DECKER-BDH2020FL-Lithium-Brush/dp/B00CCYLBZ0/ Looks like it has 18650s in a custom pack, was thinking either the samsung 30q or 35e I'd rather have the higher capacity if possible

Edited by: jp9mm on 09/27/2020 - 23:51
Robin Dobbie
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I doubt some 35es wouldn’t work, but what’s in there now? Are you just wanting a second pack?

jp9mm
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Robin Dobbie wrote:
I doubt some 35es wouldn’t work, but what’s in there now? Are you just wanting a second pack?

They are soldered and i can’t see the labels ATM.
They only last 2 minutes now but wanted to keep it working long as possible

Lightbringer
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Are you “theHac” there? LOL Same problem described…

30Qs should work, especially if you can snag some with the tabs already attached.

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jp9mm
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Lightbringer wrote:
Are you “theHac” there? LOL Same problem described…

30Qs should work, especially if you can snag some with the tabs already attached.

Nope, link? what did they buy? I figured the Q would work, but rather have the higher capacity if there is no need for higher discharge

Are these battery terminals reusable? or do i have to buy those strips of metal and solder them on?

Lightbringer
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Probably spot-welded on, so they ain’t coming off in one clean piece.

I hated soldering to NiCd cells way back when, and I wouldn’t try it on Li cells.

‘Though ax Barkuti about low-temp solder, as he might be able to walk you through it.

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Robin Dobbie
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I think super-quick high-temp might be the way to go. You just get in there quick and don’t give the whole cell time to get hot. https://youtu.be/dgINXRxpefk?t=377

Lightbringer
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Definitely. I always hit it with a thermal sledgehammer. Temperature cranked up as high as it can go, big chisel-tip, blob of already-molten solder on the tip for better thermal contact and no need to waste time melting solder paste or anything, and bam!, get in there, melt what you have to, and get out just as fast.

But low-temp solder (eutectic vs 60/40, or different composition lower-MP solder) means it doesn’t have to get as hot to do its job.

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WTF
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There are now cheap spot welders that can be powered off a car battery or other 12V source.

They seem to get good reviews.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000436631776.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0...

Robin Dobbie
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I remember seeing this video a while back. Might try it since we have a riding mower with the right sized battery. Super simple if you have the correct current. Pretty much just need a solenoid, switch, and some copper wire and pipe.

jp9mm
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Thanks for advice. Would using these battery holders be a better solution?
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07Q13T3RH/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_3?smi...

Robin Dobbie
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I would imagine the wire(replaceable) and springs(not as easily replaceable) would limit current in a not insignificant way.

Pip
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Any way to adapt it to use power tool batteries? That’s what I did with my dyson. 18v power tools are usually 5 cell. I had to get 6 cell for the dyson but 5 cell are more common anyway.

I bought a 3d printed adapter on amazon, pulled the cells and circuit board out of the original battery and ran the wires through the battery shell.

djmcconn
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Pip. That’s very cool and a great idea. Thanks

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I did surgery on my Dibea F6 (great old model vacuum you can’t find any more) this afternoon. I used that stick cordless for three years- about 3 times a week. It originally ran over 25 minutes when new but slowly came down to about a 3-4 minute run-time lately.

So I grabbed some Samsung 25S batteries from 18650battery.com last month and finally rolled up my sleeves and disassembled the old pack. Not sure what was in it (soft, blue wrap marked “2200 mAh” among other things- looks like a “knocky-offy” of some kind). But it seemed to run well for years, so I’m testing these old 18650s now. And thankfully, the new pack tested good about 3 hours ago- and is on the charger now. I am hoping to find one bad battery from the old pack and then reuse the rest in smaller lights going forward.

As these cordless vacs run hard and drain deep (at least when I use them Big Smile ), I am happy with the three years of service I did get out of them. But no battery packs for this vac were available (… ever, I looked for years) so I knew it was going to come a time when these guys would be giving up the ghost and so it was time to hit the bench with a few beers today and gittt’er done.

