How to make the best single lens zoomie... (alternate title? we finally have a complete math model)

heres why this knowledge is SO important?

because, we are going to CALCULATE the best “pre-collimator” lens, properly and perfectly chosen? to use with the ABSOLUTE best possible lens, that we can POSSIBLY use? as the focusing lens.

we are going to be able? to design, and then build? the perfect beast.

no other thrower, anywhere… from any company ever? is going to be able to beat it.

WE are all going to have this. Not any other flashlight site. Not a few fringe “engineering companies” that charge insane money for their kept-secret knowledge.

WE are all going to be able to have this? and know exactly how to build it and replicate it and tune it? a bunch of us… not some guy named “vinz” who isnt telling us “exactly how” to do it, because it affects his high standing reputation and bottom line as a builder.

“we” are going to then be “top dog”… “we” will know how to make the absolute highest meter-shocking thrower zoomie possible to make.

we’re picking this lock open… its going to be “our” greatest achievement… “we” are all going to be able to BUILD the best thrower in the world, and no one else is going to be able to touch it.

i built a precollimated light, that worked? twice… and only long and tedious “hand tuning” 4 lenses accomplished it… now i am “this close” to knowing exactly “why”.

we should be able to CALCULATE the exact best pre-collimator to place UNDER any given lens… likewise? given any best pre-collimator lens? we should be able to calculate the OPTIMUM forward focusing lens to put in front of it.

do you see my point of getting this all correct? what it leads to?

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I guess we can agree to disagree on this point.
endquote

shrugs its a free world.

but i know this… edmunds optics engineers? thought this was SO important? they published a paper explaining it. not ONCE did “luminous intensity” so much as come up once.

all that mattered? was knowing the angle of the source… and how to calculate the angle of acceptance of the lens… “nothing” else entered into the calculations…

nothing else. you match or exceed those critical angles? thats all there is to it. they give two strategies of doing this? but, its the same basic design approach they use.

luminous intensity? is simply how many “moonbats” you later push thru the best chosen lens… its obvious you then want as many moonbats as you can MAKE, and all the regular questions of “best practice” come into play.

matching those angles or beating them? nothing else exists… nothing.

heres a perfect analogy?

a high-revving “short piston throw” engine? creates a LOT of horsepower? simply because it revs so high and so fast…

a TORQUE-y engine? with LONG throw piston? does not rev nearly as high, if it tried to? it explodes… BUT, the torque-y engine? CAN be mated with a tranny and rear end, that favors high speed, but accelerates a little soft…

the same torque-y engine could also be mated with a beefy “hauling transmission” and rear end… which will carry a heavy load. like a large hauling TRUCK, or, even a bulldozer.

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when building big fast motors? which should you choose to build for? they have a saying… “build for torque… then the horsepower will just show up and be there”

this analogy applies here…

you nail your emission angle of your source? you match or exceed that critical angle with your lens? everything else falls into place. THEN you can pack all the luminous intensity into that critical angle, that you can… and the lens will collect all of it, and “throw” it as wide close in floody, or, as long of a pencil thrower as you LIKE…

but, its the only design consideration that means anything.

you nail your angle of emission? you meet or beat that angle of acceptance in the lens? THEN you can do whatever you want to increase the luminosity… then it will ALL go thru the lens…

as a design criteria? it makes perfect logical sense… thats why the engineers at edmunds opics needent concern themselves with luminous intensity. they obviously know about it… it doesnt matter.

you simply get the angle of emission, then you meet or beat that angle… its a secondary consideration how bright you can make the source be. job #1m the only job that matters? is to meert or beat that angle… the rest is just gravy and falls into place.

this design strategy? is ALL OVER the engineering world, in many different disciplines.

you want MORE WATER to make its way out your pump and pipe system? the widest pipe will ALWAYS carry the most water at top level flow. always.

after you get the biggest pipe you can? you can then worry about how big a pump you feed it with or can afford or hook up, or have enough electricity or horsepower to feed it.

top flow? will always be limited by the width of the pipe. always. no exceptions. everything else? is a secondary consideration you later make as best as you can…

our f-number of our lens? is simply the width of pipe.


in HVAC work? if you want to carry the most CFM possible thru a duct? you need the biggest duct possible… no other way in the end. if you use too small of a duct? you need to force feed it with too big and expensive of a fan system.

because you are trying to fit too many fat ladies thru the doorway, and its gumming up the works.

once again? the doorway needs to be as big as possible… later you select the biggest fan you can, based on what you have available. but if you want the most CFM out? your number one consideration is the width of the duct. period.

now, in our system? is not the f-number of the lens… the width of the pipe? the size of the duct? no wonder edmunds optics engineers, chose “numerical aperture” and matching or beating the emission/acceptance angle, as job number one, and really the only job.

after you have the biggest doorway? you can worry about how many fat ladies you can shove thru it per unit of whatever.

it makes… perfect logical design sense.

with guns? some people always want to throw a BIG heavy chunk of lead out, at the expense of slower speed… they think wider and heaver? is job number one.

other people? always want a smaller diameter projectile, lighter… moving obviously faster with the same amount of powder.

these two things are at odds withone another, just like lens diameter and focal length…

how to pick the best dance move? its actually sectional density… which is the relationship of diameter AND velocity, all balled up into one handy unit… the highest sectional density projectile? always has the best “drop tables” and the best “energy dump” and the best observed “killing power”.

lowest f-number? IS the highest sectional density…

the analogy holds once again.

its why the engineers at edmund optics only concerned themselves with it, to model the best illuminator system… its not an important consideration, its the only consideration that matters.

build the biggest doorway possible? you can later on worry how to throw more fat ladies or moonbats through that bigger doorway.

because once we get this firmly into our brains? all of our brains? when we then shift to the pre-collimator system… we get to PICK our “numerical aperture” virtually AT WILL… we get to specify the numeric aperture, out of thin air, by setting the ratio of focal lengths…

it looks to me? like we can set the f-number so low it will accept ANY emission angle we throw at it…

think about it… look at the equations… look at ALL that is there? basically “f number”… then imagine that we get to SET the f-number in the precollimation system? wherever we WANT to… we are obviously going to start at “completely ridiculous” and push it up (actually lower, lol) than anyone anywhere ever thought humanly possible…

our team? is going to throw a touchdown pass, each and everytime it touches the ball.

