The best possible solution would be an ANSI and/or international standards certified testing lab to test samples submitted by manufacturers with certificates issued containing test parameters and results. A copy of the document would be included with each light along with instructions for users to confirm the light contains components claimed. The manufacturer could display a banner on products, packaging, and pages stating it has been tested and certified. It would be an expensive legal nightmare to enforce if a manufacturer were to submit good samples then sell junk but if I ever win the big lotto jackpot I’d pitch in a chunk of it to get such a lab started.
Fooling the testers with fake samples is a traditional business practice.
That’s why Consumer Reports says they buy all their test samples off the shelf at retailers.
That’s also why I trust reviews by people who bought things a whole lot more than reviews by people who were given the things by the manufacturers.
It’s not illegal, mostly, to do that. It’s a very, very common practice.
Look at anything and compare what the first reviewers got with what later buyers got.
Where are the two wrongs? The buyer neither wrote the ad, or substituted the product. If the product is not as advertised should the buyer merely roll over and accept the deception? If fraudulent seller wishes me to ship back his lie then send prepaid postage. I don’t plan on keeping the junk nor pay to return it, I leave that to the seller to decide. Don’t blame a fraud victim.
Ok, I understand about purchased vs submitted. It was an ‘off the top of my head’ idea that would definitely need refinement but allowing manufacturers would be a start with additional confirmational units purchased through retail sources. If a manufacturer submitted a samples and later purchases are the same, no problem. If purchases are inferior to submitted samples, possible deceptive manufacturer. If most of the purchases are comparable to manufacturer with some retailers sending inferior items possible deceptive seller or supplier. Again, just rough ideas.
Nice input!
I agree with trusting reviews of buyers rather over reviews by people who got the samples from sources that benefit from a good review
Couldn’t the market act as benchmark tool?
That is what I mean, if we knowledgeable people point to faults randomly sellers are forced to present the truth (I have no problem with a flashlight with a LB led as long as it is clear it is used so I do not buy it waiting for a Cree light to arrive)
On 1 hand The Miller appears to be gaming the system for personal gain, maybe… will get a good product that can be modded or left stock eventually… This feels like buying a Rolex from a guy in a trench coat who assures me that for $100 it is real.
What I do not understand is the following… I own several genuine Ultrafire and Uniquefire lights, they are very good quality budget lights. I also own a couple of Ultrafire lights that I am sure are not real, thin metal and crap finishes. Why do not the quality manufacturers in China pursue preservation of the companies respect? I doubt that there are any royalties or other such methods of paying the rightful owner of a design, therefore I do not understand the lack of brand preservation.
Personally, I have only ever purchased from Simon’s store on AliExpress and will likey continue to only do so. I know that I get quality products from him. I think that the “stores” must make up their minds to only sell quality and weed out the crap internally. I do not think that being banned from a market place helps the cause. I do think that we could do our part and attempt to communicate with the “store” owners and maybe help them to make better decisions.
I am 50 years old, to me this feels like the modern digital version of what the Japanese may have gone through in their early industrial copy and clone days. In 15-20 years, I think that we may have a different version of and opinion of the Chinese marketplace. I think that some companies are really trying to find their way and some will fail and some will make it in the long run.
Normally, I am a grab your guns and go fix things that are broken kind of guy but I am not sure that we can fix this one. I will still stand by my statement that maybe we can make a difference by communicating with a constant and committed voice when we do find problems or find ourselves in a bad transaction. I suspect that this forum is viewed by folks within many of these companies and I hope that they decide that we are just not a bunch of folks who take a chance to complain about them when we can…
Matt
I think I’ll go buy a Volkswagen Diesel and then claim that it does not meet certain pollution standards because someone in Europe cheated.
Then I will dispute the purchase, get my money back, and keep the vehicle.
SRK or VW … Same dog, sitting up. :davie:
If a seller sends a fake when you’ve carefully selected what you’re buying and from whom (i.e. to maximise the chances of getting the product you paid for) then the cost of rectifying the situation rests with the seller. The seller should have the option of paying to have the product returned to them and the buyer should get a refund.
You could argue that it’s wrong to punish the sellers (since they may be being duped themselves by wholesalers and factories), but they’re in it for the money and its up to them to do their due diligence, i.e. if they do their job well they have earned a living. If they don’t do their job well, i.e. they’re preventing others who are doing the due diligence from legitimately earning an honest living.
Exactly kowshak, and I received word from 1 seller the damages were claimed at the factory and they gotten the money back as well.
well, the pollution emmisions one might not notice, I wonder what you would do if you got a red station with petrol engine delivered when you ordered a blue SUV diesel.
Please tell me, would you pay the same amount or even more the car had costs just to get it pulled off your driveway?
1 - No. Incorrect.
2 - Many members communicate directly with sellers / manufacturers to voice concerns, and try to get them to alter their products and marketing
3 - No matter what anyone says or does there will always be junk sold.
4 - Caveat Emptor
5 - Why would flashlight forum members accept crap being sold ?
I’m thinking that if you held every Chinese seller to their descriptions and specs, there wouldn’t be any Chinese sellers left. I’m all for it though.
How about a list of companies that blacklisted you and/or the ones you’re having disputes with? PayPal is definitely serious about items you buy matching the description. But I wonder if you are going to have your PP account get flagged from so many disputes.
