You miscomprehend things, as many posters here. This crisis is not Greece crisis. Its world (economical, and politicxal) crisis.
And I have seen that some posters know its cause, if only in general. Some dont - some are not well informed, or like to believe that its not etc.
It can even be said thatsome people are rather blind. To them its normal that there are starvbing in the world, its normaln that their country has millions of homeless people, as long theey have their fridge full.
But when it gets harder and harder to “fill their own fridge”, than they start to realize that some things, and systems, are not normal nor good.
Thats how we learn
When we vote we agree to go with the results whether we win or lose . . if the results are to pay for mistakes, then pay we should. A revolt or riot doesn’t improve financial standings, it changes the people in charge . . seldom are people using force the people who will better society for others and the community. Our problem is we don’t look for and insist we have civil servants instead of rock stars with a teleprompter. Then we don’t hold them accountable at the next election. It is time to do so.
Sure it’s possible . . even without outside funds. The issue is whether the people will recognize their own collective responsibility and accept their consequences. More outside money is usually a crutch that is hard to ever give up. Most simply don’t want to live within their means when they recognize it means living on less until they learn to produce more. This is the lesson that socialists don’t want to live or teach.
Yeah, very serious and civilized thread.
Trust me, I know it is not a country or two.
I have been wondering, if every penny out in circulation is already borrowed money from banks (with interest, private banks), how could it ever be that things just went smooth?
Isn’t it just a question of time, when the system needs a reset?
Well, look, things went smooth only if you are talking about western countries. For rest of the world, this system never went smooth, far from it.
So, thats connected too.
This is the very truth. Some more bried truths:
This crisis is more obvious in smaller countries, and already spreading to bigger ones. Let's get something straight here. Noone is lending money for free. Most of the money Greece gets, are getting back to the EU to pay off loans. A small portion of the money stays in the country to cover pensions, social insurance etc etc. This is from a New York Times article. Mind you, Greece didn't start the crisis as some people think, but being a small country we are just the first patient to exhibit symptoms...
Also, we have made a lot of progress to control and reform our finance, budgeting, public sector etc, but unfortunately EU is asking for more sacrifices where already most people don't have to pay the extra taxes we are forced to pay. Hell, official unemployment run at about 22%, and there are suicides every day.
You know what happens when you think that austerity is the solution, like Merkel wants to think? Democratic people start shifting to extremities, so the left wing is gaining ground here (same in Italy and France), and also the extremists, some people call them neonazis. Because you oppress people with taxation, people want to riot, and extremists take advantage of such situations.
As I said earlier, although Germany is profiting for the time being from a weak euro because it is benefiting the exports, few people have realized that the ifo business climate index in Germany is continuously falling, which means that the industry and trade are not doing well. So even the bigger countries will get in trouble later. And yes, this will go global, will not stay only in Europe.
What is commonly agreed in Europe is that there are no politicians of stature that could handle the crisis properly. What is hypothesized among citizens is that the crisis is directed, and everything is about money. You make your run test with a smaller country, see how it fans out, how the people react, what the results are, and then you go bigger. No matter of the efforts, countries will fail because the plan is such. There will be small and big loosers when the crisis is finished, and small and big gainers.
Yes, now I remembered that extremist party in Greece. Its disgusting. But that same mindset is pressent in part of the people in all coutnries.
I aggree. Its like that for many years. Events just happen to fast for them, and they are too slow in reactions, and lose control.
I think what is needed is understanding the casuses, and vision (among other things)
You didn’t address the point about the agriculture farming. That’s ok, I wasn’t really expecting you to. 
You’re just asserting that the market economy doesn’t work, assertion is not a subtitle for an actual argument!
Go back to my farming example and see for yourself what happened to the surplus of workers after the farming industry became drastically more efficient.
Market is nothing but the relation of us the people and our hard work and our creativity and our greed. Market doesn’t exist, it’s the people who participate in it and make the decisions, that’s pretty self evident. People respond to incentives and therefore act differently under different economical system which changes the incentives.
wow, so you can see in the future? That’s just more assertion without any supporting facts and evidence, therefore I don’t see anything to address here.
