Tesla have gone down one path, using hundreds of “standard” cylindrical cells, crammed into every space available in the floorpan etc. giving them a cost, time to market, and performance advantage compared with…
Mainstream manufacturers, e.g. Nissan and BMW, who are in this for the long term, and have developed, and continue to develop bespoke battery packs, which look nothing like a random bunch of cells fitted in wherever. Proper cooling, and pre-warming for low temperature, and replaceable/recyclable as a modular package, perhaps with a multi-year performance guarantee, and/or a lease whereby they are replaced once performance degrades.
Though no-one recycles lithium cells yet (except in demo. pilot plants), it is still cheaper just to make new ones.
Not as sexy for performance (but some BMWs are pretty good).
To replace the cells on a Tesla perhaps requires the whole car to be taken to bits, if it is even do-able.
I generally run my cars for at least ten years, which is about average in the EU, not sure these electric buggies would last that long yet, or just be limping along for local trips only…
I would think you’d have to pull the cathode, anode, and separator wraps out of each and weigh them, instead of weighing the metal cans. Someone like HKJ or Mooch could talk about it more intelligently than me.! But I know it’s basically the same chemistry. I have some Samsung 25r cells that are 20amp 2500mah that weigh roughly the same as the GA. Less capacity but double the amperage.
It’s a single pack that sits along the entire bottom of the vehicle. They are not “crammed everywhere”
The Tesla’s pack has an 8 year warranty and i’m pretty sure like you said every mfg warranties it at least to some extent.
They have a prototype battery “swapping” station which has a mechanical device change it in 90 seconds, hardly taken to bits or impossible
Pretty sure all of this is still in its infancy as Tesla, Nissan, BMW haven’t even had mainstream electric models long enough for this issue to even peak. There’s no reason you shouldn’t be able to replace these packs affordably in 8+ years (for all mfg’s probably…). Tesla even announced a plan where you pre-pay 8k to 12k and and get a whole new battery after 8 years. While I think this is stupid they obviously are betting that battery prices fall to this level…
Nevertheless, Tesla are going in one direction, maximum packaging with cylindrical cells in the entire floorpan, whilst mainstream car makers stick to the old formula and try to fit in battery packs wherever there is space in their traditional designs that also take ICE power-trains. (under the bonnet, or boot, or seats).
Tesla don’t have that legacy to protect, and are doing things their way.
Good luck to them for shaking things up, and hopefully goodbye to stupid hybrids, once the technology and charging networks mature.
This makes sense - it’s possible they just padded the cell with more of a wrapper to fit the common AA size but kept capacity lower to keep costs down.
Update, from The Times today (paywalled, so copied below, don’t sue me)
Tesla shares crash after Musk outburst
James Dean, US Business Editor
May 4 2018, 12:01am,
The Times
Technology
Elon Musk has had to contend with production problems with the Model 3 car
Elon Musk has had to contend with production problems with the Model 3 car
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Ill-tempered comments by Elon Musk, the boss of Tesla, triggered a sell-off in the electric carmaker’s shares yesterday, wiping about $3 billion from its value.
On an earnings call after Tesla reported its fifth consecutive record loss on Wednesday night Mr Musk, the billionaire technology entrepreneur, described questions from financial analysts as “bonehead” and “dry”.
Adam Jonas, an analyst at Morgan Stanley, who was on the call, said it was “arguably the most unusual call I have experienced in 20 years”.
In Silicon Valley Mr Musk is revered for his brains but feared for his temper. He often vents his anger at his critics on Twitter and is supported by an army of loyal followers who believe he is trying to change the world for the better.
Tesla’s main business is selling electric cars, although it also makes batteries for home and industrial use and solar power systems. The company’s shares closed down 5.6 per cent at $284.45 in New York last night, valuing the company at $48.1 billion, with analysts suggesting the decline showed that Wall Street was running out of patience with Tesla.
Mr Musk took issue with technical questions from analysts about Tesla’s profit margins, cashflow and customer reservations for its new Model 3 saloon, which is expected to be on Britain’s roads next year, at a cost of £35,000 for a basic model. After venting his anger at two analysts, Mr Musk turned to a 25-year-old You Tube blogger and Tesla enthusiast who was allowed to ask questions for 23 minutes.
Tesla has struggled to ramp up production of the Model 3, its first mass-market car and the key to its future, because of what Mr Musk described as “manufacturing hell”. In the past few months he has become increasingly frustrated with his detractors, who point to a series of missed production targets and finances that are becoming increasingly squeezed.
Tesla’s shares have fallen by 26.6 per cent from a high of $385 in September, when the company was valued higher than General Motors, America’s largest carmaker.
Apparently those analysts were Tesla short-stock guys who asked a question that had been answered in a letter sent out beforehand.
Not that it excuses anything. ;)
From that same conference, Elon also mentioned about the trouble with excessive use of automation(troubles with a "fluff robot") and that they've recently gone from 7 hours of work per Model 3 battery pack to 70 minutes.
Sometimes you can’t speak the truth, but I like that Musk did. He should have better control though, and as head of the company he does have a lot to answer for on the Model 3 rollout. Hopefully it won’t be much longer until things are really flowing. He’s already inspired more electric cars from other vendors and I’m sure has influenced the recent larger battery packs in like the Volt. I’m looking to see what the Leaf will have for 2019, and hoping the rumors are true.
Nissan may be in it for the long haul, but the Leaf’s battery pack got many things wrong.
And the expectation that Tesla and other early EVs battery packs will be toast in a decade sounds like a rerun of the savvy concerns about the Prius. Those predictions didn’t pan out, either. Infact, salvagers who’d been stockpiling packs from wrecks liquidated most of their inventory because the predicted demand just wasn’t there.
As for recycling, it’s inevitable, unless someone figures out a substitute for cobalt. My understanding is that power (not energy) density is directly tied to the amount of cobalt used. They’ll start with the larger packs.
They have even removed the battery capacity meter from the latest Leaf, so it is more difficult for the owner to monitor the degradation.
They need to get a grip on this, depreciation is fierce, a second hand Leaf in the UK depreciates by 76.8% over 3 years/36000 miles. Losing the first owner £21,793. I.e. over 60p per mile.
Edit: or £20 per day.
Possibly making a second hand Leaf a bargain for a shrewd buyer, but that’s not the way they are perceived here in the UK (where they are made).
As the UK’s most popular EV, rightly or wrongly, this poor reputation rubs off on other manufacturers too.
The Prius is a different animal, using a small NiMh battery, with a range of only “up to” 39 miles for even
the plug-in version, reality is that many Priuses operate using the engine most of the time, so the duty cycle on the battery is very different from a pure EV.
The Prius is immensely popular for taxi and private hire in the UK, because gullible Council officials have bought into the idea that they are “Eco”, and either insist on them, or give them un-refusable discounts, or exempt them from congestion charges, and low-emissions zones.Whereas every taxi or private hire driver (I use them a lot) with a Prius, acknowledges that they are a rubbish idea, when they are driving 100 or 200 miles/day, or more, the pathetic ’leccy motor contributes nothing, meanwhile they drive a not very good petrol car, dragging around a load of unnecessary mass. Still, the economics add up for them, so they continue in service. A cynical ploy to get around the rules, and claim nonsensical CO2 and mpg figures, the sooner the “hybrids” die, the better.