Reducing material. It’s basically grinding more away on that big bevel that is above the edge bevel. Narrower boats cut through water faster, knives do the same thing. The tradeoff is less strength to resist ham fisted operators. Once you start factoring in the resistance of the particular steel to fracturing or getting a rolled edge is where modern super steels really shine. They can handle the thinner cross sections better because of their much improved strength and toughness (not always both) compared to steels of 40 years ago.
Thanks. Seems like a challenging and rewarding hobby on many levels.
Someday, treat us to a build thread for one of your knives. There are probably a lot of amateurs (and a few serious knife hobbyists) like me here that would find it very interesting.
I would be in on a Ti version. Much preferred if you could swing that. If not, G10 is cool too.
PM me if this goes down. Thanks!
I’d be interested for the full Ti version as well. :heart_eyes:
@Kloepper Knife Works, thank you for your kind inputs and in helping to educating us. Your amazing craftsmanship could never be misconstrued as spam amongst these pages. :bigsmile: Most of us here arent full fledged blade affectionados, although we’re getting there. There are plenty of reviews of the MG DAMM and none seem to be even the slightest bit negative. The MG Blitzwing “Lightning” seems to be about the same length, made of the same materials and is more appealing to me. What is your expert opinion?
@ImA4Wheelr, thanks for your efforts. I probably need one of these knives about as much as I need another flashlight. lol. Prices drop quickly on aliexpress and more than a few resellers seem to carry several MG knives. Maybe one of them would be willing to provide a discount code ala simon style (of convoy flashlight) to increase their sales. I hear you about avoiding reshipping and the liability behind it. I wouldn’t put you through that one buddy. Im saturated in the X60 GB at the moment so I’ll probably wait and see how this thread progresses. If anything, I think we’re all learning something new here.
If there are any notable differences I’d say that the steel insert on the lockbar of the Damm will make it less prone to sticking, and longer wearing than the direct blade to titanium contact of the Blitzwing. The Damm also appears to have a better designed blade on the back end. The prongs on the Blitzwing would be potential points of failure, especially given the very small radii they have to use on the inside corners.
In general I think I’d prefer D2 with a good heat treat (if they indeed do a good heat treat) over N690, however for anyone using it in humid/wet conditions the N690’s significantly better corrosion resistance will be a very attractive quality. Aesthetically I like the Damm better, but that means very little. The Blitzwing looks like it would be more comfortable in the hand, and probably provide a more secure grip with the contours on the side opposite the spine on the handle. Neither is what I would call sculpted for comfort, though few companies really do a good job of that with folders so it’s hard to get too upset.
I’d probably prefer to try out the Damm even though it’s not the “better” steel for most of my uses, mainly because it looks like more thought was put into its design.
I like the DAMM knife but I like the Blitzwing better:
I like to keep my Aliexpress knock off knife purchases under $40 but this one is tempting.
I seriously doubt if it’s really D2 steel, I think for the most part all of these knock offs are probably 440, and I think a lot of the sellers use photos of the actual original knife (they buy one to copy and use it for the photos)
I’ve bought quite a few knock offs on Aliexpress and most of them actually seem to be made quite well. They are tempting but I’m trying to resist buying too many more, for the same price I’d rather have one real brand name knife than 5 fakes from China. I do like the Sanremu and Ganzo knives they’re very good and are their own brand.
I’m going to start selling off some knives this year to buy more flashlights!
+1
Amazing and absolutely gorgeous handmade guitar and knives. I especially like the Westin knife.
With 14 guitars and over 100 knives I think I have a “problem” with Guitars and knives! (as well as flashlights!)
I eventually want to start making knives, not to sell but only as a hobby. I enjoy watching the many knife making tutorials on you tube, especially Gavko Knives who I’ve been following for a few years. I’ve designed some patterns and already have the infamous 1x30” HFT belt grinder and if the hobby takes off I’ll eventually be considering a 2x72”
I’m sure eventually you will be “manufacturing” some custom flashlights. I’d really like to see someone on here with a lathe make custom flashlight bodies. Hint!