Market has to send signals that it no longer needs as many workers with shovels because bulldozers are just much more efficient and safer. You would only think you’re being punished if you don’t understand the system! I certainly didn’t feel being punished when I realized fixing copiers and fax machines is no longer a viable career for me since computers and internet made everything more efficient. I didn’t feel entitled to do the same job forever and ever. When people didn’t need my service anymore or as much, it was time to learn something new. One could say that market changed my career, but really people did it and they were damn right to do so.
To tell you the truth, it’s Socialism and coercion that’s really like steroids because you keep spending other people’s money while discouraging them to make more of it and eventually you will run out of their money and now have to deal with the consequences of life, at this point market tries to correct the imbalances but ironically market gets all the blame and people look for more democracy to fix the problem caused by democracy.
Let’s assume all of this is true - if a country is making debt payments larger than it’s internal social costs for taking care of promises to its own people it has gone way over the edge of reasonable debt management. That is not anybody else’s fault but the people who elected the politicians who got them there; and the solutions are internal problems.
When you go that far with bad debt management, you have to break promises and that fault lays with the voters, including some who receive social payments. But the solutions are still the same: spend less, produce more, and/or sell off part of your assets to pay of your debt.
Now, if a country’s voters want to break promises to outsiders, then it loses its history and honor and forces their economic problem on others. This risks its very sovereignty and solutions might end up being imposed on them, anyway.
That other countries have the same problem doesn’t change the facts or choices.
I have been fortunate (except for the combat part 
) to have visited/had duty on three continents while in the Military. Generally speaking, the people I met were decent, hard working individuals just like you find everywhere else on the planet. Are there some bad people? Yep - you find them everywhere.
That said, Greece has the same problem that many nations have had for decades and the U.S. is leaning that way these days too. Popularity contest winners (elected officials) that will give everything away simply to stay in power and be popular. Who doesn’t like free stuff? The problem is that it’s only free for those that never worked for it in that first place. In the name of “fairness”, they (politicians) rob from the productive and give to the unproductive. A totally unsustainable plan that has always ended in total failure. Can anybody name a successful country that operates that way? I can’t think of a single one.
The biggest problem is that the productive people that have their money taken away only to see it given to those that are willfully unproductive, eventually, run out of money to take. 10-11=FAIL.
GottaZoom said: “Taking more loans than can be paid is neither, it is taking a hamburger today with a promise to pay next Tuesday and then saying oops when Tuesday comes.” I simply call it the “Wimpy Syndrome” (reference to Popeye).
Both directions are choices. One ultimately wins by deferring gratification and saving to fund one’s own goals, but that takes self-discipline and self-denial to achieve.
A false generalization. If cheese is 20% air and doubles the air has to become 80+% of the total for it to be correct . . far to extreme to be useful as any realistic example.
Even if your example was correct, those who like big cheese can make/buy it and those who don’t get to go make/buy their own small cheese. If some people want to overpay for big cheese full of air, good for them cause we’ll sell to them while making our own small cheese to consume.
And specifics are even simpler than examples. Loans are made based on the specific mutually agreed ability to repay. Debt contracts have payment specific terms negotiated based on the repayment ability. Spending the money dedicated to repay the loans on anything else leads to not making loan payments if there is no surplus sitting in the treasury. Not making the specified loan payments is default of a promise. If somebody is spending money twice and breaking promises, the problem falls to the people who give them that authority and they take the consequences of their own agent’s over-spending. Promises by a new leader are not solutions (and questionable since the past promises were false). Deferring payments makes the problem bigger. Solutions that allocate cash already being collected to pay the loan are the solution. What is left is what can be spent internally. Very simple. Not easy, but simple. Complex are the arguments trying to avoid what is honest and simple.
The amount of money we get and the amount of money we have to pay back, is defined by those who loan us money, and not by us. And of course the way the money is going to be spend internally also has to be approved beforehand by the nice people who lend us the money. Actually we don't do whatever we please, right now we are being dictated what to do in almost everything.
If you are referring to public sector spending, then as I mentioned earlier there has been drastic cuts in the public sector and in the goverment in general, if you are referring to people spending money, well people don't have money anymore, I don't need to point out what happens when the internal market doesn't "move"... as for producing more... here comes austerity, and this is what we are all talking about. That austerity is a failure and many in Europe are shouting that growth needs to be encouraged through various projects, but this will not happen unless the austerity plan is abandoned...