And, as BMS systems typically are fixed capacity… I figured these new high current 25S’s with 2500mAhs would go years longer than the originals as they will never get to 4.2V and are undoubtedly better batteries too. The idea was to get a good HIGH current rated battery with JUST over the old mAh rating of the old batteries. And, as I guessed (got lucky) the old ones were indeed 2200mAhs. So guessing these will never charge over 4.1V or so and give me at least another three years of “stick” vacuum service if not more.

I enjoy these projects when the wife is binging on Netflix (always chick-flicks, uhg!). And when the weather sux, and I have a Sunday otherwise uninterrupted- the three hours went without any hiccups. I agree soldering these batteries is a careful process I would NOT attempt without the right tools and experience. But given everything is carefully handled (not too many beers!), I feel with good tools and a fast spot solder- one is fairly safe doing this kind of work.

I removed (and straightened back out) the original conductive spot welded straps (*razor’ed off by tapping an exacto knife with a small hammer- placing the blade behind/between the spot welds). I use a better solder station with eye protection, correct tip, and hold the old spot weld tabs in place at 800 degrees for 12 seconds, then drop the solder while holding the old tabs in place with a dental pick after lifting the solder tip. This makes a super tight solder joint.

I’ll update with run-time and the old battery test results. Beer

ZappaMan

Zappaman
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Update on the OLD vacuum batteries (above) Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up

I tested three of the six old pulls (marked 2200mAhs) overnight in my ZanFlare 4 bay tester.

#1- 2500 mAhs
#2- 2440 mAhs
#3- 2000 mAhs

I wasn’t expecting ANY of them to hit their marked 2200mAhs, but I did expect a dog or two from the lot of six. The other three are testing now and I’ll update later when they are done.

But not too bad for what will be some higher drain batteries I can use in my “pocket-rocket” 18650 lights (#1 and 2 above). Big Smile

ZappaMan

Robin Dobbie
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The problem with the Zanflare is it only presents a 500mA load to each cell. You already know under a high-drain load they just don’t have the staying power you want. A pocket rocket isn’t going to be any easier on them. The only purpose cells like that serve, in my opinion, is if you have enough of them that are similar enough that they can be put in parallel for use in a powerbank or something that would only draw close to 0.5A per cell, or even less. Only the best cells go in the pocket rockets. But that’s just like, my opinion, man.

So something like this is about perfect because for 10w charging, that’s about a half Amp per cell when I use 6 of them.

Zappaman
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Welp…

Given the first three tested also hit about 50ir, and came from a vacuum pack (which HAS to have high drain to start with), I think the cells that test good will deliver plenty of current to crank-up about 1/2 my lights and deliver around 8-10 amps fine. So I think my IF25a, SP32 V2, C8G, etc. can use these ok as they won’t be pulling a lot of current even when on turbo.

Like I said, if anything they’ll make good yard light or back-up cells with the lower capacity too. But time will tell after I A/B test them with some Q30s.

Hey, I LIKE that power bank you have there- might have to look into that as an option too Thumbs Up

ZappaMan

Robin Dobbie
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Without testing there’s no way to know. We know that vac is reviewed to have 15 minutes of battery life, you were only getting 2. I would think that’d be a good indication they’re about done with high-drain apps.

In your thread about your IF25A someone mentioned it draws well over 10A on turbo. “Turbo ~13+ Amps”

Yeah these banks were a tad under $6, now they’re north of $8, but still not a bad option if you want quick, solderless swapping of 18650s. By quick I mean, they do have to be balanced, and the housing isn’t exactly made to come apart after you snap it together the first time. I’ve intentionally broken all but 4 clips, but I’ll probably break the remainder and resort to tape as a hinge and latch. Or make something fancy(or ghetto, probably ghetto) out of 5mm plywood.

Zappaman
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Your point is well taken. And thanks for the tips on the powerbank too) Thumbs Up

But I would question the one bad battery scenario which as we know can shut down a pack that’s almost new. I’d like to know more about late life current capacity drop in general too. I KNOW it goes down, but by how much over time? I’m sure “cycle” hours won’t hold the same effect as over-all age (too). I’m sure they BOTH factor into that equation.