Sedstar, read it yesterday night before going to sleep, big mistake, sac02 says it perfectly, yet thanks really interesting and insightful
Time for a BLF zoomie :wink:

I contacted edmund optics, and they did confirm that a single aspheric lens with an appropriate surface equation would perform the same as two thinner aspheric lenses for collimation.
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This makes sense, because if they are the same diameter and same (combined) focal distance, it shouldn’t matter if it’s a single or double lens system.
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If you have a wavien collar reducing the light output tot 60 degrees full angle, in order to collect 100% of the light through the lens you need an F ratio of .866 because at 100mm diameter, the distance needs to be 86.6mm in order to have a half angle of 30 degrees.
This can be calculated using a right triangle: Right-Angled Triangle Calculator
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Since the F number is constant, you can then choose whatever the maximum lens diameter you want for the light. Increasing the diameter will increase the focal distance (due to constant F number) and therefore the longer focal distance will lead to less divergence, hence better collimation.
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Making the F number any larger will allow light to be wasted, while making the F number smaller will be wasting part of the lens.
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TLDR: when using a wavien collar, the F number should be .866 for 100% of the light to be collected and no lens area be wasted.
Increasing the diameter = increasing the focal length = decrease divergence = increase throw.
We end up at the same situation of “how large of a lens do you want to fit in your flashlight” :stuck_out_tongue:
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PS you are 100% right, ” F NUMBER is the measure of how much light a lens can transmit”, and with a wavien collar there is no reason to go above or below .866

If you look at camera lenses you see why F number counts

BUT
A 50 f5.6 lens has the same lumens like a
600mm f5.6 lens
The 600mm throws 144 times more and is about that much mor expensive and heavier

An F number without focal lengh says nothing about throw

Sedstar,

How about structuring this whole thing?

Post:

#1: table of content, theorem, explanation basic theory of F etc.
#2: Problem with theorem X, and possible solution to problem
#4: Analogy of problem
#6: testing results, graphs, tables
#8: etc

The more you post, the easier people can see in your first post (table of content) what new things you have added, and what this thread is about… It’s just an idea…

Yup :slight_smile:

wavien collar there is no reason to go above or below .866

well, i mean, thats the HALFangle… lord forbid we try to be greedy and grab more than half the loaf of bread, LMAO…

but, in other news… now you see the holy grail value, of being able to “set” the numerical aperture (which is the f-number with a fake ID) where you WANT IT, by simply selecting the ratio of focal lengths? in the precollimator math model?

you SET your f-number wherever in the &^%$ you want it to BE…

i mean, talk about possibilities…lol

we get the f-number set low enough… you can shove as many moonbats as the emitter can MAKE thru that opening…

then theres… that lens…

looking like something along the lines of 100mm diameter… hes estimating in the one post, over 4.5 inches… closer to 5 inches?

calling an inch roughly 25mm… i get 125mm FL… in a 100mm lens… F 1.25…

but… two of them touching? F .625

which isnt TOO shabby, might work for date night in the barrio? LMAO…

(i took the liberty of starting a “lets see your coolest lenses” thread, ha ha… the boys are already starting to show off their toys they liked playing with… hee hee)

and someone with a highly figured and polishd customized MAG had a surplus shed coated aspheric looked interesting…

of course, 100mm lens? F=.625, thats a strong contender… the SINGLE lens had decent performance for him on his meter… was wondering about whacking the F number in half would do even better…

That’s the lens I used in my lightcanon, and the one I said I couldn’t beat with any other cheap lens.
I have three of them.

and… your waiting for what to occur, to trial two of them touching? next christmas? lol…. roll up a newspaper around two of them and point it at a meter? hee hee… might be moderately impressive performance…

I was gonna try that tonight.
Last night I did it but I used a flashlight with a dying battery so all my results were useless.
I need to use constant current.

Ok so with a single lens the peak was about 460 * 100 lux
Double lens the peak was 380 * 100 lux with a spot about 2x as big

This makes sense, since the focal distance was cut in half.
Using two lenses did collect a lot more lumens, but the intensity wasn’t as high.

Tests were done with an XP-L HI at 6 amps, at 4.1m distance.

thats another property… spot size directly relates to FL… with some data? we should be able to calculate FL simply from spot size with known emitter and distance to target… wink

should be more accurate than reading the website claims… lol

wonder if introducing airgap would bring any intensity back? would bring spot size back down… maybe a sweet spot?

and try front lens flipped around… no stone unturned and all that rot…

Both the ray traces and irl results show
A) flipping the front lens makes it horrible
and
B) moving the lenses farther apart makes the spot a bit smaller and loses more light

I’m asking edmund optics how much it would cost for a custom aspheric, I think it will perform a lot better than these cheap chinese lenses.
If it’s only a couple hundred dollars then I might buy one.

well, thats just not “budget” dang it, lol…

i still think learning to “Set” our own custom F-number/NA with the ratio of focal lengths is whats going to be cool… well, i mean so far, everything is going as predicted, right? its not like we’re doing badly or anything…