:bigsmile:
And your point is what, exactly? That is what happens when countries take a deal and then don’t make the previously agreed payments. For individuals it is like garnishment of wages for failure to pay. The law steps in to say it is going to hurt but you borrowed the money so payments will be made. It is part of the original deal, whether you like it now - or not.
Take their terms, borrow from someone else with a better offer if you can find it, pay them back.
Would you like to lend me money in an amount and with terms I determine unilaterally? If so, please PM me you banking details and I’ll let you know after I’ve decided and borrowed both existing and future funds.
Again, the initial loan terms were mutually negotiated - these are consequences of being too deep in debt. If you’re better off without any loans you find acceptable, sell some public assets and pay them off and be done with borrowing.
If you want freedom, do whatever it takes to get out of debt and then stay that way. But at least recognize that you’re living with the exact situation your own government created by its willingness to make you debt slaves as it deferred and deferred the debt till it as large as it is now.
You’re not alone - my own country is well down the path do the same thing to our children and grand-children. Blaming the lenders is the LEAST productive way to manage a country’s finances. Personally, I will vote against EVERY incumbent who has not convinced me as a citizen that they take seriously the importance of eliminating debt - IMO this is job #1 and they are not doing their elected job if they do not do so.
Call . .
I would gladly go on holiday in Greece
Considering the other options:
- Montenegro -> greedy and filthy,
- Croatia -> too expensive…
Yes, agreed…
Events happen too fast for them and many of elected lack proper professional knowledge of things they are supposed to deal with.
Which country are you from? You are missing the whole point with the lending... lenders don't give you money out of the kindness of their heart. There is always something to gain. In this case there is more than money to gain, but I will not go into details, the reasons are commonly known. The problem is that although the debt getting lower and so on, the measures being taken are much more than what people can handle, and it's not just Greece who says this (austerity). On one hand, Greek government could let's say tax the Church (loads of tax free property and billions of money there), could tax the people who have money to pay. But show me a country who taxes the rich, since politicians rely on the rich. (Also show me a political party who keeps all of their pre-election promises and they don't change after they get elected). Sure we feel that most of politicians need public hanging for the choices they made in the past. On the other hand, and this is the important thing, is that we are showing to the lenders the progress we made, and we are telling them what is feasible in order to pay back the money. Now the lenders don't want to hear about it. Again I will remind you that many (even Obama) are saying that the lenders are going the wrong way with it. Ask yourself why now, and what interest it serves... you known how you control people or a nation? Inflicting one or more of the following: poverty, fear, demoralization...
So once again, yes debt is being eliminated but not in the smart way...
The folks in this thread do the ‘human’ race ‘PROUD!’ Cone (Libertarian that he is) posted a vid that can be summed up with these words> talk, think, act! The powers that be do not want us practicing this principle as they want us chasing our collective tails……….arguing, finger pointing at one another (not at the real problem) BLAH,BLAH,BLAH which stops the talking, which kills the thinking, in turn stopping any potential action. This thread is (INTELLIGENTLY) touching on most every issue that plagues man kind today. But all of these things so eloquently put forth, are merely symptoms of the disease. The disease contains three words. We (the people) are collectively practicing like the medical system whereby we look at, treat/manage the symptoms, but leave the disease running rampant! Treat the disease & the symptoms will ‘go away!’ You folks have named many/most of the symptoms but not the ‘disease.’ BTW, I am not referencing anything religious in this equation (that’s another issue which deserves it’s own thread but I won’t go there). As an aside, my deceased son worked for a ‘fine’ Greek family (industrial coatings) that have for decades worked toward going back to Greece but have nixed that plan :(!!! Also, there will be no country left untouched by this disease! A great book (the Bible) tells of the economic collapse of the whole world. Coming to a neighborhood near you/us. I am not trying to appear wiser/smarter then anyone here…………just endeavoring to stimulate thinking.
Keith
I see a number of the later posts referring to poverty, handouts, entitlement etc. Is this specific to native population or result of a open borders and emigration laws? Im guessing the 2nd…Im curious to hear your comments