Damm, this thread got me started looking at knives on Aliexpress again! —Must Resist— —Think Flashlights, Flashlights, Flashlights!—
At the price point and with the few reviews of their knives being quite positive, I’d be surprised if they lie about their steel. D2 is neither particularly expensive nor hard to get a hold of, at least compared to things like CPM steels(S30V, S35VN, S90V, S110V). And Kizer, another Chinese knife company making some knives for a similar price, has proven itself to me. I don’t have much doubt after using my Kizer for 6 months or so that they likely did use the CPM S35VN that they say they did. What they could have done, but didn’t, was take it a couple Rc points higher to improve the edge retention. (edge retention has still been respectable)
Which brings me to the bigger shot in the dark. The quality of their heat treating. There’s a vast difference in performance between a well and a poorly hardened blade. If it turns out that they aren’t doing a great job heat treating it then the prongs I mentioned earlier become an even bigger liability. There’s the claimed 2 point spread in the Rc spec for both knives, if they hit the target they claim, they should be pretty comparable to other good companies target hardness and ranges (some reputable companies even spec 3 or 4 point spreads, 3 is kind of OK, 4 is just sloppy). Two important considerations are whether they have weird problems like excessive grain growth (usually a time and temp problem) or if they accidentally overheat the edges when doing the initial sharpening. Neither would show up in a hardness test, but both would greatly degrade the performance of the knife.
Anyone who really wants to know a lot about knives needs to visit bladeforums. It’s a mountain of information, and there are guys there who know more about knives than I could ever dream of knowing.
^ Bladeforums is a great site and the members there seem very helpful. I've gone there a lot lately and may eventually join just to say thank yous when someone gives helpful info. We appreciate you KKW taking the time to answer all the questions we are throwing at you. Questions most of us would not feel comfortable asking on Bladeforums.
Another question if you feel like answering KKW. If you bought a Damm and found the heat treatment lacking, would you consider re heat treating it yourself? I imagine a small amount of surface material must be lost in each heat treatment. Knix this question. I've been googling and see that heat treating stainless steels like N690 is a pretty specialized process and not done by many at home.
That Blitzwing (the "t" is after the "z" in some listings) that Flash brought up looks so good. I hope they address the frame lock wear issue in revision. The blade looks so good that I would be willing to accept some performance issues in exchange.
If they are taking the time to heat treat properly, it would seem that MG would benefit greatly from proving it with indepentent 3rd party testing of their blades or better yet of their heat treating process. I guess if they did this, their blades would be much more expensive.
The light, go to the light beam0. 
EDIT: FlashPilot,
Thanks for the idea on the discount code. It would be a good oportunity for a vendor to create awareness and goodwill. If no one decides to try to run a MG GB, I'll approach some vendors about that some point after the holiday. Maybe things are going more slowly around here.
For what it's worth. I think you are doing a great job on that X6 GB. I was really impressed with the size of discount you were able to secure. If I wasn't at a point where I want to build some of my own monster lights from scratch, I would have jumped on board on that GB.
Can someone tell me are the MG Blitzwing and DAMM on Aliexpress fake knock offs, or is it a Chinese brand it’s own??
I see the MG website has a Counterfeit Strider folder (with Strider logo) and other fake knives too (A fake Brend M2 they’re calling “Brendan” M2 - in the photo they cover the name with the sheath!) (Knock off Fallkniven F1 dubbed “Sweden FK”) I don’t even see the Blitzwing or Damm on their site (Maybe I’m looking at the wrong MG Knives site?)
There doesn’t seem to be much information on the maker of these two knives on the web, a quick web search on the Blitzwing and DAMM knives only turn up their listings on Ali & ebay.
Kizer appears to be an reputable company. They have a booth at the SHOT show. They have a lifetime warranty. They have a US dealer network. Their carried at Blade HQ. Looking at their website they do have some beautiful designs and appear to be very high quality (and I have no doubt that they are). HOWEVER, some of their knives appear to be an EXACT copy of a design from US custom knifemaker Tim Britton Hand Made Knives that are in the $450-$475 range. There has been some discussion about it on Bladeforums.
Here’s a statement from Tim Britton about the Chinese copies of his design:
- “Many of us have been troubled by the problem of Chinese rip-offs. I fought this and gave it my best shot only to hear that the only viable alternative would be for me to hire a Chinese attorney and to file suit in a Chinese court of law. Copyrights and patents are of value only if you are willing to spend a lot of money defending them. I have talked at length with ICE and with two US Senators with minimal results. I will continue to focus on what I do best, fishing and making knives.