I have pulled a few tool/laptop packs apart the last few years and most (good) batteries I’ve gotten out have worked fine for about anything but long run-time. It helps most of my lights also have turbo throttling after a minute or two anyway Wink

The 17 year old Sony I tested last night hit 2100mAhs and went back into the wife’s SD-02 which stays parked by her bed and gets used once a week. I charge it about every 4 months or so and it usually has over 4Vs. And it’s been in the light the last three years and for the job- it works fine.

ZappaMan

Robin Dobbie
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Well definitely A/B test with with 30Qs and maybe even set up a camera with a tripod. Did you ever set up something for manual controls? That would be ideal.

Quote:
I’d like to know more about late life current capacity drop in general too. I KNOW it goes down, but by how much over time?

The only way to know is to test it directly at the current level(s) you’re interested in.

This is a an inexpensive way to do it:

Medium price way to do it:

CBA IV – Computerized Battery Analyzer

At almost 200 buckaroos I don’t see myself doing it, but it’s what a lot of reviewers use.

But yeah, a mAh rating is useless if you don’t know the test current, or if the test current is lower than anything you’d ever use it in.

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Zappaman wrote:
Update on the OLD vacuum batteries (above) Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up

I tested three of the six old pulls (marked 2200mAhs) overnight in my ZanFlare 4 bay tester.

#1- 2500 mAhs
#2- 2440 mAhs
#3- 2000 mAhs

I wasn’t expecting ANY of them to hit their marked 2200mAhs, but I did expect a dog or two from the lot of six. The other three are testing now and I’ll update later when they are done.

But not too bad for what will be some higher drain batteries I can use in my “pocket-rocket” 18650 lights (#1 and 2 above). Big Smile

Last three tested:

  1. 2470
  2. 2465
  3. 2535

I’ll have to compare to newer high drain batteries now. But #3 battery was bringing the pack down compared to the other five batteries which tested great… well over their labeled “2200mAh”.

ZappaMan

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I would watch for a cell that may exhibit high self discharge. I once had a Lenovo 9 cell pack fail due to one cell having this issue. In that case, it drained all cells in parallel, too. Charge them all up at a low cutrent and let’m sit for a week before comparing voltage and optionally capacity.

Did you measure OCV of each cell upon removal? Another scenario was that the capacity imbalance over time resulted in that one Tell never fully charging and being constantly over discharged.

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On the original topic…

The NEW Samsung 25S batteries ran over 15 minutes at first use yesterday. But I didn’t run it to it’s cut-off like I used to. I didn’t need it for more time and I NOW won’t be using it on carpet any more (where I used to run it till it stopped). It never really worked well on carpet anyway, but it is super on our hard floors (2/3rds the house) and a “one hand” machine that gets in lots of places without having to move much around. I am HAPPY to have the “transplant” go so well after-all!

The stick vac is starting up faster and running at a slightly higher RPM than it was before the change-out. Although a Q30 probably would have given me more run time, I didn’t want to take a chance on not having ample current and these Samsungs are some of the top tested 18650s for current here… and so they are my confirmed suggestion!

On the old battery side-project:

Well yah, who knows what the BMS was up to for a few years there? But I’m guessing it stopped at some low voltage setting so perhaps the pack wasn’t charging to full, but who knows at this point.

But… five of the six batteries charged up WELL past their stamped 2200mAh rating (with one only hitting 2000mAhs).

I haven’t tested them next to a Q30 yet, but this morning I put the charged batteries back in the charger to test their resting voltage overnight.

4 had 4.16V
1 had 4.17V
1 (the bad battery charging just to 2kmAhs) was at 4.14V

I have two identical SC31 Pros lights I will load up: one with a topped off 30Q and the other with one of these old batteries. I’ll then go out tonight and hit turbo on both simultaneously and compare.

I’ll run them a while too and check for battery heat while I’m at it. This will be the tail-tell whether these will hold some current or have massive voltage drop. I expect they will be somewhere in the middle but I’ll see and report back.

ZappaMan