My name is Mr. Typical Consumer, I just recently bought a Convoy C8 flashlight from a typical asian company for the highest retail cost for this product that was advertised as genuine or of the highest quality, but I did no due diligence in researching the product. It is really bright, brighter than my old Maglight, but I have no idea that I purchased a cloned POS. I feel great about the purchase(deceived). After using it a couple times I decide to sell it to my new friend I met a few days ago who knows everything about flashlights. I wanted to impress him with my new Convoy C8 and possibly sell it to him. When I went to show him the flashlight........
So the story goes, I have to say I'm inline with the OP inasmuch as I too am concerned about the problem as stated. However, when presented with the fact I will have to keep both the money and the flashlight after pursuing a claim for a product not as advertised, doesn't sit well with me. Even if I think they deserve it completely for probably knowing what they were selling. I agree with other posters that to try to combat this plague by hitting them in the pocketbook is an exercise in futility and would leave me with an unclean feeling for purposely exercising loopholes in policy for personal gain, payback and retribution or thinking that somehow I will make a difference in making them change their ways. I try to tell and educate as many people I can about the preponderance of deceptive selling techniques overseas or anywhere. I am at least daily going over potential purchases with my wife before she flushes our money down the toilet accidentally.
In the end, I think we can only educate.
I'm curious to know what percentage of the population, those who would buy a flashlight out of necessity or want, knows the difference between a cheap clone and the real article.
Just seems wrong somehow here. Seems like you are the only one getting nothing but consistently bad products from sellers. Sounds a little strange. For sure, you will end up blacklisted, but if that's something to be proud of, then have at it. 90% of the time, asking questions ahead of time and learning about what you are buying, saves issues, but it sounds like you are on a witch hunt. Good luck.
I applaud The Miller. The exaggerated lumins by virtually every vendor is one thing, but lying about the actual emitter (by some vendors) crosses critical line. Lying vendors better straighten up. Or, The Miller gonna get them.
@HereAgainAgain
that is good to know
And your question, we probabky won’t accept it (though I have accepted it for several lights when it still forfilled the purpose I ordered it for, or so cheap it is not worth the fight)
The normal consumers will however and in case of a combo with**fire cells and chea charger this is a concern.
Yes education is key, but most people will not educate themselves over a 1 item buy
@Racer It is not via Paypal, AliExpres has its own dispute system. Just received two messages, refund woth no return for 2 SRKs, AE hanged those disputes to “received counterfeit goods” as well, they really do not like it when sellers do this, it gives the platform a bad name.
Listing the stores? hmm interesting idea. In this topic of a thread in the budgetdeal experience section?
.
.
.
And may be I put thing a tad wrong, if a seller pays for sending something back I will surely do that.
This I tell them also, they choose not to loose an extra 29 for the SRKs.
Also when they do not want to pay for shipping back I tell them they can offer me a refund 2.50 less then I paid.
This amount means the seller still makes money after receiving money back from the provider of the goods and information of it (and the seller will be able to get this I have this confirmed by 1)
OK busy day.
Received word AliExpress has granted refunds for all.
the two last SRKs today.
Interesting since I asked for and said that a partial refund so that the sellers would keep $2,50 I did expect that to be the decisions.
However, for 1 they again changed it to “received couterfeit goods” with full refund no shipping back.
The other they offered tw solutions, 1 full refund and 1 partial refund $2 less. I choose the latter.
These actions show in my pont of view that AliExpress do not like the selling of fake goods, they were more harsh in their verdicts then I asked for. Very nice and confirmation of the good working of the platform.
Thats good news! AE would be even more attractive if they accepted Paypal! The bad part is that AE is flooded with stores selling counterfeits.
China may be changing how they handle counterfeiting.
For the first 15 years of their intro to capitalism they were mostly selling to other countries, and didn’t feel most of the pain of bad copies, while making the profit.
Now their economy is at the point where they have some internal savings and wages allow more of the workers to actually buy some of the things they make.
Thus the flurry of problems being noticed with cellphones and other batteries catching fire, fake milk for babies made with chalk and plastic powder, fake medicines, buildings collapsing because of fake concrete, fast trains falling apart, and presumably also things they don’t allow in the news happening to aircraft and power plants and other heavy equipment.
This is the same transition the USA went through a century and more ago — except the problems are with pharmaceuticals and packaged food and high tech electronics rather than grain and cast iron and hand tools. Perhaps India next, then countries in Africa
Cheap and low quality stuff is sold everywhere, what you are causing is sellers to raise their prices to compensate the loss.
“We have to refund $20 to a customer and he’s keeping the product”
“Ok just raise the price for $1 the next 20 sales”
And let me tell you the reason the items won’t show up in your search anymore is because aliexpress uses a complex algorithm to show you products, there are several “levels” of products displaying and it all depends on your location, search history, shopping history, it also records your IP address and device ID, try searching from another device under another network, you’ll be surprised.
Remember When a Few years ago all counterfeit merchandise was removed? Well this somewhat directly or indirectly caused sales to drop and businesses and factories had to shut down. When the demand/supply ratio raises, prices too.
Now they are running an undercover campaign to incentivate sellers to carry and sell counterfeits again, of course these items won’t display in a desktop browser logged in with a regular account, if you know what I mean.
A friend of mine works very closely with many suppliers in China and Aliexpress is full of dirty secrets, most of them good for the budget market.
BTW you won’t be blacklisted from aliexpress as whole, you just won’t find or able to buy the cheap stuff.
Thanks for the insightful posts guys!
I am going to scratch my head for a while and try checking out some things with proxy’s and different IP addresses later on.