Thank you for your interest and for your continued support.
Best Regards, Tim Britton” *
I’ve seen this before with the Chinese copying, they can get away with it even if there is a copyright/patent/trademark etc. If the company does not have the financial resources to fight a very expensive infringement legal battle.
I can’t afford a $450 knife that’s why I’ve bought some of the fakes in the past without giving it a lot of thought. But now I feel bad to support companies who are doing this backhanded counterfeiting that hurts the companies who make the real products.
I know China is now producing much better quality knives than in the past, I have quite a few, however for the outright fakes I’m skeptical of the blade steel always being as advertised, due being blatant fakes they lose all credibility. As opposed to brands like Ganzo & Sanremu (who make some of the import knives for Spyderco and other well known brands)
You would want to wrap the blades in high temp stainless foil, or do it in a vacuum furnace to prevent decarburization (lost carbon in the steels surface, it would have to be removed from a hardened blade) if heat treated a second time. Probably not something I would do unless I just wanted to verify that the correct heat treating process produced the expected results so that we could be confident that they’re using what they say they are.
I’ve read a lot of the back story on the Tim Britton saga. So far Kizer has been the only side to present any documentation in that whole deal. I’m not sure what to believe, but it’s not too hard to believe that they really were making the knife that he then tweaked and finished off and he’s pissed because now the world knows about it. It’s also not too big of a stretch to imagine a Chinese company cloning an American product. Bad people exist all over the world.
Good question beam0. I wondered that myself about the Damm.
Thanks KKW. I googled a bit and learned that heat treating stainless steels is a pretty specialized process that most people outsource. I edited my post, but too late before you responded. So we really are reliant on the manufacturer for a knife like the Damm to do the heat treatment and tempering right.
I'm playing with the idea of replacing the blades in a couple of my favorite cheap folders with hand made carbon steel. I have most of the tools needed to cut and shape (radial arm cut-off saw, table and hand grinders, band saw, band sanders, drill press, various hammer and a very large (I can't even lift it up) flat hunk of steel for flattening, etc.). I could use oxy/acetylene to heat treat a small blade. Doubt I would do a good job, but it would be fun to try. Do you have a favorite budget high carbon steel for making your blades when sharpness and abrasion resistance are you primary desired traits?
You could always use a place like Peters Heat Treating. They’ll do 1 piece orders (although it costs more than a few other places until you get to about 10), and I have complete faith in them, they’re who does my blades. 
I have done heat treating on a variety of steels at the local community college using their furnace. I made friends with a couple of teachers in machine tool while I was in manufacturing engineering so they were always fine with me wandering in and using equipment as long as I let them know what I was working on. Since I’m listed as an adjunct teacher thanks to the occasional substitute teacher work, I still have access when I need it. 2 furnaces and dozens of lathes, mills, grinders, a wire EDM. Nice when I need precision that my lathe can’t deliver.
I and most of the guys at Bladeforums would suggest you start with 1080 or 1095. There are anti-scale compounds you can apply to the blade, if you plan to use your torch, that will help prevent decarburization. Read, read, read. You can drastically reduce your efforts and improve your results with a week or two of trolling BF.
The problem if you replace the blade is that now it will far outlive the pivot and stop pin, if you have them disassembled that far, try to replace those with harder/better fitting versions.
Thanks again KKW. Appreciate your input. Was hoping using a reducing flame (oxygen starved) would be good enough to reduce decarburization.
I'll do that. I've been researching the topic off and on for a few years now, but I keep chickening out or getting distracted by other interests/life demands.
Once again. Thank you for responding to all my newbie type questions. Given your skills in other areas, I'm really looking forward to seeing what you do with flashlights.
Thanks to everyone for all the great commentary. I never heard of Kizer Cutlery until now. The quick educational read here along with some additional research seems to prove their consistency, quality and value. What a great number of beautiful and interesting models they offer as well. All the discussion here about metals and all the ways the manufacturing process can go wrong does make me pause and think twice. After all, Id want a knife priced 3-4 times what I pay for an Enlan EL-01 to be a quantum leap forward in every way. From a utilitarian, quality of materials and manufacturing standpoint of view, that point can be hotly debated. When it comes to personal choices in aesthetics, all bets are off. Each of us has an emotional attachment to our favorites, and some of those have likely never cut anything more than hair off a persons arm. :bigsmile:
In considering buying a knife in the $75+ range, it would need to possess all the merits of my EDC and surpass it. In considering why my EDC is an Enlan EL-01, there are many hits beyond its sub $20 price. No need to post a pic here, right guys? Onward…
- it still easily holds its own against all knives in its price range, quality and size.
- aesthetics score deep into the +95 percentile range for most people who have viewed pics, examined or used one.
- after 3 years EDC, its my old friend. No other knife handles as well for me. I know all of its nuances as well as my own hand. Functionality/ergonomics/methods of deployment and imbedded safety features means that I have never cut myself while working behind the blade (hastily or otherwise). In front of the blade, a few times perhaps.
- beyond fine carving tasks (which I accomplish with a dremel or exacto kit most of the time) the knife has done everything I have ever asked of it with 100% effectiveness. No, I dont baton and likely would never need to… and I have been known to carry a small hatchet (which I used to carve a block of cheese in a pinch) Yeah, it sucked but it worked!
- if I lose or gift it, its easily and economically replaced. Im probably on my 12th or 15th by now.
- after carrying several other folders, this is the one I always come back to. For me, its weight, size and folded length are on the very cusp of what is acceptable and manageable before it becomes a hindrance. If Im going to carry, it might as well be on the larger side since the smaller varieties have often been too small for the task. Also, I have often noted that smaller blades can prove more dangerous in handling.
- if Im going to carry a knife (along with all the other things I normally carry each day), it only joins me if I anticipate a fair chance of needing to use it. Carrying something I wont use becomes a hindrance, regardless of its size. (this includes pocket change).
- I do a great deal of bicycle riding at night in semi-remote locations. The EL-01 always accompanies me. All the things I already mentioned come to play here, but with the addition of a silent deployment if I feel threatened… a no-brainer since I know it so well. Its only been opened once for that latter reason and the other person never knew it. I was more than pleased to return it to my pocket in the same manner. Any other knife might not have had the same result, nor would it have inspired the level of confidence I have in my EDC.
- Ive packed mine full of grime and mud more than a few times and washed it in a stream. No need to disassemble or relube, or worry about bearings becoming damaged, retaining water or needing to be maintained. If it were an MG or similar, I would look for other methods of cutting before risking getting my new prize that dirty… so Id probably still carry my EL-01 and have to pack 2 knives and more than twice the weight. Joking perhaps, but perhaps not.
As we all know, there are many ways to consider things… and those are only my few pennies worth. But man, this one is so damn hard to resist…
Alas, I recon it could never replace my EDC for several of the reasons I just mentioned. I’ll probably have to give it some more thought.
You’re welcome. I just dont know if I can talk myself into one of these great knives again, since I seemed to have just talked myself out of one. Im usually decisive in all of my buying decisions.
Thanks for your compliments. The X60 is truly a great bargain for the price, but not with the imbalanced cell recharging problems that were recently discovered among all acebeam lights that recharge internally. It will hopefully be resolved shortly.
Ive seen your custom lights scaring the hell out of astronauts in the ISS. Lets not go there… :bigsmile: Thanks for helping to propel the technology forward. I love reading your posts.
FlashPilot wrote:
. . . All the discussion here about metals and all the ways the manufacturing process can go wrong does make me pause and think twice. After all, Id want a knife priced 3-4 times what I pay for an Enlan EL-01 to be a quantum leap forward in every way.. . .
I'm feeling the same. Members electricjelly and Kloepper Knife Works have opened my eyes a bit. Either of the 2 knives mentioned here might be worth it to me if I had some assurance of the authenticity of the claimed metal and of proper heat sinking. I also find myself wanting the razor sharpness and abrasion resistance that high carbon steel can offer. More maintenance and less flexibility (toughness) being the primary trade off. I'm starting to think I will be restricting my stainless steel knives to the Chinese knives I already possess.
The criteria you listed in Post 37 sounds real good to me.